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Author Topic: Looking for people to store some of the forum's money  (Read 34959 times)
JoelKatz
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February 06, 2013, 08:24:53 AM
 #21

If you deposit 1000 BTC you get a[n extremely rare] free MPEx account, whatever gpg you wish to use for it (yours, forum's, w/e). You can either keep it in there (in which case it'll just sit around and wait) or trade on it, in which case your risks are whatever you make them.

Withdrawals are processed within 48 hours (tho usually it's instant if you ping MP).
This is the problem with a non-100% reserve system though. Had someone done something similar with GLBSE or, heaven forbid, Pirate, the forum might not get its money back. This would be an ugly situation for all concerned. The same could apply if someone suffered unexpected large trading losses.

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February 06, 2013, 10:15:16 AM
 #22

I would be willing to do this, just so to strengthen my ratings over here and to show I am serious about the Bitcoin business for Asia side.
If you need a watertight agreement, my lawyer will be willing to do this for a token sum. PM me.

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February 06, 2013, 10:44:04 AM
 #23

This is the problem with a non-100% reserve system though. Had someone done something similar with GLBSE or, heaven forbid, Pirate, the forum might not get its money back. This would be an ugly situation for all concerned. The same could apply if someone suffered unexpected large trading losses.

Always the usual idiot, eh Katz? All MPEx user funds and a lot more atop that is always available for immediate withdrawal, what the hell are you smoking this week?

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February 06, 2013, 01:28:30 PM
 #24

This is the problem with a non-100% reserve system though. Had someone done something similar with GLBSE or, heaven forbid, Pirate, the forum might not get its money back. This would be an ugly situation for all concerned. The same could apply if someone suffered unexpected large trading losses.

Always the usual idiot, eh Katz? All MPEx user funds and a lot more atop that is always available for immediate withdrawal, what the hell are you smoking this week?
You seem to have a serious reading comprehension problem. My point was not about MPEx at all. It was about what would likely happen if people were free to gamble with the Forum's funds, whether they realized they were gambling or not. (Many stories of people trading with other people's money have unhappy endings.)

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February 06, 2013, 01:34:17 PM
 #25

I am holding too much money for the forum. This is contrary to the forum's otherwise decentralized structure. I'd like to get some extremely trustworthy people to hold smaller chunks of the forum's money (maybe 250-500 BTC per person).

- You probably need to have been active in the Bitcoin community for at least a year.
- You probably need a very high OTC rating.
- You need to have dealt with far more BTC at one time than what you'll be holding for the forum.
- The list of "treasurers" and how much money they're holding will be public.
- The contract will be quite complex (I haven't finished writing it yet), as this is the forum's money, not mine, so you'll have to know what "the forum" is and in exactly which circumstances you can release the money.
- Full reserve is not a requirement, but you will be responsible for returning the money within a few weeks of a legitimate request no matter what.

If you're interested, post here with how much you would charge for this service and what your reserve policy would be.

Why do you not simply chose 2-3 persons that you trust 100% ? Also, full reserve should be an absolute requirement.

There must also be multiple encrypted backups, offline and online.

To increase safety, perhaps there should be some sort of two factor.
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February 06, 2013, 01:45:05 PM
 #26

I think you should try for a 100% reserve scheme where the holding addresses are publicly known. Only switch to a different scheme if you can't find enough people willing to help run a 100% reserve system. Using a 2-of-3 or similar key splitting scheme is a good idea too.

This.  I see no reason for it to be done any other way.  While I am sure there are trusted members in the community,  the spirit of Bitcoin is to remove third party trust.

Using an n of m setup and a verifiable holding address provides transparent accountability.  Really there is no reason not to do that.  I think even a 5 of 7 key structure would be workable if the funds are being used more like a savings account than a checking account with small amount held by forum admin for day to day operations. 
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February 06, 2013, 01:48:01 PM
 #27

+1 for this decision.

(But please, do something to get us rid of SMF and pay some hosting provider to have better scalability...)

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February 06, 2013, 01:53:41 PM
 #28

This is the problem with a non-100% reserve system though. Had someone done something similar with GLBSE or, heaven forbid, Pirate, the forum might not get its money back. This would be an ugly situation for all concerned. The same could apply if someone suffered unexpected large trading losses.

Always the usual idiot, eh Katz? All MPEx user funds and a lot more atop that is always available for immediate withdrawal, what the hell are you smoking this week?


I know you two hate each other, but from my interpretation he didn't really suggest that there was a risk inherent in your exchange, only that using the forum's funds for anything other than a strait 100% return puts said funds at risk of a loss.
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February 06, 2013, 02:01:44 PM
 #29

I think you should try for a 100% reserve scheme where the holding addresses are publicly known. Only switch to a different scheme if you can't find enough people willing to help run a 100% reserve system. Using a 2-of-3 or similar key splitting scheme is a good idea too.

This.  I see no reason for it to be done any other way.  While I am sure there are trusted members in the community,  the spirit of Bitcoin is to remove third party trust.

Using an n of m setup and a verifiable holding address provides transparent accountability.  Really there is no reason not to do that.  I think even a 5 of 7 key structure would be workable if the funds are being used more like a savings account than a checking account with small amount held by forum admin for day to day operations.  
I approve this post. No reason not to keep 100% funds available into a public address. Multi factor is also a necessity, we don't need another Bitcoin fiasco that would keep donators away.
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February 06, 2013, 02:03:01 PM
 #30

I also would rather see some (globally distibuted, not US centric...) key holders that need to cooperate rather than having someone charge a monthly fee for printing a paper wallet and keeping it safe (or worse, acting like indeedausername and paying back months after the due date - or worse, acting like pirateat40... Wink ).

Tentatively I might be willing to help, I'd need to see the contract and more details first though. Also I probably don't meet all requirements (I don't like + don't have a WOT rating and I "only" had ~100 BTC at one point of time).

If funds were to be held in fiat instead of BTC, I could store this sum in EUR on my savings account (and my payment would be the meager interest on that) - but I guess that might be out of the question...?

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February 06, 2013, 02:03:32 PM
 #31

I think you should try for a 100% reserve scheme where the holding addresses are publicly known. Only switch to a different scheme if you can't find enough people willing to help run a 100% reserve system. Using a 2-of-3 or similar key splitting scheme is a good idea too.

This.  I see no reason for it to be done any other way.  While I am sure there are trusted members in the community,  the spirit of Bitcoin is to remove third party trust.

Using an n of m setup and a verifiable holding address provides transparent accountability.  Really there is no reason not to do that.  I think even a 5 of 7 key structure would be workable if the funds are being used more like a savings account than a checking account with small amount held by forum admin for day to day operations.  
I approve this post. No reason not to have 100% funds available into a public address. Multi factor is also a necessity, we don't need another Bitcoin fiasco that would keep donators away.

+1 billion
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February 06, 2013, 02:47:15 PM
 #32

I would be willing to help with this but would prefer to orchestrate a scheme where I don't have any access to take the money, but rather, have a partial key that I am trusted to release under some certain condition(s).  The ideal scheme allows one or more of the participants to disappear without impacting access to the funds.

Why not do a 2-of-3 scheme where you, someone like me, and one other person has a keypart, and two people need to cooperate in order to release the funds.  I have an escrow utility that does that now, it's based on EC multiplication.  Any similar facility such as in Armory would be equally acceptable (especially if interested in m-of-n where m,n != 2,3).

I would not charge a fee, unless charging a fee were an essential element to make it kosher, in which case it would be 1 BTC/year.
+1. I can do so for the same, and prefer the partial key solution. I'm a regular escrow holder too.
My reserve policy would be a cold wallet stored at a safe and a bank, with the Bitcoins never moving from the address, if the 2-of-3 scheme is too clunky to materialize.

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February 06, 2013, 04:44:19 PM
 #33

This is the problem with a non-100% reserve system though. Had someone done something similar with GLBSE or, heaven forbid, Pirate, the forum might not get its money back. This would be an ugly situation for all concerned. The same could apply if someone suffered unexpected large trading losses.

Always the usual idiot, eh Katz? All MPEx user funds and a lot more atop that is always available for immediate withdrawal, what the hell are you smoking this week?


I know you two hate each other, but from my interpretation he didn't really suggest that there was a risk inherent in your exchange, only that using the forum's funds for anything other than a strait 100% return puts said funds at risk of a loss.

Well if that's the case, my apologies.

It did (and still does) read to me that he's implying it, but maybe I have something stuck on my glasses.

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February 06, 2013, 04:58:31 PM
 #34

I'd be willing to hold BTC in cold storage (full reserve) for 0.2% per month (so, for 250 BTC, 0.5 BTC per month).

I've handled fairly large amounts here and elsewhere (over 300 BTC through raffles, over 1000 BTC through Fennec, a few hundred through IRC ventures and did a 100+ BTC escrow for usagi before).

I haven't been active for quite a year, but my OTC rating (ignoring the spam ratings by Coolio) is around 80 and I am active in the community.

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February 06, 2013, 05:20:37 PM
 #35

I would be willing to hold 1,000 BTC for a 1% fee (1% additional fee per year).
Fees go to 2% if less than 1,000 BTC.
I would like a new forum title. Treasurer perhaps.
Funds would be available within 24 hours (unless I'm on vacation).
Funds would never be touched until withdrawn.
Wallet would be backed up on a flash drive placed in a fireproof safe.

My receiving address has nearly 15,000 BTC received all from legitimate dealings. I've held tens of thousands of dollars in deposits previously and have a flawless OTC rating as well as nothing but positive forum feedback.

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February 06, 2013, 05:21:47 PM
 #36

I hate to be the only one asking, why can't be the money invested into better hardware/software? There are daily outages!

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February 06, 2013, 05:35:30 PM
 #37

Willing and able to help.
reasonable otc-rating (bitcoinsinberlin), running a reasonably successful BTC company (bitcoincommodities).
holding a couple 100 BTC safe (two-factor brainwallet? paper wallet in safety deposit box?) should not be a problem for me.
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February 06, 2013, 06:45:29 PM
 #38

Multisig is a good idea. Maybe 2-of-3 with me and 2 treasurers per group, each group holding 1000 BTC. But multisig transactions are non-standard IIRC, and I'm not confident in the security of multiplying EC points (has this method been recommended by any standards?).

I would be more than happy to help theymos.

I'm not really sure how much a service like this is worth, but 1 BTC/month sounds fine to me. Full reserve.

I would be willing to help with this

I could help! No problem with handling in my personal information. I'm trusted local trader. Prefer handling an access as cassasius prompted with a partial key, kept in an offline safe (bank). No charges unless needed.

I would be willing to hold a partial key.  Honestly I think this is almost a textbook perfect example of where either on protocol multi-sig or off protocol key sharing should be used. 

Write me down for the same exact thing.

I am willing to hold a partial key.

+1. I can do so for the same, and prefer the partial key solution.

I'd be willing to hold BTC in cold storage (full reserve) for 0.2% per month (so, for 250 BTC, 0.5 BTC per month).

I would be willing to hold 1,000 BTC for a 1% fee (1% additional fee per year).
Fees go to 2% if less than 1,000 BTC.
I would like a new forum title. Treasurer perhaps.
Funds would be available within 24 hours (unless I'm on vacation).

Willing and able to help.
reasonable otc-rating (bitcoinsinberlin), running a reasonably successful BTC company (bitcoincommodities).
holding a couple 100 BTC safe (two-factor brainwallet? paper wallet in safety deposit box?) should not be a problem for me.


Thanks. I'll add you all to my list and pick the best candidates once I've finished figuring out the details.

Sure I will hold 500 btc in storage with out a full reserve requirement. I think you need 100% reserve but can be held in any accepted currencies in predetermined ratios. 

I would be willing to do this, just so to strengthen my ratings over here and to show I am serious about the Bitcoin business for Asia side.
If you need a watertight agreement, my lawyer will be willing to do this for a token sum. PM me.

I don't know you well enough.

If you deposit 1000 BTC you get a[n extremely rare] free MPEx account, whatever gpg you wish to use for it (yours, forum's, w/e). You can either keep it in there (in which case it'll just sit around and wait) or trade on it, in which case your risks are whatever you make them.

Withdrawals are processed within 48 hours (tho usually it's instant if you ping MP).

Thanks, but I'm not confident in the security/stability of MPEx. Also, I don't want to have direct control of the funds.

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February 06, 2013, 06:48:44 PM
 #39

I hate to be the only one asking, why can't be the money invested into better hardware/software? There are daily outages!

The current server is behind MtGox's DDoS protection (I think). And I don't have to deal with the hosting arrangements when MtGox provides the server. So I'm not eager to move somewhere else.

Also, the current server seems fairly powerful. It don't know why it's so slow. I feel like it's a configuration problem somewhere.

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February 06, 2013, 06:58:33 PM
 #40

This sounds like a highdea.

Why are you uncomfortable holding the coins yourself? Huh

Keep it simple not spread too many keys, then you'll never get the money when you need it.

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