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Author Topic: Looking for people to store some of the forum's money  (Read 34983 times)
steamboat
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March 05, 2013, 07:26:06 PM
 #161

Sure I will hold 500 btc in storage with out a full reserve requirement. I think you need 100% reserve but can be held in any accepted currencies in predetermined ratios. 

I un-nominate Sublime5447.

Reason: his last 543 posts.

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sublime5447
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March 05, 2013, 07:35:17 PM
 #162

way to take me out of context what kind of bullshit is that? 

I have never offered to hold the forums money. I dont want it and anyone that does is suspect.

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March 05, 2013, 07:50:51 PM
 #163

I dont want it and anyone that does is suspect.

Okay, let me have it then (would that be a bullish sign?)  Tongue

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sublime5447
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March 05, 2013, 07:52:16 PM
 #164

No that would be a scammer sign

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March 05, 2013, 08:08:40 PM
 #165

way to take me out of context what kind of bullshit is that? 

I have never offered to hold the forums money. I dont want it and anyone that does is suspect.

Taken out of context? The thread is titled "Looking for people to store some of the forum's money". The OP states:

I am holding too much money for the forum. This is contrary to the forum's otherwise decentralized structure. I'd like to get some extremely trustworthy people to hold smaller chunks of the forum's money (maybe 250-500 BTC per person).
...
If you're interested, post here with how much you would charge for this service and what your reserve policy would be.

The eleventh reply, made by you states:

Sure I will hold 500 btc in storage with out a full reserve requirement. I think you need 100% reserve but can be held in any accepted currencies in predetermined ratios. 

Were you not offering to hold 500 btc in storage without a full reserve requirement? If not, my apologies for the confusion. It appeared to me as though you were offering to hold 500 btc in storage without a full reserve requirement in response to a thread created to find people to hold btc in storage without a full reserve requirement.

While we're here, full reserve means holding 100% of something someone gives you. If person A gives the bank $1, and the bank decides to purchase a pack of gum, holding the pack of gum and change as the deposit, the bank is not holding person A's deposit in full reserve.

Similarly, If a forum member is given BTC500 to hold in full reserve and buys $500, keeping the remainder BTC along with the $, they are not holding the original deposit in full reserve.

So when you say you think the forum should hold all funds in 100% reserve but held in any accepted currencies are you suggesting they leave the deposit in BTC form, or hedge the deposit by purchasing another accepted form of currency?

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March 05, 2013, 08:44:56 PM
 #166

...

Laws = violence. I'm uneasy about using violence in response to a non-violent breach of contract. I also want to avoid relying on or dealing with governments.

I thought about including a paragraph saying that the treasurer will be "outlawed" if he breaks the contract, and everyone with similar non-legal contracts would be able to ignore their own obligations to the treasurer in question. But maybe this is taking things too far.

Wow I'm impressed, this could actually work and don't worry about taking it too far, Bitcoin is like Wild West at this moment.

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March 05, 2013, 08:57:26 PM
 #167

I understand what you are trying to accomplish. But really, the agreement would be, you take the funds, you're banned. Maybe that should be part of the agreement. Stripped of any forum title and one that says stole forum funds added.

They'll definitely get a scammer tag if they run off with the money.

Is it not a possibility to have funds stored at a specific address so that community members could verify the balances?

That'll be done.

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sublime5447
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March 05, 2013, 09:04:22 PM
 #168

way to take me out of context what kind of bullshit is that? 

I have never offered to hold the forums money. I dont want it and anyone that does is suspect.

Taken out of context? The thread is titled "Looking for people to store some of the forum's money". The OP states:

I am holding too much money for the forum. This is contrary to the forum's otherwise decentralized structure. I'd like to get some extremely trustworthy people to hold smaller chunks of the forum's money (maybe 250-500 BTC per person).
...
If you're interested, post here with how much you would charge for this service and what your reserve policy would be.

The eleventh reply, made by you states:

Sure I will hold 500 btc in storage with out a full reserve requirement. I think you need 100% reserve but can be held in any accepted currencies in predetermined ratios. 
Were you not offering to hold 500 btc in storage without a full reserve requirement? If not, my apologies for the confusion. It appeared to me as though you were offering to hold 500 btc in storage without a full reserve requirement in response to a thread created to find people to hold btc in storage without a full reserve requirement.

While we're here, full reserve means holding 100% of something someone gives you. If person A gives the bank $1, and the bank decides to purchase a pack of gum, holding the pack of gum and change as the deposit, the bank is not holding person A's deposit in full reserve.

Similarly, If a forum member is given BTC500 to hold in full reserve and buys $500, keeping the remainder BTC along with the $, they are not holding the original deposit in full reserve.

So when you say you think the forum should hold all funds in 100% reserve but held in any accepted currencies are you suggesting they leave the deposit in BTC form, or hedge the deposit by purchasing another accepted form of currency?


No I was not offering to hold the forums funds and i am aware of what a reserve ratio is. I was pointing out that people where offering to hold the forums money and to not even keep all of it on hand for a fee
Shit is so sketch

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March 05, 2013, 09:55:14 PM
 #169

Sure I will hold 500 btc in storage with out a full reserve requirement. I think you need 100% reserve but can be held in any accepted currencies in predetermined ratios. 
Were you not offering to hold 500 btc in storage without a full reserve requirement? If not, my apologies for the confusion. It appeared to me as though you were offering to hold 500 btc in storage without a full reserve requirement in response to a thread created to find people to hold btc in storage without a full reserve requirement.
No I was not offering to hold the forums funds and i am aware of what a reserve ratio is. I was pointing out that people where offering to hold the forums money and to not even keep all of it on hand for a fee
Shit is so sketch


No I was not offering to hold the forums funds...
I must not have a firm understanding of the english language. It really did sound to me like you said you would hold 500 btc in storage.

...i am aware of what a reserve ratio is...
I think you need 100% reserve but can be held in any accepted currencies in predetermined ratios.
One cannot simultaneously hold 100% of a unit in reserve AND hedge the desposit by purchasing other currencies. 

I was pointing out that people where offering to hold the forums money and to not even keep all of it on hand for a fee

Ignoring for a moment you yourself suggested FRB with the comment "...can be held in any accepted currencies in predetermined ratios.";

Eleuthria: 100% reserve available, multiple backup encrypted wallet file stored offline, and available for being returned in a short time frame
Ryland R. Taylor-Almanza: I would also have multiple encrypted wallet copies on multiple computers. I would almost always be able to return the BTC within a few hours.
casascius: I would be willing to help with this but would prefer to orchestrate a scheme where I don't have any access to take the money, but rather, have a partial key that I am trusted to release under some certain condition(s).
Narydu:Prefer handling an access as cassasius prompted with a partial key, kept in an offline safe (bank). No charges unless needed.
DeathAndTaxes: I would be willing to hold a partial key. 

Which of those who posted before you made the comment suggested they would not keep the full amount? Again, I could be mistaken, but it appears they all suggested at minimum 100% reserve, and three of them suggested not even having full access to the money at all.

Only one of them suggested how much the service was worth, and suggested BTC1 per month.

Perhaps you should check this site out as well. http://talkworks.wikidot.com/checking-for-clarity

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March 05, 2013, 10:38:57 PM
 #170

personally i thought the multisig was a neat idea but i understand not wanting to use it.

Personally I think you should count the amount of money owened by the forum and have the board pick lets say 10-20 people and divide it evenly among them. They all would have to sign the contract using the address where the money would be stored + another typical address they use/there OTC address.

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March 06, 2013, 05:08:08 AM
 #171

"Exception: 1 trustee or 3 members of the community council may order the treasurer to temporarily stop all payments. After such an order, the treasurer must not obey administrator transaction requests until the order is reversed by those same trustees or community council members, or until the trustees or community council members are removed."

There are 19 council members. If 3 say "stop" but 16 others say "continue", there is an imbalance. Perhaps, a 51% clause here would be better. It would also further guard against collusion amongst a small minority of council members.

BNR §21.06(a) of the Bitcoin Non-Law says: "Deterring Collusion is preferable." 




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March 06, 2013, 05:25:13 AM
 #172

Lots of butthurt in this thread.




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March 06, 2013, 05:44:51 AM
 #173

"Exception: 1 trustee or 3 members of the community council may order the treasurer to temporarily stop all payments. After such an order, the treasurer must not obey administrator transaction requests until the order is reversed by those same trustees or community council members, or until the trustees or community council members are removed."

There are 19 council members. If 3 say "stop" but 16 others say "continue", there is an imbalance. Perhaps, a 51% clause here would be better. It would also further guard against collusion amongst a small minority of council members.

3 council members can't stop payments permanently because I will remove them.

I set it up in this somewhat roundabout way to make it easier for treasurers to determine who they're supposed to take orders from.

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March 06, 2013, 06:10:07 AM
 #174

Lots of butthurt from sublime5447 in this thread.
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March 06, 2013, 06:15:46 AM
 #175

I think they should get paid. They should be given a standard amount to reduce the risk of bailing. Maybe in a escrow or they get a small amount at a time.  They are providing a service right? They should get paid. It doesn't have to be big just something to keep there thoughts at bay.  Tongue

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March 08, 2013, 02:31:18 AM
 #176

I think they should get paid. They should be given a standard amount to reduce the risk of bailing. Maybe in a escrow or they get a small amount at a time.  They are providing a service right? They should get paid. It doesn't have to be big just something to keep there thoughts at bay.  Tongue

If you offer people an incentive to return the funds then it removes some of the temptation and risk, I would say offer 1-2% in Btc that is not optional.

if it was me offering to hold this amount, I would like assurances of peoples multiple back-ups, I would offer send photocopys of my passport etc.



 

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March 09, 2013, 10:58:11 AM
 #177

Here's the first draft of the treasurer contract that I came up with. I'm trying to make a contract without using laws. Therefore, "The Forum" can't exist as a corporate entity and its existence needs to be defined in the contract. We'll see if this sort of structure ends up working well. If it does, maybe other Bitcoin organizations can use it as a model.

What defects does this agreement have?

This includes a list of "community council" members, but note that I didn't actually ask these people if they want to be members yet. I'll do that before this contract is actually used.

Are community council members treasurers?

The agreement is without law? Without law or force? So if a treasurer takes the money... we will ask them nicely to do the right thing?

If this is where you are going with the agreement, just send it out as you wish. If there are no legal responsibilities on either side, why an "agreement" Just tell them what rules they can abide by if they wish, and if they don't want to it's cool.

Sounds a little silly to me.


It's what is known as a written gentleman's agreement - look it up. It's the only known way to establish rules between men without resorting to violence in order to solve disputes, rather those who act in bad faith are simply ostracized, which if the community brings a lot of benefits to the violator, is actually IMO the greatest punishment one can undergo.


I like the agreement. It's clear, concise and exactly how I'd like to see all agreements codified.

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March 09, 2013, 11:21:31 AM
 #178

What's wrong with depositing all the Bitcoins into cold wallets and then keeping the pen-drives in a safe?
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March 10, 2013, 09:55:59 AM
 #179

I am holding too much money for the forum. This is contrary to the forum's otherwise decentralized structure. I'd like to get some extremely trustworthy people to hold smaller chunks of the forum's money (maybe 250-500 BTC per person).

- You probably need to have been active in the Bitcoin community for at least a year.
- You probably need a very high OTC rating.
- You need to have dealt with far more BTC at one time than what you'll be holding for the forum.
- The list of "treasurers" and how much money they're holding will be public.
- The contract will be quite complex (I haven't finished writing it yet), as this is the forum's money, not mine, so you'll have to know what "the forum" is and in exactly which circumstances you can release the money.
- Full reserve is not a requirement, but you will be responsible for returning the money within a few weeks of a legitimate request no matter what.

If you're interested, post here with how much you would charge for this service and what your reserve policy would be.

I suggest you diversify into other, similar assets with alloidial title like gold and silver. 5000 BTC is only going to be about 130 ounces of gold. That is relatively easy to secure physically. You probably don't need to split up the assets among multiple people. But for what it's worth I held over 5k BTC myself when I was running my GLBSE assets. I'm open to any ideas but I probably don't want to hold a large amount of BTC. Being honest it would probably be better if you hired an investment advisor disconnected with the community and pursued an alternative on your own. The only one you can trust is yourself, right?
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March 10, 2013, 01:35:33 PM
 #180

suggest you diversify into other, similar assets with alloidial title like gold and silver

It's called allodial, without the i, and it's a concept of real property, not chattels. Seriously, stop using words, you're doing it wrong.

(For that matter colloidal denotes a substance microscopically dispersed through another substance. I'm making a note of this because it looks like your diffuse mental process consists of mixing and matching everything you hear into a sort of mush, like a parrot does. This is not thinking, btw.)

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