btt

[stslimited]

K, thanks. Americans please do not buy any virtual shares, it's bad...or may be at some point in the future.

Perfect.

For those that think this is inadequate there's always this mess:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=75802.2360

I'm not interested in following that path.

If that's settled, I'd like to stay on topic please. That being mining hardware.

haha okay guess thats settled then, lol. I just wanted to ask how you were dealing with it, and was surprised to see that you were ignoring it, thats all.



how do you handle buying bfl preorders? if you were to. I dont understand how the exchange would work

[creativex]

how do you handle buying bfl preorders? if you were to. I dont understand how the exchange would work

Not following, is it no longer possible to pay with Bitcoins?

[stslimited]

how do you handle buying bfl preorders? if you were to. I dont understand how the exchange would work

Not following, is it no longer possible to pay with Bitcoins?

not that, its about how do you keep people accountable in pre-order resales

like do they give you their BFL login/password and change the shipping address? I don't really see how escrow would be helpful for all legs of the exchange etc. this is more so curiousity because I see alot of other ppl doing it

[matt4054]

I will dare to sound a bit rude on this one, but here's my thought on buying BFL pre-orders:

While I believe that BFL *might* eventually (like in a year or so) ship either was they promised or not-that-much-what-they-promised-but-better-than-nothing, I have good reasons to think that they may fail completely and never deliver anything, and the primary reasons for this wouldn't be technical reasons.

The current business conduct of BFL and/or Josh is unacceptable. What would you expect from a business that has failed to deliver their pre-orders for almost one year? You would expect them to stop taking MORE, NEW pre-orders, wouldn't you?

Second, Josh seems to spend a considerable time fighting back libel and/or insulting those who insult him, like if he were a kid in school fighting back others "that have started it". This is not business behavior, but rather childish.

Possible outcomes could be someone going really crazy about the whole thing and shutting them down completely with legal lawsuits. This is a much more probable outcome in my opinion than what others seem to think on the forum. And as much as I would hate that, if things go to awry for them and it gets really personal, someone too angry could go beyond reason and physically attack him (even shoot him down). This is the main reason why I think they pretend their most expensive "Mini-Rig" to be soldout, they don't want to take the risk of holding too much money from the same man.

These are the reasons why I think buying BFL pre-orders from people tired of waiting is a bad investment.

[creativex]

how do you handle buying bfl preorders? if you were to. I dont understand how the exchange would work

Not following, is it no longer possible to pay with Bitcoins?

not that, its about how do you keep people accountable in pre-order resales

like do they give you their BFL login/password and change the shipping address? I don't really see how escrow would be helpful for all legs of the exchange etc. this is more so curiousity because I see alot of other ppl doing it

Both BFL and Avalon have stated that they'll not change shipping addresses for pre-orders already placed there's no reliable mechanism in place to efficiently change shipping addresses. That being the case I believe it's a mistake to purchase someone else's pre-order. As a result of this I haven't spent a great deal of time hypothesizing on how best to do this, but I think it'd depend on the level of trust established with the original purchaser of the pre-ordered gear. Escrow-ed funds + two instances of shipping would likely be the safest method.

[parseval]

Some nice volume and price increase here.  I hope it keeps up!

Here's a chart (warning, dev server in alpha):

http://coinflow.co/chart/BASIC-MINING

Gorgeous chart, really nice work. Tip sent.

Edit: Going over the chart reminded me that I'd intended to change my contact email from att.net servers to broadstripe.net servers as att.net has been unreliable of late. I've asked burnside to make this change.

Shareholders, please contact me at creativex@broadstripe.net if you need to reach me or simply PM me here. I'm occasionally slow, particularly on weekends, but I'll get back to you.

OP updated to reflect this change.

Thanks for the tip, I appreciate it!

I updated the email on my side here, too, though it should pull from the API automagically every once in a while as it updates the contract data.   The site's still in alpha, so I hope I can make it even more useful in the future.  Feedback like what I've read in this thread helps.

[creativex]

I will dare to sound a bit rude on this one, but here's my thought on buying BFL pre-orders:

While I believe that BFL *might* eventually (like in a year or so) ship either was they promised or not-that-much-what-they-promised-but-better-than-nothing, I have good reasons to think that they may fail completely and never deliver anything, and the primary reasons for this wouldn't be technical reasons.

The current business conduct of BFL and/or Josh is unacceptable. What would you expect from a business that has failed to deliver their pre-orders for almost one year? You would expect them to stop taking MORE, NEW pre-orders, wouldn't you?

Second, Josh seems to spend a considerable time fighting back libel and/or insulting those who insult him, like if he were a kid in school fighting back others "that have started it". This is not business behavior, but rather childish.

Possible outcomes could be someone going really crazy about the whole thing and shutting them down completely with legal lawsuits. This is a much more probable outcome in my opinion than what others seem to think on the forum. And as much as I would hate that, if things go to awry for them and it gets really personal, someone too angry could go beyond reason and physically attack him (even shoot him down). This is the main reason why I think they pretend their most expensive "Mini-Rig" to be soldout, they don't want to take the risk of holding too much money from the same man.

These are the reasons why I think buying BFL pre-orders from people tired of waiting is a bad investment.

I share your concerns about BFL.

[CanadianGuy]

Avalon has the same great opportunity that BFL has -- why ship out something to your customers if you can plug it in and double your ROI?  Sell it to them after the difficulty climbs up 2x.  Wouldn't you do the same?  This inevitable business strategy that comes from these mining companies causes dreamers like creativex to sit back waiting for someone to sell him a golden shovel.  Nobody will sell you a golden shovel, dude.  If someone had a supply of ASIC chips that were 4x cheaper than eruptor blades, they WOULDN'T let you have them!  It would be like giving away free money, you would be insane to think that you might be able to get some -- stop dreaming!

[matt4054]

Avalon has the same great opportunity that BFL has -- why ship out something to your customers if you can plug it in and double your ROI?  Sell it to them after the difficulty climbs up 2x.  Wouldn't you do the same?  This inevitable business strategy that comes from these mining companies causes dreamers like creativex to sit back waiting for someone to sell him a golden shovel.  Nobody will sell you a golden shovel, dude.  If someone had a supply of ASIC chips that were 4x cheaper than eruptor blades, they WOULDN'T let you have them!  It would be like giving away free money, you would be insane to think that you might be able to get some -- stop dreaming!

So what do you suggest? Buy AM Blades? I voted for it, but many more voted against it and the motion will be refused.

The other motion, for purchasing an existing AVALON (batch 1 or 2) from secondary market, is much more likely to be accepted. I also voted for it, but who will sell it for less than say 200 BTC right now? That makes it about the same pricetag as 4 Blades (about 4*12.5 = 50 GH/s). But the Blades do ship immediately. Do all the people who vote NO to the Blades and YES to the Avalon realize this? I'm not sure.

[creativex]

Avalon has the same great opportunity that BFL has -- why ship out something to your customers if you can plug it in and double your ROI?  Sell it to them after the difficulty climbs up 2x.  Wouldn't you do the same?  This inevitable business strategy that comes from these mining companies causes dreamers like creativex to sit back waiting for someone to sell him a golden shovel.  Nobody will sell you a golden shovel, dude.  If someone had a supply of ASIC chips that were 4x cheaper than eruptor blades, they WOULDN'T let you have them!  It would be like giving away free money, you would be insane to think that you might be able to get some -- stop dreaming!

Thanks for another valuable post.

Please see this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140539.0

...and this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=146451.0

...and this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137534.0

...and this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141154.0

[CanadianGuy]

Avalon has the same great opportunity that BFL has -- why ship out something to your customers if you can plug it in and double your ROI?  Sell it to them after the difficulty climbs up 2x.  Wouldn't you do the same?  This inevitable business strategy that comes from these mining companies causes dreamers like creativex to sit back waiting for someone to sell him a golden shovel.  Nobody will sell you a golden shovel, dude.  If someone had a supply of ASIC chips that were 4x cheaper than eruptor blades, they WOULDN'T let you have them!  It would be like giving away free money, you would be insane to think that you might be able to get some -- stop dreaming!

Thanks for another valuable post.

Please see this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140539.0

...and this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=146451.0

...and this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137534.0

...and this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=141154.0

Nah.. i just wanted to say all that, without caring if it has been discussed before..

[creativex]

Nah.. i just wanted to say all that, without caring if it has been discussed before..

Thanks again for your contribution. Does that mean you didn't notice that I linked to threads with posts written by people that have received batch 1 & 2 Avalon mining gear?

[CanadianGuy]

Nah.. i just wanted to say all that, without caring if it has been discussed before..

Thanks again for your contribution. Does that mean you didn't notice that I linked to threads with posts written by people that have received batch 1 & 2 Avalon mining gear?

so there has been a total of 4 so far?  out of how many orders, hundreds?
Shipping only a few out only proves they are trying to appear legit.  I'll believe it when they actually ship on a regular basis.

[creativex]

You mean because I posted four threads? No, actually there are multiple posts within those threads.

[matt4054]

so there has been a total of 4 so far?  out of how many orders, hundreds?
Shipping only a few out only proves they are trying to appear legit.  I'll believe it when they actually ship on a regular basis.

I don't want to be rude, but you seem totally uninformed about AVALON ASICs and how many were shipped. If you actually bothered to take the time and read the threads that CreativeX has kindly referenced here, you would realize that there are already HUNDREDs of these machines hashing right now as you wrote. Not 4!

It looks like you are in pure denial here.

[malona82]

Buying the blades is a great idea.  I don't understand the point of many of the people on here and their concerns with it.  There isn't any investment that will be out there that will benefit us like the blades will.  Do you all realize that the prices of asics will only come down as difficulty rises.  That's the supply demand side of this.  I would rather us spend 500 BTC on something that will return the 500 btc after lets say 6 months and then from there on we have mining capacity for life.  If you keep waiting we will never have any mining capacity other then the 2 avalons that will ship when?  There is zero reason for us not to buy the blades.  People keep looking at this as if we are getting some massive interest rate on the BTC in hand.  We don't.  Do every 3 weeks that we don't spend it means the difficulty rises and ROI shrinks.  You have to look at it in a better way which is we pay the going rate now which will be the same ROI as if we wait x days til a supposed better opportunity arrives.  In all honesty after 1 year of mining all investors will be paid back their initial investment as well as the company can reinstate the growth policy and it will be completely refilled.  I mean come on.  Why are people so gung ho about keeping 1k BTC in the coffers for some opportunity that has never arrived?  The blades are a great way to put the mining company mining.  I mean seriously, i've spent $3k USD on mining equipment and i'm mining 2x as much as BASIC is.  Time to put the money to work that investors have invested 200k on. 

[malona82]

I'll just do some quick numbers which I know all of you have done.  But when we are talking about a company here with this size of resources we should really be thinking about putting this to work.  anyway.  Lets say we AVG .225 which is 1/2 of what we would be getting today over the next year which should be looked at as pretty conservative because we know we would get much more then that over the next 2 or 3 months without any doubt.  but that would be .225x365 =82.5 per blade.  that's 50% profit in just 1 year.  and the great thing is, all the investors would be paid back and the company would be paid back 32 of the 50 it spend just in the first year.  now lets assume avg .1 btc a day in year 2.  that's another 36 btc.  and again we still have the mining capacity.  it's obviously going to drop as time goes on and there is some uncertainty.  but i'd rather us buy this now so we know we'll get a payback then wait a year and hope that some better opportunity arrives.

The fact is that there haven't been many opportunities out there that will give such good returns.  And surely if there is a company out there that can make better products they surely won't be selling them until it no longer benefits them to use the product themselves.  There is a reason ASICMINER is selling their equip and it's based on their own hash rate.  They need to increase the network hash to increase their own.  anyway.  Lets not overlook this as a real alternative to hope and prayer.  I see that there is already a strong bias against this but I advise strongly to rethink because there aren't that many opportunities out there and yet we all the the asic companies springing up but none deliver.  There is more risk in waiting on them then just do it now with what we have been presented to us now.  We can be a real powerhouse in the mining arena and at this point blades are our best bet.  As time goes on we will restock the coffers with profits from the blades and payback investors while we wait for these supposed great opportunities which we will be fighting every tom dick and harry for.  Lets do this now and get ahead of the game instead of being right along side the BFL folks.

[creativex]

Buying the blades is a great idea.  I don't understand the point of many of the people on here and their concerns with it.  There isn't any investment that will be out there that will benefit us like the blades will.  Do you all realize that the prices of asics will only come down as difficulty rises.  That's the supply demand side of this.  I would rather us spend 500 BTC on something that will return the 500 btc after lets say 6 months and then from there on we have mining capacity for life.  If you keep waiting we will never have any mining capacity other then the 2 avalons that will ship when?  There is zero reason for us not to buy the blades.  People keep looking at this as if we are getting some massive interest rate on the BTC in hand.  We don't.  Do every 3 weeks that we don't spend it means the difficulty rises and ROI shrinks.  You have to look at it in a better way which is we pay the going rate now which will be the same ROI as if we wait x days til a supposed better opportunity arrives.  In all honesty after 1 year of mining all investors will be paid back their initial investment as well as the company can reinstate the growth policy and it will be completely refilled.  I mean come on.  Why are people so gung ho about keeping 1k BTC in the coffers for some opportunity that has never arrived?  The blades are a great way to put the mining company mining.  I mean seriously, i've spent $3k USD on mining equipment and i'm mining 2x as much as BASIC is.  Time to put the money to work that investors have invested 200k on. 

Thanks for posting malona82. bASIC-MINING has deployed nearly 200BTC to purchase mining gear, and this does not include the original BTCFPGA order on which the company was founded. I share your enthusiasm and I too am tired of waiting. We have motions up for voting to reach a consensus on which path to follow at this time.

Since you mentioned specific time frames in your post, may I ask why you chose 6 months as a break even date for an ASICMiner blade purchase? There are so many variables that go into such an estimate, I'm curious how you arrived at this number.

500BTC spent on blades would realistically yield us 110-120Gh/s or 28-31Mh/s/share while the Avalons purchased for 176.73BTC will yield us between 152-156Gh/s or 39-40Mh/s/share. Time will tell if the large premium being paid for ASICMiner blades over Avalon gear is worth it or not. Either way I will abide by whatever shareholders decide with these motions.

Cheers.  

[creativex]

I'll just do some quick numbers which I know all of you have done.  But when we are talking about a company here with this size of resources we should really be thinking about putting this to work.  anyway.  Lets say we AVG .225 which is 1/2 of what we would be getting today over the next year which should be looked at as pretty conservative because we know we would get much more then that over the next 2 or 3 months without any doubt.  but that would be .225x365 =82.5 per blade.  that's 50% profit in just 1 year.  and the great thing is, all the investors would be paid back and the company would be paid back 32 of the 50 it spend just in the first year.  now lets assume avg .1 btc a day in year 2.  that's another 36 btc.  and again we still have the mining capacity.  it's obviously going to drop as time goes on and there is some uncertainty.  but i'd rather us buy this now so we know we'll get a payback then wait a year and hope that some better opportunity arrives.

The fact is that there haven't been many opportunities out there that will give such good returns.  And surely if there is a company out there that can make better products they surely won't be selling them until it no longer benefits them to use the product themselves.  There is a reason ASICMINER is selling their equip and it's based on their own hash rate.  They need to increase the network hash to increase their own.  anyway.  Lets not overlook this as a real alternative to hope and prayer.  I see that there is already a strong bias against this but I advise strongly to rethink because there aren't that many opportunities out there and yet we all the the asic companies springing up but none deliver.  There is more risk in waiting on them then just do it now with what we have been presented to us now.  We can be a real powerhouse in the mining arena and at this point blades are our best bet.  As time goes on we will restock the coffers with profits from the blades and payback investors while we wait for these supposed great opportunities which we will be fighting every tom dick and harry for.  Lets do this now and get ahead of the game instead of being right along side the BFL folks.

I'm not able to give your numbers my full attention at this time, but rather than being conservative, I think your assertion that we'd average .225/day/blade or 2.25BTC/day for 10 blades over the course of a full year is rather optimistic. Thank you for the detailed post, and I look forward to giving it the attention it deserves in the near future.

Cheers.

[malona82]

Buying the blades is a great idea.  I don't understand the point of many of the people on here and their concerns with it.  There isn't any investment that will be out there that will benefit us like the blades will.  Do you all realize that the prices of asics will only come down as difficulty rises.  That's the supply demand side of this.  I would rather us spend 500 BTC on something that will return the 500 btc after lets say 6 months and then from there on we have mining capacity for life.  If you keep waiting we will never have any mining capacity other then the 2 avalons that will ship when?  There is zero reason for us not to buy the blades.  People keep looking at this as if we are getting some massive interest rate on the BTC in hand.  We don't.  Do every 3 weeks that we don't spend it means the difficulty rises and ROI shrinks.  You have to look at it in a better way which is we pay the going rate now which will be the same ROI as if we wait x days til a supposed better opportunity arrives.  In all honesty after 1 year of mining all investors will be paid back their initial investment as well as the company can reinstate the growth policy and it will be completely refilled.  I mean come on.  Why are people so gung ho about keeping 1k BTC in the coffers for some opportunity that has never arrived?  The blades are a great way to put the mining company mining.  I mean seriously, i've spent $3k USD on mining equipment and i'm mining 2x as much as BASIC is.  Time to put the money to work that investors have invested 200k on. 

Thanks for posting malona82. bASIC-MINING has deployed nearly 200BTC to purchase mining gear, and this does not include the original BTCFPGA order on which the company was founded. I share your enthusiasm and I too am tired of waiting. We have motions up for voting to reach a consensus on which path to follow at this time.

Since you mentioned specific time frames in your post, may I ask why you chose 6 months as a break even date for an ASICMiner blade purchase? There are so many variables that go into such an estimate, I'm curious how you arrived at this number.

500BTC spent on blades would realistically yield us 110-120Gh/s or 28-31Mh/s/share while the Avalons purchased for 176.73BTC will yield us between 152-156Gh/s or 39-40Mh/s/share. Time will tell if the large premium being paid for ASICMiner blades over Avalon gear is worth it or not. Either way I will abide by whatever shareholders decide with these motions.

Cheers.  

Where I arrive at about 6 moths is the stead streat of 8% difficulty increases.  So every 3 weeks we get 8% roughly, which should tail off if BTC keeps around the 130 level as interest will keep waining.  But anyway.  Lets look at it like this.  And i'll use 1 blade and we can go on from there.  I'm using a 8% per retarged and 14 days as the retarget cycle. which is probably a little light on the cycle. but whatever.  i'm here to see if we can get to breakeven after 6 months

Diff 131   .4/d x 14 = 5.6
diff 141   .36  x 14 = 5.1
diff 152   .33 x 14  = 4.6
diff 165   .30 x 14 = 4.2
diff 178   .28 x 14 = 3.9
diff 192   .26 x 14 = 3.65
diff 207   .24 x 14 = 3.36
diff 224  .225 x 14 = 3.15
diff 242   .21 x 14 =  2.94
diff 261  .192 x 14 = 2.69
diff 282  .18 x 14  = 2.52
diff 304  .165 x 14 = 2.31

total of 44 BTC over 168 days which is 5.5 months.  and that's no counting any nmc that we sell so over the 6 months we should be very close to or over break even selling nmc.  there could be some big retargets that would push out break even but there also could be difficulties that are less then 8% too.  GPU's will be pushing off the network as difficulty rises which will help the network absorb asics.  Either way, I agree avalons would be the better choice.  But given the time frame if there is no Asics out there to be bought in a timely manner then we will lose the benefit of the next month or 2 where we can really profit while the difficulties are low LOL.  And if we buy now and difficulties don't rise like I projected then we benefit even more. 

This is why I think we should buy the blades.  Everything after the 6 months is all profit.  Sure there are costs associated with it.  but they don't compare with the profits potential of the blades. Even if you knock 10% of the revenue off for costs of electricty and stuff you still end up making money around or just after the 6 month mark.  That's alot better then paying 1/2 the price for asics in 6 months for 1/2 the revenue which is what will happen.  Cuz we'll be able to do that too.