BFL ready to ship?

[cedivad]

I believe when I see it...

There, you can see it. Josh tweeted a pictures of the packaged chips a few minutes ago (source: https://twitter.com/ButterflyLabs/status/310549500311789570 )

Pics of chips != ready to ship

[mrb]

Pics of chips != ready to ship

You initially replied to "chips should be getting shipped off to the packager Saturday".
And they have been shipped to the packager, because the picture shows packaged chips.

[-ck]

I like this picture, where is it come from?

迷い猫オーバーラン!

[Cablez]

Cost aside, wouldn't that cause further delay? They could inspect them during the built process. If a unit requires 8 chips, plug in 7 that look okay and 1 (?). This way two issues could be solved with one (insert noun, but not stone).

It's a reliability problem.  Thermal cycling of the chips will cause the underfill to delaminate at the void sites and break solder joints.  So you put it all together and everything looks sweet, then a month or 2 down the road the chip goes completely flakely on you and eventually fails completely.
The only way to know what is going on is to inspect some of the die using CSAM.  It's a non-destructive process and can be done with a sample of packages so it's not the end of the world.  Unless they are all full of voids...

I really don't think Josh is as aware of these types of situations as you are. Why don't you shoot them a quick message so he gets the idea. It would be fun to see him screaming at the packagers.

[greyhawk]

Good god

[Inspector 2211]

Guys, relax.
There won't be much thermal cycling as a typical miner will be on 100% of the time.
Unlike a typical PC which is turned on once a day and turned off once a day.

[ChipGeek]

So many BFl cheerleaders in here. Or PL haters lol...either way i'm too here to expose BFL for their bullshit.

Join my Posse.

[Image removed...]

I just don't know what the Posse is about yet. Perhaps you should start selling PL merchandise? Make a whole franchise out of it.

I might be more popular than the Pope. Well, ex-pope.

Thanks PL.  I can finally read the can you're drinking from.  It says "Avalon Kool-Aid". 

Now, where did I put my can of BFL Kool-Aid? 

[meowmeowbrowncow]

Guys, relax.
There won't be much thermal cycling as a typical miner will be on 100% of the time.
Unlike a typical PC which is turned on once a day and turned off once a day.

It won't take much either.  Just the normal day to night swings will do it.  I have seen 100s of thousands of underfilled chips over 10 process generations, many with underfill defects, and none of them looked as bad as these.

The black blotch shown on greyhawk's zoom is a scrap part.  That is underfill, it will prevent proper cooling and is impossible to sand off without cracking the brittle silicon.

*sighs* If things could get any worse.

[thebaron]

Now, to figure out if this is a purposeful defect to delay things even more...

[Entropy-uc]

Cost aside, wouldn't that cause further delay? They could inspect them during the built process. If a unit requires 8 chips, plug in 7 that look okay and 1 (?). This way two issues could be solved with one (insert noun, but not stone).

It's a reliability problem.  Thermal cycling of the chips will cause the underfill to delaminate at the void sites and break solder joints.  So you put it all together and everything looks sweet, then a month or 2 down the road the chip goes completely flakely on you and eventually fails completely.
The only way to know what is going on is to inspect some of the die using CSAM.  It's a non-destructive process and can be done with a sample of packages so it's not the end of the world.  Unless they are all full of voids...

I really don't think Josh is as aware of these types of situations as you are. Why don't you shoot them a quick message so he gets the idea. It would be fun to see him screaming at the packagers.

Josh has a long history of not speaking to me in a civil manner.  And my company pays me ~$1000/day to work on these kinds of problems.  Why would I consult for free for a company I consider to behave in a completely unethical manner?

For the record, here is what I said about BFL 10 months ago:

I do have one question... What is exactly the point you are trying to make?

Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

Thanks for asking.  I have a few simple points.

About BFL
1.  You are pre-announcing this product before delivering your previously pre-announced product
2.  This is your second claim of delivering a product with ASIC hashing.  Your first was debunked as an FPGA as soon as product shipped.
3.  You seem to be using customer funds for purchases of product for development and general expenses.  If I am wrong about that please post a notarized statement from your escrow agent and I will apologize.

About business in general
1.  Paying in advance for development is an investment.  It is generally compensated with intellectual property, equity or loan interest.
2. Honest, viable businesses become insolvent all the time for lack of cashflow.  It is the reason for the Chapter 11 bankruptcy procedures.
3. Payments in advance for products become unsecured debts in a bankruptcy proceeding.  Unsecured debtors are among the lowest priority for recovery in these procedures and generally get nothing.  Even if the material is sitting in the shipping bay with a label on it, it isn't yours under bankruptcy.
4.  For reason #3 above it is unethical, and a violation of consumer protection laws in many places to sell product in advance of availability.  For the same reason, Visa and Mastercard require shipment before a sale can be charged.
5. Companies at risk of insolvency often make very generous guarantee offers.  A guarantee has no revenue cost in the present, and has no value in bankruptcy either.

I can't see ever being a customer of yours given your business practices.  And your question has given me the opportunity to  nicely summarize why people should use caution.  So I will leave your thread to your fans and investors.

[RHA]

It won't take much either.  Just the normal day to night swings will do it.  I have seen 100s of thousands of underfilled chips over 10 process generations, many with underfill defects, and none of them looked as bad as these.
The black blotch shown on greyhawk's zoom is a scrap part.  That is underfill, it will prevent proper cooling and is impossible to sand off without cracking the brittle silicon.

Entropy, take it easy. This black blotch, if made of underfill, will prevent ideal cooling. When using with thermal paste or pads, the cooling will be proper enough.
I can't say nothing about the voids, you are the professional, but the day-night temperature changes should be compensated by variable speed of the fan, keeping the board temperature quite stable.

Enigma pointed to strange looking soldering points, but:
- they surely use mostly the edge pins of the chip (because of quick QFN to FCBGA conversion), leaving  most of the middle pins unused;
- Enigma used a photo of a board which was put through the oven without chips, not the one just prepared to place them;
- the photo was blurry and unfocused, so Enigma's conclusions are plain guesswork.

[philips]

Are you guys sure this black spec is on the chip itself? Looks to me like something on the ceiling reflected on the chip....

[Eveofwar]

Are you guys sure this black spec is on the chip itself? Looks to me like something on the ceiling reflected on the chip....

Maybe it's an overhead fire sprinkler ?  Those look like ceiling panels and the spinkler is in the center of the panel.  Next to the overhead lightning panel.

[greyhawk]

Are you guys sure this black spec is on the chip itself? Looks to me like something on the ceiling reflected on the chip....

That was my reasoning which is why I did not arrow it.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Are you guys sure this black spec is on the chip itself? Looks to me like something on the ceiling reflected on the chip....

That was my reasoning which is why I did not arrow it.

I recognized it as a nano-sprinkler straight away. Genius!

[RHA]

Are you guys sure this black spec is on the chip itself? Looks to me like something on the ceiling reflected on the chip....

I'd thought the same, so I wrote "if made of". I think Entropy is strongly biased against BFL. His warnings would be good if someone could correct something because of them. Else, it's spreading of FUD.

We have to wait and see. All pre-ordering was a kind of betting and the result is still not certain.

[Entropy-uc]

Are you guys sure this black spec is on the chip itself? Looks to me like something on the ceiling reflected on the chip....

Good eye.  I think you might be right.

[philips]

I recognized it as a nano-sprinkler straight away. Genius!

Sprinkler you say? Good, ´cos Entropy got me worried for a second. After all he is a specialist payed with 1000$/day to spot this kind of problems.

[Entropy-uc]

I recognized it as a nano-sprinkler straight away. Genius!

Sprinkler you say? Good, ´cos Entropy got me worried for a second. After all he is a specialist payed with 1000$/day to spot this kind of problems.

Yes, because that completely invalidates the garbage underfill job, and the chipped dies that Greyhawk pointed out.

Keep dreaming my friend.

[Cablez]

Yes, because that completely invalidates the garbage underfill job, and the chipped dies that Greyhawk pointed out.

I do not think the dies are chipped, it looks more like the underfill is incomplete to the edge in places.