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Author Topic: The Ethereum Paradox  (Read 83967 times)
stoat
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March 03, 2016, 03:21:57 PM
 #401

Do not reply to the panic-stricken technologically illiterate trolls.

I'm technologically literate enough to tell that your arguments don't amount to anything

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TPTB_need_war
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March 03, 2016, 03:22:47 PM
 #402

Do not reply to the panic-stricken technologically illiterate trolls.

ilia7777
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March 03, 2016, 03:23:16 PM
 #403

Let me ask a stupid question here. How a user can have gas in one partition and not to have gas in another ? Are you saying that a user had spent his gas but it didn't get validated by the system ?

I need to start by explaining everything about block chains. You are ostensibly lacking the very basic levels of technical understanding. But there are no stupid questions if they are sincere. Probably many readers would have a similar confusion.

Normally the way a block chain works (whether it be proof-of-work or proof-of-share) is that there is one ordering of transactions and blocks that the system forms a consensus on. The key point is that every validator validates every transaction and every block, thus each validator can be sure that there is nothing invalid is the consensus ordering. Note that any particular ordering is arbitrary as there are other orderings that are also valid, but the consensus chooses one ordering from the many arbitrary valid possible orderings. The consensus never chooses an invalid set of transactions nor an invalid ordering.

But when every validator has to validate everything, then the block chain can't scale and remain decentralized.

So Ethereum proposed to shard (partition) the validation such that scripts are assigned to a partition and can only operate on block chain state that has been validated for that partition. Any state stored on the block chain for other partitions is only validated for those other partitions. In short, partitions can't share state, because the validators can't assume that state they did not validate is valid. Because such an assumption would put the validators in a Prisoner's Dilemma game theory wherein the Nash equilibrium collapses.

So thus gas balances being a block chain state could only be spent within their own partition. So thus if you as a user have your gas balance stored in partition 536 and you want to run a script in partition in 1279, then you can not (not without entirely breaking the mathematical model of the security of Ethereum).

The only way to fix that is to not do sharding. Period.

Thus Ethereum can't scale decentralized. Period. There is no fix they can do (at least not anything they are contemplating ... although I have an idea of how to solve this problem with unprofitable mining but I am the only person with that idea).

Just for your reference I've studied computer programming and I have been a programmer for at least 10 years (real time systems) before moving to other things. But I do lack the technical knowledge on the blockchain cause I've started looking into this about a week ago. However I already read about half of the Solidarity manual.

Where exactly the sharding mechanism is described ? Why they have decided to do it ? For speed ? You keep talking about scaling again without defining what you mean by it. Its is the idea of the blockchain that every validator has to validate everything is it not ?  I don't understand why even do partition to create different states if it obviously creates a problem.  On the other hand whatever won't get validated will get reversed.
TPTB_need_war
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March 03, 2016, 03:26:27 PM
 #404

ilia7777,

Frankly I have 10,000+ posts. Do you expect me to redefine everything I already defined for each newbie that comes along and hasn't done his homework. Are you paying me to be your secretary?

You do some research and reading, so you can come up to speed.

Why don't you start with for example this white paper from Bitcoin experts that talks about scaling issues:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1378112.0

If you aren't aware of the Bitcoin scalepolcaplyse ongoing, then you definitely have not been around here long.

Edit: another couple of threads that are more verbose than the above linked white paper:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1319681.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1183043.0

YarkoL
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March 03, 2016, 04:57:50 PM
 #405


Where exactly the sharding mechanism is described ? Why they have decided to do it ? For speed ? You keep talking about scaling again without defining what you mean by it. Its is the idea of the blockchain that every validator has to validate everything is it not ?  I don't understand why even do partition to create different states if it obviously creates a problem.  On the other hand whatever won't get validated will get reversed.

This is a good summary
http://ethereum.stackexchange.com/questions/573/what-is-a-shard

dev blog https://yarkol.github.io
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Sark
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March 03, 2016, 05:11:51 PM
 #406

Do not reply to the panic-stricken technologically illiterate trolls.

Can we respond to the literate ones?
TPTB_need_war
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March 03, 2016, 05:13:01 PM
 #407

Do not reply to the panic-stricken technologically illiterate trolls.

Can we respond to the literate ones?

Did we fail to?

stoat
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March 03, 2016, 05:39:43 PM
 #408

Do not reply to the panic-stricken technologically illiterate trolls.

Can we respond to the literate ones?

Did we fail to?

You are losing the plot my friend.  Maybe you need to take a month break from these forums that will be good for your health.

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Sark
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March 03, 2016, 06:14:42 PM
 #409

Do not reply to the panic-stricken technologically illiterate trolls.

Can we respond to the literate ones?

Did we fail to?

I don't believe you responded to me yet
TPTB_need_war
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March 03, 2016, 06:21:20 PM
 #410

Do not reply to the panic-stricken technologically illiterate trolls.

Can we respond to the literate ones?

Did we fail to?

I don't believe you responded to me yet

This was addressed:

How about for proof just go run a DApp? There are plenty of smart contracts out there live and functioning on the network right now.

Capser is for scaling.

Here:

Sorry, a bit more precise: Is casper the  base for the Smart contract executor?

No...   smart contracts are already a reality without Casper.

https://etherchain.org/contracts

Smart contracts in a real world setting that must scale can not exist without Casper.

The virtual machine for smart contracts runs, but any sort of real world scaling of the virtual machine requires Casper.

I have explained why Casper can't possibly work and my point is unarguable.

And here:

Its really pointless to have a general discussion without reference to specific application. One thing is for sure: the slowlness and lack of concurrency greatly limits possible applications. What worries me is that Vitalik is computer science drop out and he may have missed some of the important stuff that people suppose to study Smiley  The whole thing about Ethereum seems to me like a strech of imagination that may lead nowhere. Blockchain is very specific thing created for very limited and specific purpose and so will be possible applications of Ethereum which I see to be mostly limited to transactional stuff. These applications will have to be quite simple, no heavy processing is going to work well in such archetecture. I really would like to see very specific ideas for Ehtereum apps and not general stuff that is theoretically possible.

Yeah that is my point that even though the virtual machine works, it doesn't scale decentralized (yeah sure we can scale anything centralized). And it won't even scale to where Bitcoin is now decentralized because scripts consume more validation resources than validating ECDSA signatures.

[...]

For example, I long ago shortcut directly to the generative essence of the problem space and thus am not wasting everyone's time and $millions pursuing braindead designs that can't possibly work. Instead I understand that validation must be centralized in any possible consensus system and thus I turned my attention to decentralized control over centralized validation. Those guys are instead still stuck back at figuring out what can't work.

stoat
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March 03, 2016, 06:23:16 PM
 #411

Seems like a load of tired old bollocks now doesn't it.  Why are you trying to FUD something that doesn't exist yet?  Why don't you FUD it after it's released and your points might have some substance.

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stoat
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March 03, 2016, 06:32:15 PM
 #412

Do not feed the panic-stricken trolls who want naive greater fools to buy fake price and volume during the interim time until Casper fails.


How am i panic stricken,  you're the one who is panic stricken.  You along with all the other ETH FUDers on this board.  There's a huge majority of threads trying to FUD ethereum, and like 4 or 5 fans of ethereum who post in them defending ethereum.

Anyone can see the only people panic stricken are the bagholders of failed coins and bitcoin maximalists of this forum.

Oh, and the panic stricken would-be shitcoin developer im replying to.

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TPTB_need_war
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March 03, 2016, 06:33:44 PM
 #413

Do not feed the panic-stricken trolls who want naive greater fools to buy fake price and volume during the interim time until Casper fails.

Sark
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March 03, 2016, 06:40:26 PM
 #414

This was addressed:

Ah, thanks for the links - I don't have time to keep track of all your posts, so it is good to get a summary on occasion.
partysaurus
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March 03, 2016, 07:08:27 PM
 #415

Do not feed the panic-stricken trolls who want naive greater fools to buy fake price and volume during the interim time until Casper fails.


How am i panic stricken,  you're the one who is panic stricken.  You along with all the other ETH FUDers on this board.  There's a huge majority of threads trying to FUD ethereum, and like 4 or 5 fans of ethereum who post in them defending ethereum.

Anyone can see the only people panic stricken are the bagholders of failed coins and bitcoin maximalists of this forum.

Oh, and the panic stricken would-be shitcoin developer im replying to.

4 or 5 guys that hype the price up you mean? no way in hell you believe all the bullshit you keep on spamming on every etherium thread. you are just here to pump the price and then you leave with the profit. if eth is so great why do you need to make it your job to spam and harass everyone that dont believe in eth and telling everyone that eth will change the world. just make your money yourself and let us none believers be.
Nothing that is as great as you say , need to be defended this hard. and why do you care if we dont think eth is all that? oh ya then we dont buy in and the price wont go up go figure.........

stoat
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March 03, 2016, 07:40:39 PM
 #416

Do not feed the panic-stricken trolls who want naive greater fools to buy fake price and volume during the interim time until Casper fails.


How am i panic stricken,  you're the one who is panic stricken.  You along with all the other ETH FUDers on this board.  There's a huge majority of threads trying to FUD ethereum, and like 4 or 5 fans of ethereum who post in them defending ethereum.

Anyone can see the only people panic stricken are the bagholders of failed coins and bitcoin maximalists of this forum.

Oh, and the panic stricken would-be shitcoin developer im replying to.

4 or 5 guys that hype the price up you mean? no way in hell you believe all the bullshit you keep on spamming on every etherium thread. you are just here to pump the price and then you leave with the profit. if eth is so great why do you need to make it your job to spam and harass everyone that dont believe in eth and telling everyone that eth will change the world. just make your money yourself and let us none believers be.
Nothing that is as great as you say , need to be defended this hard. and why do you care if we dont think eth is all that? oh ya then we dont buy in and the price wont go up go figure.........

I only made an account on this stupid website because i was shocked to see only Anti ETH FUD threads from the likes of benthach and others.

If you didn't have benthach you wouldn't have me. Im just the other side of the coin.  Action - reaction.

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calkob
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March 03, 2016, 08:10:23 PM
 #417

you're basically required to ask yourself, is Vitalik an order of magnitude smarter than Satoshi?


My answer to that is..........YES "The boys a genius"  Grin Grin Grin Grin
mining1
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March 03, 2016, 08:28:48 PM
 #418

Do not feed the panic-stricken trolls who want naive greater fools to buy fake price and volume during the interim time until Casper fails.
the only greater fool here is you. You are a grown ass man yet act like an toddler.

I've seen your picture and you look dopey as fuck.  And you dress like a manchild.  No wonder you ran off to the philipines. I bet lifes easier when people kowtow to you just for being white.  Probably a sex tourist.
Lets get down to business,i got my popcorn.
@TPTB_need_war whats your response to that ?
stoat
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March 03, 2016, 08:52:58 PM
 #419

Do not feed the panic-stricken trolls who want naive greater fools to buy fake price and volume during the interim time until Casper fails.
the only greater fool here is you. You are a grown ass man yet act like an toddler.

I've seen your picture and you look dopey as fuck.  And you dress like a manchild.  No wonder you ran off to the philipines. I bet lifes easier when people kowtow to you just for being white.  Probably a sex tourist.
Lets get down to business,i got my popcorn.
@TPTB_need_war whats your response to that ?

It's 4am in the philipines and the poor guy is shattered from all the forum posting he's been doing against ETH.

He'll wake up in the morning and see it

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illodin
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March 03, 2016, 11:01:52 PM
 #420

I only made an account on this stupid website because i was shocked to see only Anti ETH FUD threads from the likes of benthach and others.

Just because you somehow managed to register an account in a discussion forum (perhaps your momma helped you with that?) doesn't mean you are qualified to keep posting in technical discussion threads.

Not one of your posts so far has contained anything useful or interesting to anyone, just zero content noise.

I would otherwise ask your momma to help you to register an account at http://www.kidzworld.com/forums/ or http://www.playkidsgames.com/ instead but she's busy having her mouth full under my desk at the moment.
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