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Author Topic: ToominCoin aka "Bitcoin_Classic" #R3KT  (Read 157066 times)
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January 18, 2016, 05:24:45 PM
 #81

There is still this one-size-fit-all problem, e.g. it costs the same to do large transactions as well as micro transactions, since the fee is not percentage based but per transaction based

This is similar to: The airline ticket price is the same for everyone, because it must suit the poorest people who want to travel, so it must drop the ticket price to the same as bus or subway

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Every time a block is mined, a certain amount of BTC (called the subsidy) is created out of thin air and given to the miner. The subsidy halves every four years and will reach 0 in about 130 years.
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January 18, 2016, 05:25:05 PM
 #82

also about the 23%, you misunderstood the thing as usual, i did not mean that there will be a greater %, but that the same percentage, would be noticed more, because there will be more users, that will use bitcoin with a greater adoption

so you will have more people complaining about the slowest transaction, and delay,not good, so yes 23% will be a in issue
You're wrong again. In that case the percentage would rise, else there would not be an increased delay. If the percentage doesn't increase that means that the number of transactions has stagnated or became smaller.

snip random cocky whine

wait we are not understanding each other i think, if right now the % of block filled completely is 23%, with a greater adoption, which means a greater number of transactions per block, it will remain the same, 23% of the block will be filled, so it is correct

but since there are more users using bitcoin, it mean that in those 23% of the block filled completely(blocks will be bigger here) there will be more transactions stuck, so more whine from "average joe"

this is not the % of transactions inside the filled block, but % of the filled block itself... i hope it's clear know
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January 18, 2016, 06:44:21 PM
Last edit: January 18, 2016, 06:57:42 PM by johnyj
 #83

Because this is a consensus based community, anything that is more complex than 1+1=2 will not be able to reach consensus simply because not every participants have time to understand complex schemes. 2MB is most possible to reach major consensus right now
This does not justify the situation. I'm pretty sure that 99% of the users do not correctly know how the underlying math and hashing works yet they believe in the security and privacy (pseudo anonymity) of Bitcoin. This is why people without a IT background should not be deciding on these matters and making illogical moves. Choosing 2 MB blocks over SegWit is very redundant.

Yes, suppose that I'm an average people without enough IT expertise, the only thing I can understand is that 2MB is 100% larger than 1MB, just like my 2 GB hard drive is 100% larger than my 1GB hard drive. From my point of view, if 1MB blocks already worked for 7 years fine without being full, there is almost no reason why 2MB will not work since that is a very small change, given everything else unchanged, it is very easy for me to evaluate the risk involved

However, if someone presented me a complex solution that has never been on live traffic and say this will scale bitcoin similar to 2MB increase, then there are just too much change and too much variables that I have no way to evaluate their risk

Then as you described, I can look for advice from experts and seek the guidance from "Authorities". But you know that most of the bitcoin user come to bitcoin is just because they don't trust any centralized authorities since power always corrupts. Should they trust a group of devs instead of FED? And what if these devs can not reach agreements? The reason people support 2MB is simply not because they trust Gavin or Jeff, they trust nobody, they only trust their own judgement, especially when they had millions of dollars invested

This phenomenon of simple math over complex scheme has always been witnessed at various IT products: People usually prefer a camera with larger pixel count, so the company focus on improving the image quality instead of pixel count all have failed due to lower sale of their products. Foveon sensor for example is the only sensor that can record all the color information at each pixel, but unfortunately most of the consumer only know how to count numbers

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January 18, 2016, 10:16:26 PM
 #84

Developer Jonas Schnelli weighs in at an article at BitcoinBlog.de. I have provided a translation for those who do not read German.

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January 18, 2016, 11:10:03 PM
 #85


1. 8mb was too high straight off the cuff.. it needs to be be gradual

That's funny.  Cause Peter Wieulle suggested 100 MB before he joined Blockstream.

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January 18, 2016, 11:22:22 PM
 #86


1. 8mb was too high straight off the cuff.. it needs to be be gradual

That's funny.  Cause Peter Wieulle suggested 100 MB before he joined Blockstream.

i thought from a technical prospective, 32mb was a round hard limit due to other factors around packet size and other stuff.. so i would definitely laugh at 100mb.

but one day.. i see one day it reaching 8mb, then one day 32.. then one day maybe once technology changes 100mb.. but certainly none of these straight off the cuff.

i personally prefer it to be an individual user choice. that way they dont have to choose which band camp to join to get a download.. they just tweak their own advanced settings box, when progress and consensus is made


i also remember a bips suggestion to re introduce another pot of 21million bitcoins every 200 years wrote by wuille.. yea.. funny
https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0042.mediawiki

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January 18, 2016, 11:53:29 PM
 #87

I've seen Roger Ver recently in an interview in the Dollar Vigilante saying that he wants to increase the blocksize because if you raise it more people can use Bitcoin. How does this make sense? Everyone can use Bitcoin now, if you can't afford the current fees you have bigger problems to solve.
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January 19, 2016, 12:24:48 AM
 #88


My god I just saw for the first time that retarded voting idea they made for the inclusion or exclusion of features for the Bitcoin protocol.

Classic will have the honor of being the first coin designed by Sybil attack!   Cheesy


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January 19, 2016, 12:50:17 AM
 #89


My god I just saw for the first time that retarded voting idea they made for the inclusion or exclusion of features for the Bitcoin protocol.

Classic will have the honor of being the first coin designed by Sybil attack!   Cheesy

Now that's classick!
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January 19, 2016, 02:08:37 AM
 #90

Holy Bikesheds, Batman!

Classik's internal schism(s) just got a whole lot worse.

@Bitfury has dropped a giant logic bomb on the mega-block Frap.doc coffee-chainers of the Toominista movement.  It's back to Unlimiterd for those losers!

https://medium.com/@BitFuryGroup/keep-calm-and-bitcoin-on-4f29d581276#.89z3s67sc

KEEP CALM AND BITCOIN ON

By Valery Vavilov, Co-Founder BitFury

I grew up in Soviet Latvia and witnessed firsthand the elimination of my parent’s life savings. All of their dreams were gone when the Soviet Union and the banking systems collapsed in 1991. Then, like a nightmare, my own investment dreams were shattered in the global financial crisis of 2008. I knew as a child, and I know even more now as an adult that we, as a global technology community, can and must do better.

I wrote my first computer code when I was 8 years young. Mathematics is the language I speak and trust. Enter the emerging idea of Bitcoin. I discovered this exciting open source technology in 2010. Together with my business partner, Valery Nebesny, we realized this new way of processing and transferring assets could actually make our world a better and fairer place for people everywhere — in developed and developing countries — all through the use of math, cryptography and thoughtful programming language based on the fundamental value of trust. Fast forward 5+ years, and the world of Bitcoin has advanced beyond our wildest expectations and continues to be a dynamic innovative ecosystem that is evolving every day.

Needless to say, it was disappointing to see Mike Hearn, a prominent contributor to the Bitcoin developer community, recently offer a lengthy blog post stating that the industry was dead and that bitcoin was a failed experiment. Perhaps the road for Hearn has come to an end, but for me and my many colleagues and fellow Bitcoin Blockchain experts, it is safe to say that we are just beginning down this incredible road and we see a promising future. https://medium.com/@octskyward/the-resolution-of-the-bitcoin-experiment-dabb30201f7#.35zknj7jk

While Mike is entitled to his own opinion, of course, I thought I would take a moment to address a few of his points with my views. I will caveat that much of what is happening in the Bitcoin space is highly technical and fairly difficult for those who have not immersed themselves in the math and science of late to fully understand.

With that, let me lay out a few facts:

FACT 1: Bitcoin Is Not an Electronic Payments System Like PayPal

Many Bitcoin newcomers view the network as yet another electronic system for instant payments, like PayPal or Visa. Right here we have a very substantial difference in opinion. Bitcoin was never designed to confirm instant payments and believing that is its function is a mistake.

As Nick Szabo, the renowned author of smart contracts wrote: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nick-szabo-if-banks-want-benefits-blockchains-they-must-go-permissionless-1518874v

“Visa and PayPal already exist, and within national borders they do what they do quite well. It’s silly to try to turn Bitcoin into yet another Visa and PayPal.”

I believe, based on the way the system was designed and developed by Satoshi, that it would be disingenuous to expect instant transaction confirmation from the Bitcoin network — it is simply not wired that way. No increase of the block size limit could help make instant Bitcoin transaction confirmation a reality.

Does this mean that Bitcoin cannot be used for instant payments? Not at all. You simply need an additional system operating on top of the Bitcoin Blockchain (with the Blockchain acting as a settlement layer). These systems already exist in custodial wallet services and Bitcoin exchanges. But the larger point is that the potential of Bitcoin is so much greater and transformative than simply hoping it can compete with PayPal.

FACT 2: Bitcoin Is Not and Should Not Be Free to Use

While the Bitcoin network dramatically lowers the cost of transactions, the reality is that the Bitcoin Blockchain is not free to use. The Blockchain is secured with an enormous amount of computing power, and transaction fees are an important incentive to keep contributing that power.

As the Bitcoin network continues to evolve, transaction fees need to grow in order to maintain a high level of security within and for the network. As BitFury has outlined in our white paper on Bitcoin security incentives http://bitfury.com/content/4-white-papers-research/bitfury-incentive_mechanisms_for_securing_the_bitcoin_blockchain-1.pdf, the transaction fee market is currently actively developing. The percentage of transactions satisfying a market-based fee margin has grown from 22% in March 2015 to nearly 40% in October 2015.

Just like with instant payments, expensive on-chain Bitcoin transactions do not mean that one cannot use Bitcoin for cheap value transfer. Overlay networks, such as Lightning and sidechains, can successfully deal with this challenge while in-service ledgers already do.

FACT 3: Bitcoin Transaction Processing Is Not Presently Clogged

There is no observable evidence that Bitcoin transaction processing is presently clogged. Key statistics gathered by Statoshi http://statoshi.info/ for the past few months show the pool of unconfirmed transactions has held relatively steady at about 10,000 transactions — a significant decrease from over 75,000 unconfirmed transactions during “the stress test” performed in September 2015. Most of these transactions, according to CoinTape http://www.cointape.com/ pay zero or near-zero transaction fees.

For Bitcoin wallets with proper fee estimation logic, the clogging challenge simply does not exist. According to web-based fee estimation services, such as CoinTape, as of January, 2016, the optimal transaction fee for an average transaction is less than 0.1 USD — quite small for most use cases. The issue we do face is with “free riders” — applications with a business model relying on non-existent Bitcoin transaction fees.

FACT 4: Miners Embrace Bitcoin’s Popularity

Bitcoin miners and transaction processors such as BitFury, are likely the biggest supporters of the Bitcoin ecosystem and any suggestion otherwise is simply ridiculous. Bitcoin miners invest enormous amounts of money and efforts into developing and maintaining bitcoin mining hardware. As the Scaling Bitcoin conferences have shown, miners are generally in support of cautious increases of the block size limit — just not abrupt increases — because such sudden change could undermine the foundation of the Bitcoin network. BitFury has detailed these points in our white paper http://bitfury.com/content/4-white-papers-research/block-size-1.1.1.pdf

FACT 5: Bitcoin Mining Is Decentralized

Most existing mining pools are public. This means that they consist of tens of thousands of independent users who are free to join or leave the pool at any time. Private mining pools are frequently operated by firms that publicly sell mining equipment, including BitFury (https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bitfury-to-mass-produce-new-nm-chip-and-sell-to-public-1452010171).

Even if there were merely ten entities controlling Bitcoin mining (which there are not), this would still not be a threat. There are many Bitcoin nodes not controlled by miners, which would act as a barrier against rogue miners’ misbehavior. However, a rapidly rising block size could put most of these nodes out of work because they would simply have to switch off due to a lack appropriate hardware to perform transaction processing), paving the road to the real centralization (see [The Decentralist Perspective] https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/decentralist-perspective-bitcoin-might-need-small-blocks-1442090446).

FACT 6: Mass Rule is Not Appropriate for Bitcoin

The pipe dream of some in the Bitcoin community is to govern the system by having ordinary users vote for changes by adopting the corresponding full node software. This approach is not only impractical, it is also not desirable. Most ordinary Bitcoin users do not own a full node and ironically, if they did, it is quite possible they could not afford its maintenance after a hypothetical abrupt block size increase. Users of Bitcoin should most certainly have a say in the direction of this technology, but in order to appropriately and continuously secure the Blockchain, it is responsible for all of us who are knowledgeable about the science to take a leadership role where and when it is necessary.

FACT 7: Bitcoin XT Would Not Have Solved Bitcoin’s Challenges

Bitcoin XT was considered by some a remedy for perceived problems with the Bitcoin ecosystem. However, upon closer inspection, XT leaves at least some of these challenges, and the reality is that XT would not have made transaction confirmation immediate and would not have reduced the risk of double-spending for unconfirmed transactions.

Additionally:

· XT would not have eliminated transaction fees — it would have merely delayed the development of the fee market. (The perspective of having no fees forever is much worse; as the block reward steadily diminishes, the security of the network would eventually take a nosedive.)

· XT would have done nothing about the “mining centralization” problem. In fact, it would have made things worse by pushing small mining pools out of business.

· XT would not have helped decentralization and would have made things worse by elevating the requirements to maintain a full Bitcoin node.

· XT code updates would not have differed from Bitcoin Core in the expressive means of its users — all voting rounds would still need to be introduced into the code by developers.

Bitcoin XT and its predecessor — Bitcoin improvement proposal (BIP) 101 — were not supported by the Bitcoin community simply because they contained too many controversial features in the areas where each mistake could cost the most in terms of Bitcoin value. These proposals were hard forks, meaning that their implementation could break Bitcoin as a system for value transfer (http://wallstreettechnologist.com/2015/08/19/bitcoin-xt-vs-core-blocksize-limit-the-schism-that-divides-us-all).

CONCLUSION

I believe in Bitcoin. I believe in the Blockchain. I know that the vast potential is just being realized. We wish Mr. Hearn all the best as he commences his work with our friends at R3CEV. It is important that we respect various input but simultaneously resist the temptation to give Mr. Hearn’s voice too much weight.

Bitcoin is not an instant payment network and not a fancy replacement for PayPal or Visa. It is first and foremost a decentralized system, which sacrifices speed in favor of security. A key feature provided by decentralization is permissionless entry for users and developers — and it is thanks to this component that Bitcoin has grown into much more than a currency and has become a platform for Blockchain innovations.

Most importantly, Bitcoin is a new world created for anyone — especially for someone like me — who didn’t grow up in a world where “trusted emissary” was a reality and the idea of “asset security” was something other people in other parts of the world enjoyed.

I believe in Bitcoin because I believe in democracy and I believe in open societies. And as Winston Churchill once said: “Democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all the others.” Open source projects are not perfect, but they unite the best and most innovative thinkers, and I am honored to be a part of this mission.


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whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
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January 19, 2016, 07:04:30 AM
Last edit: January 19, 2016, 07:34:49 AM by Lauda
 #91

Yes, suppose that I'm an average people without enough IT expertise, the only thing I can understand is that 2MB is 100% larger than 1MB, just like my 2 GB hard drive is 100% larger than my 1GB hard drive. From my point of view, if 1MB blocks already worked for 7 years fine without being full, there is almost no reason why 2MB will not work since that is a very small change, given everything else unchanged, it is very easy for me to evaluate the risk involved

However, if someone presented me a complex solution that has never been on live traffic and say this will scale bitcoin similar to 2MB increase, then there are just too much change and too much variables that I have no way to evaluate their risk
-snip.
This is why I'm against political movements like XT, Classic, at the moment. They are trying to rally up support by using the simplicity in their proposals (which were obviously inadequate and worse compared to SegWit). It is easy to manipulate the mass if you know how to. You did make a good point and thanks for the example with camera pixels.

Cause Peter Wieulle suggested 100 MB before he joined Blockstream.
Stop jumping to conclusion and attacking idividuals. His change of view is not related to Blockstream. Obviously the general understanding 2-3 years back was much lower than what we know today. 100 MiB (MB != MiB) blocks would have damaged Bitcoin and would need to be swiftly reverted.


The incredibly professional Michael Toomin gets high on IRC and reminisces about taking acid and diving in Hawaii. Adam Back and Luke Jr watch in disbelief as it dawns on them this man is the future of bitcoin classic. Lovely developer that you have there.  Cheesy

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January 19, 2016, 08:05:58 PM
 #92



 Cheesy

☐ not rekt
☐ rekt
☑ Tyrannosaurus rekt


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"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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January 19, 2016, 10:32:36 PM
 #93

Holy Bikesheds, Batman!

....

You are funny, that article links directly to the bit fury paper.

3 Conclusion
In order for the Bitcoin ecosystem to continue developing, the maximum block size needs to be in-creased.

"A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution" - Satoshi Nakamoto
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January 19, 2016, 11:15:06 PM
Last edit: January 19, 2016, 11:36:31 PM by iCEBREAKER
 #94

Holy Bikesheds, Batman!

You are funny, that article links directly to the bit fury paper.

3 Conclusion
In order for the Bitcoin ecosystem to continue developing, the maximum block size needs to be in-creased.

SEGWIT effectively increases the blocksize by about the same amount as the Toominista 'not much testing needed' 2MB proposal, with the added benefits of being thoroughly tested, fixing malleability, and enabling pruning, plus (most importantly) avoiding a contentious hard fork that carries the risk of catastrophic consensus failure and/or proof-of-work change.

In a cost/benefit analysis, 2MB Classic loses to 1MB+SW Core.  Shockingly, even Reddit is starting understand that!   Cheesy

Bitfury knows a fork war is a very bad idea.  His Legitimate Russian Slavic Businessmen investors will not be happy if their giant, expensive new mines suddenly become obsolete, all because Toominista brinksmanship forced Core to exercise their nuclear option.

Max block size will be increased in due time, once we pay off technical debt and have in place better signature verification technology which is not subject to quadratic processing times.

As Satoshi foretold, blocks will be allowed to grow "eventually" but Sorry, Not Tonight Dear!

You ignored the point of my post, which is that the "free tx 4EVA" Paypal-wannabe payment network Tooministas are in serious, irreconcilable disagreement the the Bitfury "slow and secure, not a fancy Visa" store-of-value faction.


Valery saw his parents' (and community's) life savings destroyed, and then later his own.  His hatred of fiat exceeds even my own, which is actually impossible.  But the 'Bitcoin replaces commercial, not central, banking' side is digging in their heels.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/41lzjm/keep_calm_and_bitcoin_on/cz3lh2j

Quote
I respectfully completely disagree with what Valery wrote. It's really sad to see this kind of propaganda going on - but whoever reads this needs to understand that what he wrote is wrong.

First, understand this: To get new users over the past three to four years, Bitcoin has sold the idea that it would allow users to send money anywhere, quickly and free. Period. That was the revolutionary idea. Bitcoin is valuable because of its transaction utility. None of this "oh we have to take your money now" approach.

This promise was floated freely in /r/bitcoin several years ago. However, Valery's vision is new, different and miner-centric. It breaks this original promise. In effect he's saying, "Welp, it no longer does that, so let's take that part off the website. It's still good enough."

Valery is essentially saying that the block reward isn't enough to keep miners mining, when the system is designed to become easier to mine when there are less miners around.

The idea that miners have to make additional money off of transaction fees in order to have enough incentive to continue mining... It's basically not trusting the system to work as designed. In that case why do we even have a block reward? In this scenario, miners are no different than any credit card payment processor, taking money off of the top.

This idea that a fee is necessary is totally wrong, and here's why:

If you take away the basic fundamental user incentive to use the system, you undermine the value of that system.

If Bitcoin is free to use, more people will use it. If more people use it the value goes up. That increased value then provides the only necessary incentive to mine Bitcoin. If the price goes down, less miners will be mining and discovering new blocks becomes easier. This is how the system should work.

Bitcoin isn't for miners or Nasdaq settlements. Bitcoin's primary function is for the basic user. Everyone can be their own bank. Anyone can send money to anyone, for free.

All transactions on the network should work in a timely manner and 10,000 unconfirmed transactions is unacceptable. The block size needs an increase, or the cap removed to allow new users to join, regardless of what China's internet speed is capped out at.

I swear, these fucking Redditurd Tooministas.  One second it's "respectfully disagree" the next it's "zomg this propaganda."  At least that comment is being downvoted, even by the suspect, low-information /r/btc mob of Basic Betas.

I'm expecting more fireworks and making more popcorn.  The food fight in Classic's bikeshed is only going to get nastier.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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Sir Lagsalot
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The lion roars!


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January 19, 2016, 11:22:29 PM
 #95

The lulz will be of gigantic proportions!

Like I wrote elsewhere, about the possible change to Bitcoin's PoW:

Looks viable, even brilliant.

Most users are in Bitcoin for the decentralisation. This would cut at the heart of mining centralisation with a chainsaw, ensuring all savvy users stick with Core. Plus, anyone who missed the early days of Bitcoin mining might get a second shot...

But all this happens only if miners foolishly support further centralisation and demobcrazy in the form of Asslic.

If miners stick with Core, they get to keep their valuable monopoly. But if they push for Asslic, they permanently hitch their wagon to that dubious project. If Asslic fails, they fail, no takesy backsies.

Asslic's future plans, ie. selectively copying the Core devs' homework for as long as they can get away with it, would likely fall apart with this change too.

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January 20, 2016, 12:29:14 AM
 #96

Rage level over 9000. threats of nuclear options. Stick with us or else.

Keep pushing the agenda that it's everyone else trying to "destroy Bitcoin" though won't y'all.

"A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution" - Satoshi Nakamoto
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Eadem mutata resurgo


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January 20, 2016, 12:52:16 AM
 #97

Rage level over 9000. threats of nuclear options. Stick with us or else.

Keep pushing the agenda that it's everyone else trying to "destroy Bitcoin" though won't y'all.

agenda?

the jealous haterage from the bitcoin beta level actors is palpable ... satoshi won't let you goons ruin his project

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


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January 20, 2016, 04:35:38 AM
 #98

Quote
[23:26] <BlueMatt> thats probably still really tight, but I'd say at least a year
[23:27] <wangchun> BlueMatt: I agree
[23:27] <wangchun> Then we are talking something not happen until 2017

CONSENSUS IS FORMING

FORK CLASSIC

#REKT

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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January 20, 2016, 09:59:41 AM
 #99

Game over hard fork shills. Rest in piece Bitcoin?

Bitcoin 90 : 0 R3CEV
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January 20, 2016, 10:06:27 AM
 #100

Quote
[23:26] <BlueMatt> thats probably still really tight, but I'd say at least a year
[23:27] <wangchun> BlueMatt: I agree
[23:27] <wangchun> Then we are talking something not happen until 2017


Eventually.  Sorry, not tonight dear.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
Is Dash a scam?
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