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Author Topic: Looking for people to store some of the forum's money  (Read 34972 times)
starsoccer9
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February 06, 2013, 11:41:02 PM
 #61

I could probally hold some for you. I have been here for almost a year now, and I also have over 100 on the OTC.

If/when you check the otc i do have a few fake negitives from shill accounts

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February 06, 2013, 11:46:57 PM
 #62

Why not just spend it on its intended purpose?
How would you wisely and not frivolously spend 5000 BTC on "Donated funds will be used mostly to pay for development of the forum software."? That could buy the highest license for every forum software out there for decades, and you'd still not have the ideal forum.

For that price the intended customizations could be payed for as well, including the possibility of something from scratch.

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February 06, 2013, 11:55:02 PM
 #63

This plan will end in tears.
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February 07, 2013, 12:23:19 AM
 #64

I am holding too much money for the forum. This is contrary to the forum's otherwise decentralized structure. I'd like to get some extremely trustworthy people to hold smaller chunks of the forum's money (maybe 250-500 BTC per person).
Actually this is a very interesting question. This might set future model for bitcoin security banks. Banks not in the sense of an enterprise taking deposits and giving loans for profit but banks for distributed cooperative security where there is no single point of failure. Of course 100% reserve requirement is a must!
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February 07, 2013, 12:25:32 AM
 #65

Really, I am the one looking scammy. I dont want the coins, others have been drooling over the idea. I dont care. Why wouldnt he want to lend the coins out to the people who donated the coin in the first place. Why wouldnt he want to make money off the fund not lose it to you crooks. Trying to charge fees to hold the peoples donated money and i am the crook.

You're probably the guy who posted the more in that thread and you really, really don't fit the profile theymos is looking for. What are you looking to gain here?

Nothing I am not in this for me. I just want the money used properly not given to people who happen to have coins under their name. The money should be used for the improvement of the community. I was thinking of donating, but not if that is where it is going to friends the forum host. If I donate it is to grow the community not to line the pockets of an insiders club.  

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payb.tc
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February 07, 2013, 12:30:20 AM
 #66

probably late to the party, but happy to help, theymos.

i don't think you need to settle for any less than 100% public reserve, with no fees.

it doesn't cost anything to keep coins offline.
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February 07, 2013, 12:44:20 AM
 #67

i don't think you need to settle for any less than 100% public reserve, with no fees.

This absolutely no reason to take the risk with anything less.  multi-key escrow, trusted  keyholders, no fees, 100% public accounting.
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February 07, 2013, 01:44:36 AM
 #68

Why not just spend it on its intended purpose?
How would you wisely and not frivolously spend 5000 BTC on "Donated funds will be used mostly to pay for development of the forum software."? That could buy the highest license for every forum software out there for decades, and you'd still not have the ideal forum.

For that price the intended customizations could be payed for as well, including the possibility of something from scratch.
This is what I'm saying. That is a massive amount of money for a customized forum software. Bets on this having something to do with tax season?

Me? I'm just the cynical voice floating in the sea of unchecked optimism.
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February 07, 2013, 02:08:25 AM
 #69

$100,000 on forum software are you guys insane?

What an asinine waste of money.  Sure the forum needs better software, maybe a dedicated server, possibly better database backend etc.  Hopefully SOME of the funds will be used for that in an intelligent and planned fashion over the coming year (not yeah we are rich lets buy a bunch of random expensive crap).  Still you can't possible think this forum needs $100,000 in hardware and software upgrades.  So regardless there is some portion of those funds which the forum couldn't possibly use this year and probably would be based to store securely for the long run.  theymos said something about cold storage of ~2,000 BTC.  Not lock up every penny and never spend anything to improve anything. 

I mean how can that seem like a bad idea to you?
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February 07, 2013, 02:12:49 AM
 #70

$100,000 on forum software are you guys insane?

What an asinine waste of money.  Sure the forum needs better software, maybe a dedicated server, possibly better database backend etc.  Hopefully SOME of the funds will be used for that in an intelligent and planned fashion over the coming year (not yeah we are rich lets buy a bunch of random expensive crap).  Still you can't possible think this forum needs $100,000 in hardware and software upgrades.  So regardless there is some portion of those funds which the forum couldn't possibly use this year and probably would be based to store securely for the long run.  theymos said something about cold storage of ~2,000 BTC.  Not lock up every penny and never spend anything to improve anything.  

I mean how can that seem like a bad idea to you?

Maybe getting something like Osiris done is worth all the money, or even pay for it's source code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_(Serverless_Portal_System)

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February 07, 2013, 02:41:27 AM
 #71

I'm willing to hold it, with 100% reserve in cold storage, free of charge (I am hoping I would get improved reputation and more trust out of this). I've been around for quite a while, held that amount for Bitcoin100 with no problems, and like to think I'm fairly trusted. I would store it in my Armory cold storage wallet (offline signature transactions, so zero chance of hacks), and would prefer to make the address public so that others can see there's nothing funny happening with the money, as well as that any requests to send it back are verifiable. I would also prefer to have an address that a paper backup in a sealed envelope can be automatically sent to should anything happen to me.

P.S. I also have a few thousand BTC in my personal accounts, so I've "dealt with far more BTC at one time than what I'll be holding for the forum."

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February 07, 2013, 02:57:45 AM
 #72

I am holding too much money for the forum. This is contrary to the forum's otherwise decentralized structure. I'd like to get some extremely trustworthy people to hold smaller chunks of the forum's money (maybe 250-500 BTC per person).
Actually this is a very interesting question. This might set future model for bitcoin security banks. Banks not in the sense of an enterprise taking deposits and giving loans for profit but banks for distributed cooperative security where there is no single point of failure. Of course 100% reserve requirement is a must!

OK, your avatar has to go. I tried to squish the bug. Seriously.

Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
BlackLilac Jordan
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February 07, 2013, 03:18:59 AM
 #73

Give the money back to the donors at 1% they can sell the coins at 4% and make money it would give the forum liquidity and a easy source of fiat to spend on the site. Loans could be called back in at anytime if unexpected expenses arise. It would be completely decentralized and the members who donated could pledge the coins to be owned by the forum. The donaters could make money off the coins they hold for the forum and the forum could grow the pool of coins and cash. If the people who donated the coins get them back they are just holding coins that were theirs to begin with. If they pledge the coins to the forum and then wont return them as funds are needed then they could be blocked from the forum. This is a good idea just needs some refinement. I want to know what the big guy thinks? theymos what do you think?     

No, it isn't. It's nonsense no one is interested in, and is totally off topic.

Go beg in the lending forum or something.
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February 07, 2013, 03:33:39 AM
 #74

I am holding too much money for the forum. This is contrary to the forum's otherwise decentralized structure. I'd like to get some extremely trustworthy people to hold smaller chunks of the forum's money (maybe 250-500 BTC per person).
Actually this is a very interesting question. This might set future model for bitcoin security banks. Banks not in the sense of an enterprise taking deposits and giving loans for profit but banks for distributed cooperative security where there is no single point of failure. Of course 100% reserve requirement is a must!

OK, your avatar has to go. I tried to squish the bug. Seriously.

a few days ago i had an ant running around on my monitor at work. i didn't brush it off it because i assumed it was just someone's GIF. seriously.
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February 07, 2013, 06:16:37 AM
 #75

it doesn't cost anything to keep coins offline.
I'm sorry but this is nonsense.

Let's forget about multisig for a second. Storing coins always has a risk of loss and theft. For all offline computer and paper wallets suggestions, physical burglaries exist too and it won't be long until we have Bitcoin-minded burglars. If the offline wallet is further protected with a password, this password is either memorized and can be forgotten (or forced out), or it's written down and can again be stolen. There can also be a sophisticated virus, or simply human error, in the generation process.

(Myself I'm worried that the iso I would download to install Ubuntu on a fresh computer would be corrupted and actually install a compromised OS that intercepts Armory and instead of generating random keys generates keys known to the attacker. I have no idea if that's actually possible, but merely my subjective uncertainty about this possibility means I am taking a risk by holding coins. And those are just the risks I thought of - what about all the risks I didn't?)

The trustee would still be liable for the coins even if they're lost. This means he could easily find himself with a $5K debt he may not be in a good position to repay (and even if he can do it, he still loses $5K). It's very reasonable to require a risk premium for this insurance. Of course, it's also reasonable to take it free of charge as a contribution to the forum.

i don't think you need to settle for any less than 100% public reserve, with no fees.
This absolutely no reason to take the risk with anything less.
Why do you think keeping the money with trustees is risky, and keeping it with theymos is not? Utmost respect to theymos, but he could embezzle or lose the funds too and I'm sure there are other people just as reliable.

Let's assume 1%/year chance of a problem. If theymos holds everything there is 1%/year risk of losing all of the forum's money. If it's split with another trusted person, there's 2%/year risk of losing half the money and virtually no risk of losing everything. That's much better because the forum will always have enough funds to do the really important things. It's still better even if some fee has to be paid. In fact the difference is even more pronounced, since the more money concentrated at one place, the greater the incentive to embezzle and the attractiveness for attackers.


Thankfully, multisig solves most of that and allows a solution with minimal risk for everyone.

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February 07, 2013, 02:35:26 PM
 #76

This absolutely no reason to take the risk with anything less.
Why do you think keeping the money with trustees is risky, and keeping it with theymos is not? Utmost respect to theymos, but he could embezzle or lose the funds too and I'm sure there are other people just as reliable.

I think you misunderstood.  I believe the funds SHOULD be decentralized I just think there are more than enough people that there is no need to take a risk of <100% reserve, give anyone direct control of the funds, or payout excessive holding fees.

100% reserve in publicly verifiable address.
n of m multisig.
No dubious fee structures (plenty of trusted entities willing to do it to help the forum)*

* Sorry I am all for charging a fair wage but some of the proposals top out at 3% a year.  $3,000 a year just to keep one private key of an n of m multisig address safe?  Of course if theymos wants to payout fees well I got no problem with it. Decentralized and paying fees is better than centralized and $100K disappears if theymos gets hit by a bus.
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February 07, 2013, 03:05:46 PM
 #77

This absolutely no reason to take the risk with anything less.
Why do you think keeping the money with trustees is risky, and keeping it with theymos is not? Utmost respect to theymos, but he could embezzle or lose the funds too and I'm sure there are other people just as reliable.

I think you misunderstood.  I believe the funds SHOULD be decentralized I just think there are more than enough people that there is no need to take a risk of <100% reserve, give anyone direct control of the funds, or payout excessive holding fees.

100% reserve in publicly verifiable address.
n of m multisig.
No dubious fee structures (plenty of trusted entities willing to do it to help the forum)*

* Sorry I am all for charging a fair wage but some of the proposals top out at 3% a year.  $3,000 a year just to keep one private key of an n of m multisig address safe?  Of course if theymos wants to payout fees well I got no problem with it. Decentralized and paying fees is better than centralized and $100K disappears if theymos gets hit by a bus.
That I agree with, I guess I misinterpreted the scope of your comment in that specific context.

With m-of-n personal liability is greatly alleviated and thus this can easily be done with no fees. (We could make it so that if someone loses a key but the funds are still safe, he pays a small fine; and if enough keys are lost/stolen to compromise the funds, those who were negligent must together pay up the amount).

If there was no multisig and I had no desire to help the forum and take part in something cool, 3%/year is probably about what I'd charge. Losing those funds would highly correlate with losing my own stash, and in this case I'd be liable and have greatly reduced convenience (not impossibility though) of repayment.

Speaking of which, even with multisig we should be aware of correlated risks. We'd want the different trustees to use as different procedures of generation and storage as possible.

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February 07, 2013, 03:19:56 PM
 #78

This absolutely no reason to take the risk with anything less.
Why do you think keeping the money with trustees is risky, and keeping it with theymos is not? Utmost respect to theymos, but he could embezzle or lose the funds too and I'm sure there are other people just as reliable.

I think you misunderstood.  I believe the funds SHOULD be decentralized I just think there are more than enough people that there is no need to take a risk of <100% reserve, give anyone direct control of the funds, or payout excessive holding fees.

100% reserve in publicly verifiable address.
n of m multisig.
No dubious fee structures (plenty of trusted entities willing to do it to help the forum)*

* Sorry I am all for charging a fair wage but some of the proposals top out at 3% a year.  $3,000 a year just to keep one private key of an n of m multisig address safe?  Of course if theymos wants to payout fees well I got no problem with it. Decentralized and paying fees is better than centralized and $100K disappears if theymos gets hit by a bus.


To be honest, 3% of 500 is abt. $300 dollars. Plus, he gets a new netbook and provisions made in case of an untimely demise with an option of an USD escrow account.

That is completely fair and reasonable. IMO But meh...

He could have just asked a trusted person 'off the record' and gone around the public post.

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February 07, 2013, 03:21:56 PM
 #79

There are of course plenty of people that are both invested in the success of Bitcoin as well as those that simply believe in what Bitcoin stands for that will do this for free. Theymos has a list of willing candidates and their terms. Is anyone suggesting that with such a list, that Theymos is not a smart enough person to review the offers and pick someone that would hold them for free, have public accountability of the coins, and is well known both with their avatar and in real life over someone who wants to charge a fee and wants to play SD with the forums money? Come on. If you think he would choose the latter, maybe you should start your own Bitcoin forum because if you don't trust him with that you should absolutely have a suspicion that he is reading your private messages and reporting your IP address to three letter government agencies for being a threat.

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February 07, 2013, 03:53:05 PM
 #80

There are of course plenty of people that are both invested in the success of Bitcoin as well as those that simply believe in what Bitcoin stands for that will do this for free. Theymos has a list of willing candidates and their terms. Is anyone suggesting that with such a list, that Theymos is not a smart enough person to review the offers and pick someone that would hold them for free, have public accountability of the coins, and is well known both with their avatar and in real life over someone who wants to charge a fee and wants to play SD with the forums money? Come on. If you think he would choose the latter, maybe you should start your own Bitcoin forum because if you don't trust him with that you should absolutely have a suspicion that he is reading your private messages and reporting your IP address to three letter government agencies for being a threat.

I see lots of things for 'free' but bitcoin managing isn't one of them. There are risks even in FREE, and taking provisions for those risks are NOT FREE. So who shall pay?  I already donated so I've shown my support. Now, you want free?

I'm not really looking for this, he posted. I didn't request. I provided an option, he might not like it. So, don't take it.

TBH, it's a headache of responsibility that I normally wouldn't care to hold for a length of time. I assume, he has the same headache and is trying to spread the pain. I offered my aspirin but FREE would be a migraine.

Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
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