Piece of Shit Bitcoiners et al. Hall of Fame

[TPTB_need_war]

Helping investors make money is good, but doing it in such a way that makes it impossible for that to ever be widely adopted because you won't get many people to invest in the ecosystem built around a scam, means that this has no positive benefit. If Evan was honest in his presentation on the website, I would have nothing to say other than to say I wouldn't invest, advise others not to based on the history, and perhaps mention the possible liability of SEC and FinCEN action. But the way Evan deceives the public, means he is going to give our entire sector a bad reputation around nefarious deception. The scam can't be hidden forever. It won't just go away. It will be the poster child of altcoin corruption that people look back on.

1. Your debate starts and ends at the point where you consider Evan's actions immoral. You are entitled to think that and nobody can tell you anything about it.

Please define the difference between a scam and unethical (and probably illegal in the USA and perhaps the EU at least) deception of investors?

I am still waiting for you reply. You chose to ignore this challenge, thus you lost the debate.

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[TPTB_need_war]

Please define "ripping people off" unambiguously such that all those on the OP's list FACTUALLY qualify but Evan doesn't.

In most scams you can say

a) What the scam is
b) What is the financial size of the scam
c) Who are the victims of the scam / Who got ripped off
d) How much did the victims lose

Example (Karpeles):

a) "Losing" or stealing the money of investors and pretended to be hacked
b) 700k+ BTC / 700mn USD
c) People who had funds in his exchange
d) 700k+ BTC / 700mn USD collectively / individually 700k+ BTC divided by their respective deposits in cash or BTCs.

You can claim "scam" for any number of reasons but can't tell me (b), (c), (d).

Okay you are focused on quantifying what got ripped off, which you claim is necessary to conclude that people did get ripped off. (which is ludicrous, there are ways of ascertaining that people got ripped off without quantifying it precisely and identifying the victims, analogous to I can see a plane crash and presume there are victims without quantifying or identifying, but let's for the moment follow your twisted mindset...)

So according to your definition, there exists no scam until we are able to subpoena all the exchanges that trade DRK (and presume that all of them are strictly enforcing KYC), so that we can gather the specific calculations of whom was buying from an insider, how much the insiders were able to manipulate the price and volume with their alleged control over the float (due to 32.1% instamine and presumed further concentration of coin supply to insiders due to the dividend paying masternode scheme), and know all the identities of all the people involved.

What AlexGR proposes is that we will need KYC every where because otherwise there is no way to stop scams by putting the scam leaders (and accomplices such as AlexGR!) on Shit lists such as the OP. So AlexGR is for big government and enslavement of everyone. Ostensibly Evan sends his accomplices over here to argue against honest disclosure to n00bs.

However, note there was no such proof about Mt. Gox until that data was obtained by the authorities.

So you can't definitively prove that b), c), and d) don't exist.

And the evidence we have presented overwhelmingly favors the conclusion that b), c), and d) do exist if the authorities ever get around to collecting all the data.

Thus the evidence overwhelmingly favors putting Evan into the OP's list.

I believe there are many people on the OP's list that have not yet been convicted in a court of law. And thus where the numbers you demand have not yet been established as fact by an impartial authority.

Therefor your definition excluded entire classes of people who should be on the list and are on the list. So you failed my challenge and have lost the debate. Now please stop wasting my time. You want to do illegal and unethical scams that rip people off. Go ahead. I want nothing to do with you. Stay far away from me please.

Except for ponzi/pyramid related schemes, in which case every scammer claims there are no victims.

And nothing can be proven unequivocally until all the data around the scam can be collected and correlated.

This is one reason why ponzi/pyramid scams are so difficult for n00bs to avoid. Because aholes like AlexGR get up here and tell them that everything it okay and that it is just a "free market" when in fact it is manipulated ponzi market.

[TPTB_need_war]

Come on now boys. If you are so sure this is not a scam, then make your sworn disclosures about your involvement in it. Are you afraid of future SEC and FinCEN actions and thus afraid to disclosure. Hmmm.

Stop obfuscating with off topic diversionary tactics.

I am trying to rescue you idiots. But you are determined to dig own pathway to jail.

Wake up and see the light pronto for your own sake.

Thank you for your interest, if genuine. However, to quote Hillary Clinton (since you mentioned the Clintons a lot in some of your posts):

"It’s a stark fact that the United States has less than five percent of the world’s population, yet we have almost 25 percent of the world’s total prison population."

I'm in the 95%+ of the global population (=non US citizen). I'm also unaffected by the prison-mania of the USA, FinCEN, SEC etc. Not that if I were affected I would have something to worry about.

Come-from-Beyond (who is in Belarus) make a similar line of argument to me.

It seems to me that those who grew up in these (former?) Communist states developed a culture of theft, because that was the only way to game the totalitarian system. We all know that Communism is a philosophy of stealing from each other.

And now they blame that on the Americans who worked more diligently and with attention to quality and pride in one's work, than any other nation except perhaps Japan. Globalist leaders insinuate it is okay for your to steal to take back from the evil Americans who took more than their fair share. They urge you to continue the Communist paradigm of ganging up on your neighbor.

I call on American software developers to take the high ground and show the world our cultural heritage and values. Let's teach these Eastern Europeans why America kicks ass with productivity and trying to do the right thing.

Now I will surely agree with you that so many Americans have become dysfunctional Socialists and are milking the reserve currency status. And I will agree with you that American leaders have abused other nations, and in fact Antony Sutton researched and concluded that the banksters from America and Europe installed the Bolshevik revolution. I haven't studied your history enough, so I don't want to make any claim.

I will just try to urge you to please lose that Communist attitude and please work to make the world a better place. We need to not end up in an unethical clusterfuck Dark Age. And take back your right to own a gun because without that, you are nothing against totalitarianism.

The USA is fucked up and it will need to break up into separate regions where those who have shared values can congregate. There are big changes coming to world accelerating as of 2018.

I urge you to look past the tip of your nose and be part of the better future. Let's go make it. I am 51. My time to be highly productive at the top level has peaked; and I am on the tail end of my career. You are young. You make this world. Please think about what you are doing.

Edit: and Evan is an American and thus all the more I demand he not insult the reputation of American developers by operating perhaps the most scammy altcoin by market cap (although some might argue that is Ripple).

[iCEBREAKER]

An instamine is a premine...

What? Say again.

Technically instamines are different than premines because of differences in esoteric coinbase origin stories.

Premines must be created by the devs, while instamines are slightly more democratic in that there could be any number of participants.  A well advertised instamine with many participants may be just a coin with an unusually large early emission, so they are not as necessarily centralized as premines.

In Dash's case, technicalities about genesis blocks aren't sufficient distinctions to make a difference, especially when the terms normally apply to coins that (accurately/honestly) pre-announce intention to have insta/pre mines (usually for funding purposes).

Dash's fiasco of a ninja-launch, featuring an "accidental" 33% of all coins ever going to the dev and a handful of insiders more or less right away, is the functional equivalent of a premine.

Dash conspicuously lacks a strictly and successfully mathematically defined emission curve, which is the basis for any legitimate Bitcoin-like e-cash/digital hard asset.

Dash is whatever Duffield feels like doing this week.  In the Evan's Gate cult, there is no social contract other than "Obey Supreme Master Duffield; He is our Satoshi."

Dash has nothing like BTC's 21 million coin limit, which makes it even more implausible that Duffield couldn't burn the instamine or relaunch with fair notice and a patch for the "accidental" instamine-causing "bug."

With Masternodes being sold as a HYIP, THE DARKCOIN FOUNDTION INC's entire cockamamie scheme reeks of malfeasance.

[AlexGR]

Please define the difference between a scam and unethical (and probably illegal in the USA and perhaps the EU at least) deception of investors?

I am still waiting for you reply. You chose to ignore this challenge, thus you lost the debate.

Ethics are highly subjective. We can debate ethics endlessly.

[TPTB_need_war]

As I warned you, the countries will be pushed towards cooperating against financial crime:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-panama-papers

The globalists are destroying the nation-states on purpose and inciting the masses to clamor for a global discipline on malfeasance. I've known for a long time this would be coming. One thing you will learn about me by observing me over time is my ability to predict the future. For example was my 2011 prediction that the nations would not exit the EU and instead would double-down for more sloppy seconds.

[AlexGR]

As I warned you, the countries will be pushed towards cooperating against financial crime:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-panama-papers

The globalists are destroying the nation-states on purpose and inciting the masses to clamor for a global discipline on malfeasance. I've known for a long time this would be coming. One thing you will learn about me by observing me over time is my ability to predict the future. For example was my 2011 prediction that the nations would not exit the EU and instead would double-down for more sloppy seconds.

For a person with such a breadth of understanding regarding global expansion of totalitarianism, why would you insist on others publicly disclosing stuff like their cryptoholdings, when, tomorrow for example, crypto could be illegal and all such posts might be admissions of possession and thus grounds for confiscation?

Do you even have any cryptocurrency?

[TPTB_need_war]

You've documented lots of things around these forums. The reality is, far from being an technical "authority" on cryptos

Dude I've been schooling Gmaxwell and for example TierNolan among many others. Get a grip on reality.

Evan replied in my thread and did not refute my assertion of the egregious math error.

Please don't waste my time again. Please. I don't have time to respond to all your slobbering.

[TPTB_need_war]

As I warned you, the countries will be pushed towards cooperating against financial crime:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-panama-papers

The globalists are destroying the nation-states on purpose and inciting the masses to clamor for a global discipline on malfeasance. I've known for a long time this would be coming. One thing you will learn about me by observing me over time is my ability to predict the future. For example was my 2011 prediction that the nations would not exit the EU and instead would double-down for more sloppy seconds.

For a person with such a breadth of understanding regarding global expansion of totalitarianism, why would you insist on others publicly disclosing stuff like their cryptoholdings, when, tomorrow for example, crypto could be illegal and all such posts might be admissions of possession and thus grounds for confiscation?

Cripes man, did this point completely fly over your head that you are the one who is demanding that everyone disclose everything so we can count and prove all the victims.

I am arguing it should be sufficient to just declare Evan a sleazy scammer who rips off people by designing a scam to control the float and manipulate the price and volume, as well printing press coins out of thin air masternode scheme, handing them to insiders, and dumping them on the market.

Could I ask that you please don't waste my entire day on this redundant shit.

Do you even have any cryptocurrency?

Yes Bitcoin.

Ethics are highly subjective.

That is what someone with no ethics says. Ethics are quite objective. But I don't have time to go off on that tangent with you which you can begin by unconflating morality and ethics. For example, pursuing zero-sum games (where you must take from others in order to gain) is objectively unethical when a non-zero-sum alternative(s) exist. This is why Communism is objectively unethical.

[AlexGR]

As I warned you, the countries will be pushed towards cooperating against financial crime:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-panama-papers

The globalists are destroying the nation-states on purpose and inciting the masses to clamor for a global discipline on malfeasance. I've known for a long time this would be coming. One thing you will learn about me by observing me over time is my ability to predict the future. For example was my 2011 prediction that the nations would not exit the EU and instead would double-down for more sloppy seconds.

For a person with such a breadth of understanding regarding global expansion of totalitarianism, why would you insist on others publicly disclosing stuff like their cryptoholdings, when, tomorrow for example, crypto could be illegal and all such posts might be admissions of possession and thus grounds for confiscation?

Cripes man, did this point completely fly over your head that you are the one who is demanding that everyone disclose everything so we can count and prove all the victims.

If I say "I had 100 bitcoins and you stole them from me" then I'm not admitting possession in real time. I *had* them. I don't *currently* have them thus such information would not be incriminating in a future where cryptocurrency becomes illegal. You cannot break the law with retro-active effect in any serious constitutional state. The law must first exist so that you can the break it. So if I say, right now, you stole my BTCs, and a law comes in effect next year saying I'm not allowed to have BTCs, I've not broken any laws.

For someone who has an attorney as a father, these are pretty elemental.

I am arguing it should be sufficient to just declare Evan a sleazy scammer who rips off people by designing a scam to control the float and manipulate the price and volume, as well printing press coins out of thin air masternode scheme, handing them to insiders, and dumping them on the market.

Ok, so you are not OK with proving the scam so you just want to declare people "sleazy scammers".

That's OK, as far as I'm concerned. You can make a list of "Sleazy scammers" and put Evan in there, along with anyone else you like - or more precisely anyone else you *don't* like. After all it'll be your thread, your criteria, etc etc. But you are here arguing to put Evan on a list of people where actual scams have taken place. You can't do that. What you can do, to approximate this and be somewhat legitimate in your claims, is to make a "potential scam" list and add Dash in there, if you so like, and also add Evan as a "potential scammer".

Everyone's innocent until proven guilty, you know... And, if you call people scammers when they haven't actually scammed people, that's a criminal offense in itself. But I don't really care about the various laws like these as we are literally in the cryptojungle where anything flies.... How many coins, claiming anonymity, came post May 2014 and said "ohhh Evan is a scammer, DRK is a scam and we'll do it better and non-scammy"? What happened in virtually every single case? All the investors got scammed and/or lost their money by those who claimed that they weren't scammers like Evan. XCurrency was the first... reached something like 15mn usd if I remember correctly... then came a whole list of "anonymous" coins that all resulted in catastrophic (for the investors) dumps. And all these happened while claiming DRK and Evan are scams. So the people who promoted this narrative about DRK and Evan actually became enablers to the biggest scams in cryptospace.

[AlexGR]

That is what someone with no ethics says. Ethics are quite objective. But I don't have time to go off on that tangent with you which you can begin by unconflating morality and ethics.

There is something objective, and I can expand on this if you want to learn about it (it extends to re-writing game theory to account for un-factored costs that have gone unnoticed for decades) but it's on a layer that is untouched by 99.9999% of the population. So, for the intended discussion, and since for the public at large ethics are "shoulds", I will just quote your link:

=>

Although the terms “morality” and “ethics” are sometimes used synonymously, it is useful to adopt the following distinction:

Morality is descriptive, it is concerned with social norms and people’s moral intuitions. Ethics on the other hand is normative; it doesn’t describe how people act, but how they should act (this still requires a clarification for the word “should”!).

[AlexGR]

Dash's fiasco of a ninja-launch, featuring an "accidental" 33% of all coins ever going to the dev and a handful of insiders more or less right away, is the functional equivalent of a premine.

Out of ~20mn coins, a "33% ever" is around 6.6mn coins. And DASH has only 6.3mn, after 26 months running (and inflating)... yet somehow Evan instamined more than the entire current monetary supply.

Stick to posting "bikini girl incidents" because in terms of facts you aren't very good.

Icebreaker #REKT.

[TPTB_need_war]

As I warned you, the countries will be pushed towards cooperating against financial crime:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-panama-papers

The globalists are destroying the nation-states on purpose and inciting the masses to clamor for a global discipline on malfeasance. I've known for a long time this would be coming. One thing you will learn about me by observing me over time is my ability to predict the future. For example was my 2011 prediction that the nations would not exit the EU and instead would double-down for more sloppy seconds.

For a person with such a breadth of understanding regarding global expansion of totalitarianism, why would you insist on others publicly disclosing stuff like their cryptoholdings, when, tomorrow for example, crypto could be illegal and all such posts might be admissions of possession and thus grounds for confiscation?

Cripes man, did this point completely fly over your head that you are the one who is demanding that everyone disclose everything so we can count and prove all the victims.

If I say "I had 100 bitcoins and you stole them from me" then I'm not admitting possession in real time. I *had* them. I don't *currently* have them thus such information would not be incriminating in a future where cryptocurrency becomes illegal. You cannot break the law with retro-active effect in any serious constitutional state. The law must first exist so that you can the break it. So if I say, right now, you stole my BTCs, and a law comes in effect next year saying I'm not allowed to have BTCs, I've not broken any laws.

Now you are arguing the Statute-of-Limitations can turn an unquantified but generally exposed "rip off" into a legal activity and thus there was never anybody ripped off.

Holy shit. You just verified for everyone the way your twisted criminal mind rationalizes Evan's what I allege is to be illegal activity.

Note it is 10 years in the USA from the last act for financial crimes, so Evan won't be safe from criminal proceedings until 2026 at the earliest.

I am arguing it should be sufficient to just declare Evan a sleazy scammer who rips off people by designing a scam to control the float and manipulate the price and volume, as well printing press coins out of thin air masternode scheme, handing them to insiders, and dumping them on the market.

Ok, so you are not OK with proving the scam so you just want to declare people "sleazy scammers".

We feel we sufficiently proved the scam to argue for him being on a list of who this community thinks scammed and ripped off some of us in the community.

Everyone's innocent until proven guilty, you know...

Not in terms of public opinion. You seem to realize that, which is why you are desperately trying to obscure the truth here.

And, if you call people scammers when they haven't actually scammed people, that's a criminal offense in itself.

Let's take it to court and subpoena all the records so you can have your proof of the scam and a conviction in a court-of-law (civil or criminal or both) of the scammer. I will counter-sue for damages and seek an injunction to escrow/lockup DRK masternode developer funds to cover costs of losing the case. If those collapse in value due to the court case, will seek an injunction to seize for escrow against Evan and accomplice's real assets. Based on the manipulative nature of what has transpired, I would expect Evan and accomplices to try to hide and dispose of real assets and would argue that to the court.

[Vladimir1988]

The list is certainly not all

[AlexGR]

We feel we sufficiently proved the scam

Not sure if serious

[TPTB_need_war]

Dash's fiasco of a ninja-launch, featuring an "accidental" 33% of all coins ever going to the dev and a handful of insiders more or less right away, is the functional equivalent of a premine.

Out of ~20mn coins, a "33% ever" is around 6.6mn coins.

He shrank the planned coin supply once already.

But that is not even needed. You are totally disingenuous. The masternode scheme pays out the new coins proportional to the holdings percentage of the coin supply at inception. Duh!

Come on dufus. Get the fuck off my lawn. I am tired of playing with your dumb, redundant asshat.

[AlexGR]

Dash's fiasco of a ninja-launch, featuring an "accidental" 33% of all coins ever going to the dev and a handful of insiders more or less right away, is the functional equivalent of a premine.

Out of ~20mn coins, a "33% ever" is around 6.6mn coins.

He shrank the planned coin supply once already.

You are not helping the "Icebreaker #REKT" case. The argument is even worse with a larger coin supply. Basic maths man: 33% of 84mn (original spec) means Evan should have at least 27.72 million darkcoins to have instamined 33% ever.

Both #REKT.

[TPTB_need_war]

Dash's fiasco of a ninja-launch, featuring an "accidental" 33% of all coins ever going to the dev and a handful of insiders more or less right away, is the functional equivalent of a premine.

Out of ~20mn coins, a "33% ever" is around 6.6mn coins.

He shrank the planned coin supply once already.

You are not helping the "Icebreaker #REKT" case. The argument is even worse with a larger coin supply. Basic maths man: 33% of 84mn (original spec) means Evan should have at least 27.72 million darkcoins to have instamined 33% ever.

Well thanks for admitting you have no shred of an argument remaining, as you are now resorting to complete nonsense.

Now we've determined that another likely reason for your inability to comprehend the trouble you are in, is because you simply lack sufficient IQ (or are so disingenuous and deluded into thinking people are stupid enough to not understand you just stated nonsense).

[AlexGR]

Well thanks for admitting you have no shred of an argument remaining, as you are now resorting to complete nonsense.

Now we've determined that another likely reason for your inability to comprehend the trouble you are in, is because you simply lack sufficient IQ (or are so disingenuous and deluded into thinking people are stupid enough to not understand you just stated nonsense).

33% ever of 84mn = 27.7mn
33% ever of 21mn = 6.93mn

Neither of these are even possible 26 months later (because the coin supply is still less than 33% of 21mn - currently at 6.3mn).

And you continue pretending I don't make sense?

Seriously...?

[TPTB_need_war]

Well thanks for admitting you have no shred of an argument remaining, as you are now resorting to complete nonsense.

Now we've determined that another likely reason for your inability to comprehend the trouble you are in, is because you simply lack sufficient IQ (or are so disingenuous and deluded into thinking people are stupid enough to not understand you just stated nonsense).

33% ever of 84mn = 27.7mn
33% ever of 21mn = 6.93mn

Neither of these are even possible 26 months later (because the coin supply is still less than 33% of 21mn - currently at 6.3mn).

And you continue pretending I don't make sense?

Seriously...?

Can you continue pretending you didn't read (or comprehend) my rebuttal to that.

Ask someone with sufficient IQ to translate this elementary school math for you:

But that is not even needed. You are totally disingenuous. The masternode scheme pays out the new coins proportional to the holdings percentage of the coin supply at inception. Duh!