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Author Topic: The Ethereum Paradox  (Read 84474 times)
r0ach
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February 15, 2016, 01:26:34 AM
 #101

They just built a teaching tool to help evolve the crypto app space

If Ethereum was a "teaching tool" it would not have had a many millions of dollars IPO cash grab.  By having an IPO, you're insinuating that you have a commercially viable product, thus Anonymint's complaints about things like the Howey test come into play.  If they knew it would not work at all from day one, or that they had no idea how it would work and attempted to do everything on the fly, it would be irresponsible at best and a scam at worst.


I mean, for this to be true, that Ethereum is built in such a way that it will not work, at all. Then this is some elaborate scam from prominent and thus far honorable community members, or some incredible naiv "hive mentality" of pure wishful thinking from seemingly very intelligent people.

I wish someone could chime in and just bury this, just so regular Joes like myself could rest assured that Ethereum is not fundamentally flawed and doomed as you are claiming..

I feel you have little credibility (Anonymint) though as you seem to present arguments that are not factual as facts

There are obviously some conflicts of interest in this space, but if you do even a tiny bit of research, you'll discover this is not me or Anonymint suddenly trying to rain on the Eth parade out of nowhere for no reason, and there existed an almost unanimous bearish sentiment on Eth from people like Gavin, Adam Back, Gmaxwell, etc, from the start.  What I'm saying is, outside of the Eth team itself, there are not many, if any, big names in crypto who seemed to think it would be good or even viable at all.  Going further down the crypto ladder, even the lowly Monero dev Smooth believes the market for these contracts is vastly overstated because of lack of demand to expand Bitcoin scripting (op_return does not count).


I was hoping smooth would comment but he may feel he hasn't yet spent enough time analyzing Ethereum.

Fluffy and Smooth have already commented on Eth a lot.  Fluffy thinks it's the worst thing ever and Smooth is pretty bearish.

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StinkyLover
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February 15, 2016, 01:56:56 AM
 #102

Maybe all this is true but it just reminds me of the 1MB blockchain disagreement around BTC. All sorts of technical arguments going back and forth.

What's the ultimate aim of this discussion thread? Are people meant to pull out of ETH? Abandon it? Or fix forward (if it can be fixed)? Or is it just to educate the masses? All cryptos have their critics and supporters. I bet some people just see this as ultimate FUD.

What's the bugbear?

You're bringing out your contribution to the industry soon. I'm interested to see what it is. If it does everything you say it'll do then then I'll be more than happy to support you and it, and to see it flourish.

I'll tell you one thing. I'm in software, and I'm yet to see any product released (from any manufacturer or any visionary) that does what was promised on it's first release. Just be careful. You might be building a rod for your own back with this thread. If your contribution isn't super-duper on the button perfect on release you might get slaughtered before you've even had a chance to do anything.
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February 15, 2016, 02:29:49 AM
 #103

Maybe all this is true but it just reminds me of the 1MB blockchain disagreement around BTC. All sorts of technical arguments going back and forth.

They are all wrong about the block size issue. The only solution is CENTRALIZATION OF VERIFICATION. I already explained why.

The reason no one wants to admit that is because they think it means admitting that decentralized crypto is dead. They think the money will stop flowing and crypto will die. So they fight on making delusion.

Note until a coin scales, the centralization issue is avoided. So when you hear smooth et al equivocate, just remember Monero hasn't scaled yet. And remember I warned in 2013 that Bitcoin would have scalecolypse. Everyone equivocated then and I ended up correct.

What's the ultimate aim of this discussion thread? Are people meant to pull out of ETH? Abandon it?

Hell yes! Stopping funding the delusion! I am not sure of r0ach's aim for the thread though. Perhaps he just wanted to open the discussion.

Or fix forward (if it can be fixed)?

I am working on it. And I am not asking for your $18 million + more.

Any highly dedicated capable developer has sufficient resources to go work on it too (at least to produce a rudimentary proof-of-concept which even Ethereum hasn't produced yet). We don't need Ethereum wasting our money on delusion and fat cats.

You're bringing out your contribution to the industry soon. I'm interested to see what it is. If it does everything you say it'll do then then I'll be more than happy to support you and it, and to see it flourish.

I'll tell you one thing. I'm in software, and I'm yet to see any product released (from any manufacturer or any visionary) that does what was promised on it's first release. Just be careful. You might be building a rod for your own back with this thread. If your contribution isn't super-duper on the button perfect on release you might get slaughtered before you've even had a chance to do anything.

I already stated it will be imperfect. The verification will be centralized. But the PoW will be decentralized and unprofitable. But we will see if I messed up any of the Nash equilibrium analysis. I will surely see this when writing the detailed white paper (for the moment it is all in my writings on the forum and in my head).

At the moment, I am focused on being healthy and coding the adoption features. The coin technology is useless without mass adoption, especially in my design because the PoW comes from payers we need a lot of users of the currency not just a speculation circle-jerk. Such things as mass adoption aren't even on Ethereum's radar.

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February 15, 2016, 02:52:25 AM
 #104

For those that aren't kids: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1364594.0

(AT has been running "live" for over one year on two separate blockchains without any serious issue and supports parallelisation of smart contracts)

But I don't see anything about verification and Nash equilibrium. I do not see a complete specification of how the mining and verification works and the game theory thereof.

bitfish
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February 15, 2016, 03:09:48 AM
 #105


Btw, note how the ETH price rises when I am sleeping and someone makes comment doubting whether I am correct. Then I post again reinforcing my points, and the ETH price falls again. The speculators are really confused. And this is going to be an evidence that Ethereum is an illegal unregistered investment security. I don't know if the regulators will do anything about it though. Depends if speculators file a legal case perhaps.


I really feel sorry for you.  Now you are even moving ETH price with your comments? Oh boy...
CIYAM
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February 15, 2016, 03:20:13 AM
 #106

For those that aren't kids: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1364594.0

(AT has been running "live" for over one year on two separate blockchains without any serious issue and supports parallelisation of smart contracts)

But I don't see anything about verification and Nash equilibrium. I do not see a complete specification of how the mining and verification works and the game theory thereof.

That's funny - first you criticise Vitalik for being too abstract and "in the clouds" and now you criticise AT for being too practical and grounded.

If you would like to do some mathematical analysis you are most welcome to but you should realise that I didn't have anything to do with either of the two blockchains that AT runs on (and AT isn't a blockchain so your question about mining makes very little sense actually as the two blockchains in question work entirely differently).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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February 15, 2016, 03:20:19 AM
 #107


Btw, note how the ETH price rises when I am sleeping and someone makes comment doubting whether I am correct. Then I post again reinforcing my points, and the ETH price falls again. The speculators are really confused. And this is going to be an evidence that Ethereum is an illegal unregistered investment security. I don't know if the regulators will do anything about it though. Depends if speculators file a legal case perhaps.


I really feel sorry for you.  Now you are even moving ETH price with your comments? Oh boy...

Paid Ethereum shills operating from newbie sock puppet accounts want readers to be ignorant of the facts. Look at the timing of my key posts in the linked thread and compare it to turning points the detailed price history over the past days.

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February 15, 2016, 03:24:12 AM
 #108

For those that aren't kids: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1364594.0

(AT has been running "live" for over one year on two separate blockchains without any serious issue and supports parallelisation of smart contracts)

But I don't see anything about verification and Nash equilibrium. I do not see a complete specification of how the mining and verification works and the game theory thereof.

That's funny - first you criticise Vitalik for being too abstract and "in the clouds" and now you criticise AT for being too practical and grounded.

I never wrote that which is underlined. I said the link you provided is missing specification of the mining and game theory for the block chain. Please don't put words in my mouth that I did not write.

If you would like to do some mathematical analysis you are most welcome to but you should realise that I didn't have anything to do with either of the two blockchains that AT runs on (it isn't a blockchain even so your question about mining makes very little sense actually).

You can't proclaim a scripting VM for block chains works, if you don't specify the mining and game theory for the block chain.

The entire point I am making is the VM isn't independent of the mining and game theory for the block chain.

If Burst and Qora are doing centralized verification, then they will run smoothly (except for any issues due to being centralized). Or if those chains are claiming they are decentralized without partitions but haven't scaled yet, then they will run smoothly (until they scale up). If they are using partitions, they will break.

CIYAM
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February 15, 2016, 03:26:31 AM
 #109

You can't proclaim a scripting VM for block chains works, if you don't specify the mining and game theory for the block chain.

The entire point I am making is the VM isn't independent of the mining and game theory for the block chain.

It is running on two entirely different kinds of block chains - if you are really interested to study them go ahead but AT is orthogonal to that (it is block chain agnostic).

Apparently it is working as it has been running for over a year on these two block chains (without any serious problem) but if you say it doesn't work then I guess we should just ignore reality and listen to you. Wink

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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TPTB_need_war
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February 15, 2016, 03:28:07 AM
 #110

You can't proclaim a scripting VM for block chains works, if you don't specify the mining and game theory for the block chain.

The entire point I am making is the VM isn't independent of the mining and game theory for the block chain.

It is running on two entirely different kinds of block chains - if you are really interested to study them go ahead but AT is orthogonal to that (it is block chain agnostic).

I didn't write 'orthogonal'. I wrote 'independent'. I hope you understand the distinction?

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February 15, 2016, 03:29:43 AM
 #111

I didn't write 'orthogonal'. I wrote 'independent'. I hope you understand the distinction?

Getting into childish word games is surely below your incredibly high IQ isn't it?

(think I'm ready to leave this topic now)

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

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TPTB_need_war
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February 15, 2016, 03:33:50 AM
 #112

I didn't write 'orthogonal'. I wrote 'independent'. I hope you understand the distinction?

Getting into childish word games is surely below your incredibly high IQ isn't it?

(think I'm ready to leave this topic now)

Childish only for someone who doesn't understand the importance of definitions and math. Childish is attacking someone for writing:

But I don't see anything about verification and Nash equilibrium. I do not see a complete specification of how the mining and verification works and the game theory thereof.

Why so emotional? Is what I wrote above really deserving of the way you reacted?

Orthogonal means your VM can be used with any block chain design and the design your VM is not impacted by any block chain considerations. Independent means that the performance of your VM is not dependent on which block chain design is chosen.

The point is your VM will not perform correctly[1] if the wrong block chain design is chosen. Therefor you can't claim you've solved the same issues that we are analyzing about Ethereum. Ethereum's problem is not the VM but rather the verification issue and game theory of mining.

Sorry you seem to not realize what this thread has been about.

Edit: also there needs to be some overview and explanation of your VM, it's purpose, etc.. The way you organize your documentation, there is nothing for the reader to get any coherence of what is being documented and why. For example, the AT spec doesn't even define 'host'. You just jump right in without giving the reader any idea what the technobabble is about. No diagrams, no explanation of terms, no overview, etc..

I wasn't criticizing you.

[1]from the perspective of the holistic system. Obviously the VM functions orthogonally to the holistic outcome of the system.

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February 15, 2016, 04:00:16 AM
 #113

(AT has been running "live" for over one year on two separate blockchains without any serious issue and supports parallelisation of smart contracts)

Here you imply that you've designed something that solves the issues we are discussing in this thread.

You didn't acknowledge the design of those block chains and the relationship of those designs to the topic of discussion I have been making in this thread.

Also you assert parallelization, but I have already stated that parallelization will only work if there are not partitions and if the VM does not accept any state changes from the current block. So what are you really claiming?

Edit: I don't understand this CIYAM. First we approached each other in PM about working together (after I commented in a public thread asking why we hadn't considered working together). Then he seems to get jealous that I am getting attention in this thread. So I Pm'ed him to ask why he is getting so offended, then he replies he never wants to talk to me again. Is this behavior of a stable person  Huh I am just wondering what I did that set him off kilter? Does he feel I am discrediting all programmable block chains (or would cause less money to flow to him)? But that is not what I wrote:

I've maintained for weeks now in my comments that the verification/validation will always become centralized for crypto currency (including smart contracts) and the cost of verification is more acute for long-running scripts.

I've also written that I think the problem can be solved by controlling centralized verification with decentralized UNprofitable proof-of-work.

Thus I believe smart contracts are still plausible on public decentralized block chains. Ethereum is pursing the wrong design though.

So I can only conclude that either CIYAM just woke up on the wrong side of the bed today, or he is jealous of the attention I am getting. Or he feels I am not qualified.

Getting into childish word games is surely below your incredibly high IQ isn't it?

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February 15, 2016, 04:10:20 AM
 #114

Sorry to interupt, but: we need a Turing complete scripting language sidechain for smart contracts? Is that right? The Bitcoin blockchain won't cut it? Are there any working smart contracts yet in the wild?

CIYAM just claimed that Burst and Qora are running smoothly. Please read the prior several posts of this thread.

CounterParty is running on top of Bitcoin's block chain. I wrote upthread that Bitcoin's block chain can be made Turing complete by externalities.

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February 15, 2016, 04:22:29 AM
 #115

I was trying to follow along. It's pretty techy stuff. I'll back away quietly now. Lips sealed

Sorry I don't have the time to write up things in more clarifying words for readers.

And I really would like to exit this thread, unless someone has a challenge to any of my points?

Please don't think I was trying to shut you up. I just answered tersely.

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February 15, 2016, 05:54:36 AM
 #116

Just because I caught Szabo in a dull moment and have called attention to his myopia in promoting Ethereum when they haven't even solved the fundamental issues, that means I am bragging  Huh

Ethereum now has a $400 million market cap and even if the price doesn't increase, the market cap will grow 18% per year due to new coins being created. If without any price increase the market cap in 10 years will be $1.6 billion just due to new coins created.

Any one think that is a good investment  Roll Eyes Hell even if it is a good design, it will be forked. It will never reach critical mass like Bitcoin to sustain a market to a $trillion market cap.

The upside is gone. Only bag holders buying or HODLering now. Any sane person would obviously sell at these prices.

And why don't you go read about how dumb Szabo is about the smart contract issue:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1361602.msg13870882#msg13870882

There is the video of him not understanding the externalities issue and Turing completeness (see above link).

And then add this:

I’m not a fan of the term “smart contracts”. For a start, it has been used by so many people for so many different things, that we should probably just ban it completely. For example, the first known reference is from 1997, when Nick Szabo used it to describe physical objects that change their behavior based on some data. More recently, the term has been used for the exact opposite: to describe computation on a blockchain which is influenced by external events such as the weather. For now let’s put both of these meanings aside.

I want to focus here on “smart contracts” in the sense of general purpose computation that takes place on a blockchain. This meaning was popularized by Ethereum, whose white paper is subtitled “A Next-Generation Smart Contract and Decentralized Application Platform”.

And yet you claim Szabo is Satoshi. You guys are a like a dog, you will hump any tree stump.

How about getting in touch with reality.

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February 15, 2016, 06:08:24 AM
 #117


The upside is gone. Only bag holders buying or HODLering now. Any sane person would obviously sell at these prices.


What does the price of eggs ether tokens have to do with anything? Is that what this is really about?

Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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February 15, 2016, 06:11:07 AM
 #118


Btw, note how the ETH price rises when I am sleeping and someone makes comment doubting whether I am correct. Then I post again reinforcing my points, and the ETH price falls again. The speculators are really confused. And this is going to be an evidence that Ethereum is an illegal unregistered investment security. I don't know if the regulators will do anything about it though. Depends if speculators file a legal case perhaps.


I really feel sorry for you.  Now you are even moving ETH price with your comments? Oh boy...

Paid Ethereum shrills operating from newbie sock puppet accounts want readers to be ignorant of the facts. Look at the timing of my key posts in the linked thread and compare it to turning points the detailed price history over the past days.

My son, I have been registering my bitcointalk account June 06, 2011, 12:27:49 PM. At which date did you register?
Since that time I have seen legions of folks like you come an go. They mostly had one thing in common: they were strong with words and weak with action. Many of them should have better doing a walk in nature more often than sitting behind their keyboards day and night. 

And while I haven't been posting a lot, I have been doing lots of reading and learning about crypto currencies. And after doing my homework I have been buying up some chunks of BTC (at that time you had to pay about 14 USD Wink ) because I was convinced that BTC had a great future. Definitely worth more than 14 bucks...

As a "paid Ethereum shrill" with a (4 1/2 year old) "newbie sock puppet account" I don't care what know-it-all folks like your are saying. I do my DD. This includes technical details of a coin, potential market and who is standing behind a coin.  And after that I'm spending some bucks or I don't. (Mostly don't Wink )

As someone who is doing business with other "things" for a long time now, I have been always looking at the personality of my prospective business partners. And most of the time this was a very important criterion whether a business relation has been enjoyable and successful or not. And sorry to say that I probably wouldn't invest in your coin.

 
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February 15, 2016, 06:13:28 AM
 #119

Didn't read anything you wrote, I'm sorry, too brainy. Ethereum is the new Skynet and it's currently making another run to 0.02, I'm glad I didn't sell my ETH as it will help cure cancer by develop medical dapps. I'm not even joking.
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February 15, 2016, 06:14:39 AM
 #120


The upside is gone. Only bag holders buying or HODLering now. Any sane person would obviously sell at these prices.


What does the price of eggs ether tokens have to do with anything? Is that what this is really about?

Did you entirely miss upthread point about wasting $18 million of YOUR money.

And the reason for the current P&D being they ran out of funds and so they need to fool you, so they can waste some more of YOUR $millions.

Are you guys totally idiots or what  Huh

Didn't read anything you wrote

And then you think you are qualified to speak about what Ethereum can accomplish   Roll Eyes

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