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Author Topic: Community Miner Design Discussion  (Read 33988 times)
aliashraf
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June 22, 2016, 04:48:27 PM
 #421

I have to apologize sidehack dude,
It is getting too late in my timezone, will be with you some 12 hours later, my apologies again Smiley
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June 22, 2016, 04:49:31 PM
 #422

Well that works. 12 hours from now I'll be asleep and you can talk as much as you want.

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June 22, 2016, 05:04:45 PM
 #423

You are simply wrong Smiley
Hey, I have this great idea.  Stop mailing letters to people.  Instead, write all mail on cash bills and then spend those cash bills, sort of, at a place run by whoever you are sending a letter to.  Great idea, right?

Wrong.
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June 22, 2016, 05:09:25 PM
 #424

That's kinda how I see it. A blockchain as a means of reliably transferring and storing data in general isn't a bad idea. I just have never liked the idea of using one that already exists specifically set up to transfer currency data for other things.

Cycling the same rhetoric with the same jargon (left undefined or mostly unexplained) doesn't really do much good to convince me otherwise, and improper sentence structures difficult to parse accurately make it even worse. I hope he comes back with a well-thought-out, well-reasoned and informative response.

Cool, quiet and up to 1TH pod miner, on sale now!
Currently in development - 200+GH USB stick; 6TH volt-adjustable S1/3/5 upgrade kit
Server PSU interface boards and cables. USB and small-scale miners. Hardware hosting, advice and odd-jobs. Supporting the home miner community since 2013 - http://www.gekkoscience.com
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June 22, 2016, 05:50:39 PM
 #425

That's kinda how I see it. A blockchain as a means of reliably transferring and storing data in general isn't a bad idea. I just have never liked the idea of using one that already exists specifically set up to transfer currency data for other things.

Cycling the same rhetoric with the same jargon (left undefined or mostly unexplained) doesn't really do much good to convince me otherwise, and improper sentence structures difficult to parse accurately make it even worse. I hope he comes back with a well-thought-out, well-reasoned and informative response.
Already being done. I believe Finland already is setting up all civil contracts to be stored and verified in a blockchain and Germany is looking hard at the idea as well. Was also a group called the Bitcoin Brothers (google it) who started pushing for the same idea of storing/verifing business and civil contracts a couple years ago. Truth be told I'm rather sure that BitFury's containerized farms were built with that application in mind.

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alh
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June 22, 2016, 07:46:52 PM
 #426

Assuming you want to make a "non-currency blockchain" it would seems that several of the existing Bitcoin mechanisms don't make much sense or have a lot of utility. For example:

1) Would there be a block reward? For what purpose?

2) Is there reason to have a difficulty adjustment mechanism?

3) Would the "Transaction Processing" (aka mining) essentially become a public or "free" service?

4) It wouldn't seem that there needs to be a massive mining infrastructure as has developed around BTC. A handful of distribute machines would do it, wouldn't it?

 
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June 22, 2016, 07:52:52 PM
 #427

Actually I should probably delete my previous comment. It's really not in keeping with the point of this thread and forum. I would say that goes as well for some of the previous comments (IMHO).

I am not generally one to pretend to be a "Forum Moderator" type guy, this discussion seems to be very close to leaving the rails, if it hasn't already done so.

Just a thought.
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June 22, 2016, 08:50:50 PM
 #428

Every good idea has to start somewhere, these forums are one of those places.
If or when the idea develops, then it can mature into its own space.
The occasional link can keep said ideas in the public eye.

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June 22, 2016, 09:15:25 PM
 #429

Every good idea has to start somewhere, these forums are one of those places.
If or when the idea develops, then it can mature into its own space.
The occasional link can keep said ideas in the public eye.

Point.
NotFuzzyWarm
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June 22, 2016, 10:38:52 PM
 #430

Assuming you want to make a "non-currency blockchain" it would seems that several of the existing Bitcoin mechanisms don't make much sense or have a lot of utility. For example:

1) Would there be a block reward? For what purpose?

2) Is there reason to have a difficulty adjustment mechanism?

3) Would the "Transaction Processing" (aka mining) essentially become a public or "free" service?

4) It wouldn't seem that there needs to be a massive mining infrastructure as has developed around BTC. A handful of distribute machines would do it, wouldn't it?
Last I was really looking at call it 'general purpose' blockchains was in 2014 so some of this may be dis-remembered or has changed...

To start with, a block can contain any data that fits it's size limit. So, can be financial records, links to e-sig contracts/records, street light ID's and locations, anything.

1 - is there a reward?
Not per se. All income is derived solely from tx fees associated with that block -- which btw is intended eventually for BTC as block rewards drop. If it is Public chain then I'd assume the tx fees are collected/distributed by whatever Entity is in charge of it and the Nodes. For Finland, is probably handled by their gov with the normal fees collected for say, registering a Deed, now partly going into the TX payout pool and partly to whatever private or public entity is contracted to run the 'pool' C&C servers.

2- Difficulty. I suppose it depends on if the general Public is allowed to join the race for blocks or if it is a dedicated and private operation (who of course just charge whatever the market will bear). Think PayPal now forming direct access to the banking system and entering the closed club of credit card companies.

They now get to keep the tx fees they used to have to pay VISA/Mastercard/ et al to transfer funds through them to access the banks. Of course the Banks still take their % that VISA/MC/ et al pays for the privilege of them allowing you to join *their* little private club. It's just that PayPal cut out the middle man.

3- Would TX processing/recording become a free service? Guess it depends on what country you live in and how Socialist/Nanny State they are.

4- A handful of distribute machines would do it, wouldn't it? For many things, ja. Again, BitFury's container farms come to mind. Just plant a few of them around the country. If a later through State bidding a different contractor wins the contract to run the nodes, should be seamless transition as along as the basic code is standardized.

Und on that note, methinks it's time to move this train of discussion elsewhere...

- For bitcoin to succeed the community must police itself -    My info useful? Donations welcome!  3NtFuzyWREGoDHWeMczeJzxFZpiLAFJXYr
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-Support Sidehacks miner development. Donations to:   1BURGERAXHH6Yi6LRybRJK7ybEm5m5HwTr
ATCkit
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June 23, 2016, 03:08:32 AM
 #431

A community called Get Hashing is doing what I think aliashraf is describing. It's done by using colored coins through a Coinprsim wallet.

Here's their forum: https://forum.gethashing.com/

A person can set up an account here to buy, sell and track assets here: https://cloud.gethashing.com/

Here's an example of the ledger for payouts on an Asset called BTCB: https://ledger.gethashing.com/?search=371975a8e4b8f1a9f9abad75582bb954c7433328ed90f6c07e3e9c1abacc19ab#

They're called "smart assets" and use a "Proof of Everthing" concept. Not sure how it works but it uses the BTC blockchain.

aliashraf
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June 23, 2016, 05:58:03 AM
 #432

That's kinda how I see it. A blockchain as a means of reliably transferring and storing data in general isn't a bad idea. I just have never liked the idea of using one that already exists specifically set up to transfer currency data for other things.

Cycling the same rhetoric with the same jargon (left undefined or mostly unexplained) doesn't really do much good to convince me otherwise, and improper sentence structures difficult to parse accurately make it even worse. I hope he comes back with a well-thought-out, well-reasoned and informative response.
Well, I'm back and sorry about so-called 'improper sentence structures' . I will take care about it but you know ... not being a native English writer makes it inevitable, my apologies Smiley

I checked you and other guys responses to my proposal about stacking up a semi-smart contract protocol on top of the existing Blockchain and using it to establish a semi-autonomous distributed organisation, a SADO,  to finance projects like your 'community miner' .

First of all I have to mention without money, supplied and managed in a proper fashion, there is and there will be no community miner. Actually when you or anybody comes to a forum and starts a topic like this he is talking about the resources needed to do the job, obvious ... I don't feel we are out of rail and contrariwise I feel we are actually talking about the 'community miner' project, for the first time ever.

And about the Bitcoin Blockchain being specialized for money and cryptocurrency and the possibility of running a generalized version of the protocol  for supporting a semi-smart contract stuff ... oh! some points missed here

1- Obviously your 'community miner' project is about this blockchain, isn't it? It is strictly of this blockchain's interest and its community and if there is one semi-smart contract being a use case to be implemented on the Bitcoin Blockchain it is the project under consideration.


2- And a far more important point that the majority of advocates and writers fail to notice  and understand is the ultimate role of money:
Money is the destination of everything, most of the real world use cases of contracts are about money and are aimed and will be ended to transfer money. Money is an infrastructure for the majority of our social behaviors including economy, politics, art, media, ... It isn't just a use case among others it is the critical infrastructure of our civilization and is going to remain so for near predictable future.

3- From my point of view, a semi-smart contract is a regulatory mechanism about a semi-automatic transfer of money, a mechanism in which the sender has obligations to 'sign' the transfer according to the law , the code (definitively not a Turing complete stupid code supporting loops and recursions Grin) ...

What if she didn't sign? simple! she will loose her other stakes.

What if she had no money to pay? simple! she will be bailed out by the SADO and will sign a contract to pay back and compensate as long as she is a respected member.


My proposal is about considering a practical protocol development project to implement a SADO on the Bitcoin Blockchain with 'community miner' as its first project to finance.



aliashraf
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June 23, 2016, 06:14:04 AM
 #433

Now that I have come to this point let me to reveal my other secrets:

The way I understand semi-smart contracts and SADO's they are the ultimate answers to the canonical debate about the Bitcoin scalability and I deeply believe there will be no other long term solution for problems like micro payments and the headroom needed for high volume transaction processing.

It is really getting the topic out of rail now, but as a big picture better to be outlined here. Wink

What is a micro payment? It is or it can be interpreted as an obligation to transfer money, guaranteed by a SADO.

What is the nature of a high volume financial transaction processing environment? It is or it can be interpreted as a stream of micro payments.
sidehack
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June 23, 2016, 12:52:21 PM
 #434

I think one of the problems is, you assume I have a more firm grasp on the full meaning (and implication of that meaning) of terms like "semi-smart contract" and "SADO" than I actually do. Please explain like this is the first time the listener has ever heard those phrases. Like I said, I'm generally opposed to overlaying things not "transfer money from A to B" on the blockchain so I admittedly have ignored all discussions on that line. I put enough time into hardware without getting mixed up in philosophy.

That said, my philosophy on "money" disagrees with the statement that "money is the destination of everything". Money, to me, is a tool just like anything else. It's a construct that allows me to turn stuff into different stuff, and effort into reward. Money is not the goal, money is a means of translating work and stuff into the goal - whatever that goal may be. But yeah, most agreements or contracts do hinge on turning work into money or stuff into money, which for one side is work into money and the other side money into the goal. I've just never liked the idea of "having lots of money" being the goal in itself, because money is useless by definition if it's not being used.

Cool, quiet and up to 1TH pod miner, on sale now!
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2112
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June 23, 2016, 02:08:06 PM
 #435

Now that I have come to this point let me to reveal my other secrets:

The way I understand semi-smart contracts and SADO's they are the ultimate answers to the canonical debate about the Bitcoin scalability and I deeply believe there will be no other long term solution for problems like micro payments and the headroom needed for high volume transaction processing.
Secrets?

Ultimate answer is "semi-smart contracts and SADOs"?

Wrong!

The Ultimate Answer is 42.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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June 24, 2016, 07:32:17 AM
 #436


. I personally belive that even 55nm chips heavily undervolted (0.3V) can run extremely efficient with modified design.


 I doubt a 55 nm chip CAN run at 0.3 volts.

 I've not seen a 28nm chip manage that, much less a 55nm.


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aliashraf
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June 24, 2016, 09:26:45 AM
Last edit: June 24, 2016, 10:34:27 AM by aliashraf
 #437

I think one of the problems is, you assume I have a more firm grasp on the full meaning (and implication of that meaning) of terms like "semi-smart contract" and "SADO" than I actually do. Please explain like this is the first time the listener has ever heard those phrases. Like I said, I'm generally opposed to overlaying things not "transfer money from A to B" on the blockchain so I admittedly have ignored all discussions on that line. I put enough time into hardware without getting mixed up in philosophy.

That said, my philosophy on "money" disagrees with the statement that "money is the destination of everything". Money, to me, is a tool just like anything else. It's a construct that allows me to turn stuff into different stuff, and effort into reward. Money is not the goal, money is a means of translating work and stuff into the goal - whatever that goal may be. But yeah, most agreements or contracts do hinge on turning work into money or stuff into money, which for one side is work into money and the other side money into the goal. I've just never liked the idea of "having lots of money" being the goal in itself, because money is useless by definition if it's not being used.
About hating greed and paying no attention to money per se … No objections and thumbs up 
I think the majority of people (admitting it or not) pay no shit about money and hate it, deep in their hearts … but as a dirty tool money have this unique feature that can translate and measure most of the real world contracts. It is more than enough for justifying my proposal to build semi-smart contracts on top of the Bitcoin Blockchain.

It is too much for me to give a formal description of my proposal , it is premature, more a ‘requirement’  than a proposal or even an idea. But I’ll do my best  Smiley

let's begin with a preface focusing on our (actually ‘your’)  community miner project:

1-   We need funds, investments should be made.
2-   This funds should go somewhere, be kept, be accounted, be allocated and spent under a managerial decision making process.
3-   Our potential investors mainly are Bitcoin community members who
      a1.   have strategic alignment with the project goals and objectives as a community member
      a2.      have ordinary interests about ROI  as an ordinary investor
      b.   need and deserve to have a voice in the managerial and strategic decisions.
      c.   need transparency and accountability.
      d.   need proof of ownership and interest
4-   Our key technical staff (probably headed by you) :
      a.   should have job satisfaction in both technical and beneficial terms
      b.   should have a voice in decision making processes
      c.   need appreciation and respect, being isolated from acquisitions and arguments about conspiracy, fraud, …
5-   our target market, being Bitcoin community:
      a.   needs reliable and accountable information about the state of the project
      b.   needs to have a voice on the most strategic discussions and dispute resolutions
6-   Our socioeconomic environment:
      a.   Has juristic and authoritative rights to be considered and handled properly
      b.   Generates signals and indexes and other data referenceable  in the internal communications and discussions (tax tables,  stock and exchange                prices, electricity fees, government regulations, laws , … )
7-   …

Most parts of this image seems not to be  avant-garde and inspiring enough and surprisingly we always find ourselves bored hearing stuff like this, do you know why? Traditional institutes and greedy corporates have ruined it!
They pretend to have most of this image implemented already, a lie!
The so called “management consultancy” firms make hypes and advertisements about their dedication and achievements in implementing this measures, another lie!

Literally there is not and will not be a straightforward guaranteed way of achieving this level of "make all happy" scenario in a centralized organization run by a bunch of greedy elites seeking their goal functions to be optimized.

DAO failure, on the other hand proved widely it is not a trivial job to be left to the game theory enthusiasts to accomplish.
It is not just a simple failure of a piece of code, not even just the failure of teenagerism and underestimating the real world.  It is the failure of the game theory approach to solving real world problems using an instrument fueled by aspiration and arrogance.

But it is about Bitcoin future, the community mining project I mean, it is about keeping Bitcoin decentralized and Bitcoin community have to do something about it.
The centralized world, corporates, governments can’t do (and wouldn’t do if they could) anything about it.
An ordinary traditional company can’t understand the motivations and strategic parts of this business and eventually fails to become anything much far from Bitmain , Bitfury, … not a chance, practically zero.

Individually, without a good establishment and investment you can’t do much than what you have already done, good for you and thank you about it Smiley, but not enough to keep Bitcoin on the rail.

So what? Surrender and give up? Absolutely not a recommended option.

I’ll start another thread and will put a link here and a link to this discussion there respectively. I’ll try to give some outlines and invite people to contribute. I’ll try to define my intended perception of words like semi-smart contracts and Semi-Autonomous Distributed Organization, SADO.

Obviously as the term ‘semi’ implies it is about a compromise between  our soft and sweet dreams about implementing an exciting respected, democratic, fair, profit making institution to work and live in it,  proud and satisfied,   on one side, and the harsh, bitter taste of the real world, on the other side.
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June 25, 2016, 02:47:40 AM
 #438

I think one of the problems is, you assume I have a more firm grasp on the full meaning (and implication of that meaning) of terms like "semi-smart contract" and "SADO" than I actually do. Please explain like this is the first time the listener has ever heard those phrases. Like I said, I'm generally opposed to overlaying things not "transfer money from A to B" on the blockchain so I admittedly have ignored all discussions on that line. I put enough time into hardware without getting mixed up in philosophy.

That said, my philosophy on "money" disagrees with the statement that "money is the destination of everything". Money, to me, is a tool just like anything else. It's a construct that allows me to turn stuff into different stuff, and effort into reward. Money is not the goal, money is a means of translating work and stuff into the goal - whatever that goal may be. But yeah, most agreements or contracts do hinge on turning work into money or stuff into money, which for one side is work into money and the other side money into the goal. I've just never liked the idea of "having lots of money" being the goal in itself, because money is useless by definition if it's not being used.
About hating greed and paying no attention to money per se … No objections and thumbs up 
I think the majority of people (admitting it or not) pay no shit about money and hate it, deep in their hearts … but as a dirty tool money have this unique feature that can translate and measure most of the real world contracts. It is more than enough for justifying my proposal to build semi-smart contracts on top of the Bitcoin Blockchain.

It is too much for me to give a formal description of my proposal , it is premature, more a ‘requirement’  than a proposal or even an idea. But I’ll do my best  Smiley

let's begin with a preface focusing on our (actually ‘your’)  community miner project:

1-   We need funds, investments should be made.
2-   This funds should go somewhere, be kept, be accounted, be allocated and spent under a managerial decision making process.
3-   Our potential investors mainly are Bitcoin community members who
      a1.   have strategic alignment with the project goals and objectives as a community member
      a2.      have ordinary interests about ROI  as an ordinary investor
      b.   need and deserve to have a voice in the managerial and strategic decisions.
      c.   need transparency and accountability.
      d.   need proof of ownership and interest
4-   Our key technical staff (probably headed by you) :
      a.   should have job satisfaction in both technical and beneficial terms
      b.   should have a voice in decision making processes
      c.   need appreciation and respect, being isolated from acquisitions and arguments about conspiracy, fraud, …
5-   our target market, being Bitcoin community:
      a.   needs reliable and accountable information about the state of the project
      b.   needs to have a voice on the most strategic discussions and dispute resolutions
6-   Our socioeconomic environment:
      a.   Has juristic and authoritative rights to be considered and handled properly
      b.   Generates signals and indexes and other data referenceable  in the internal communications and discussions (tax tables,  stock and exchange                prices, electricity fees, government regulations, laws , … )
7-   …

Most parts of this image seems not to be  avant-garde and inspiring enough and surprisingly we always find ourselves bored hearing stuff like this, do you know why? Traditional institutes and greedy corporates have ruined it!
They pretend to have most of this image implemented already, a lie!
The so called “management consultancy” firms make hypes and advertisements about their dedication and achievements in implementing this measures, another lie!

Literally there is not and will not be a straightforward guaranteed way of achieving this level of "make all happy" scenario in a centralized organization run by a bunch of greedy elites seeking their goal functions to be optimized.

DAO failure, on the other hand proved widely it is not a trivial job to be left to the game theory enthusiasts to accomplish.
It is not just a simple failure of a piece of code, not even just the failure of teenagerism and underestimating the real world.  It is the failure of the game theory approach to solving real world problems using an instrument fueled by aspiration and arrogance.

But it is about Bitcoin future, the community mining project I mean, it is about keeping Bitcoin decentralized and Bitcoin community have to do something about it.
The centralized world, corporates, governments can’t do (and wouldn’t do if they could) anything about it.
An ordinary traditional company can’t understand the motivations and strategic parts of this business and eventually fails to become anything much far from Bitmain , Bitfury, … not a chance, practically zero.

Individually, without a good establishment and investment you can’t do much than what you have already done, good for you and thank you about it Smiley, but not enough to keep Bitcoin on the rail.

So what? Surrender and give up? Absolutely not a recommended option.

I’ll start another thread and will put a link here and a link to this discussion there respectively. I’ll try to give some outlines and invite people to contribute. I’ll try to define my intended perception of words like semi-smart contracts and Semi-Autonomous Distributed Organization, SADO.

Obviously as the term ‘semi’ implies it is about a compromise between  our soft and sweet dreams about implementing an exciting respected, democratic, fair, profit making institution to work and live in it,  proud and satisfied,   on one side, and the harsh, bitter taste of the real world, on the other side.


That is a whole lot of words - if it is anything like the DAO, count me out.  I am dedicated to somehow, someway making a Community Miner.  I WILL GET IT DONE - as far as expanding or somehow encompassing a smart contract or even associating the "Community Miner" with such a business plan or proposition would be a fail in my book.

I think what you have failed to read on this thread is that the purpose of this miner is to empower the little guys.  Any dealings like what you are suggesting is a, well, COMPLETE SELL OUT

Bitcoin Will Only Succeed If The Community That Supports It Gets Support - Support Home Miners & Mining
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June 25, 2016, 03:56:31 AM
 #439

Oh hey Kilo, we should catch up sometime.

Cool, quiet and up to 1TH pod miner, on sale now!
Currently in development - 200+GH USB stick; 6TH volt-adjustable S1/3/5 upgrade kit
Server PSU interface boards and cables. USB and small-scale miners. Hardware hosting, advice and odd-jobs. Supporting the home miner community since 2013 - http://www.gekkoscience.com
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June 25, 2016, 12:30:20 PM
 #440

Indeed Kilo should catch up with Sidehack some time. It'll be a lot of fun I hope then.
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