BFL ready to ship?

[Beta-coiner1]

I just saw this at the BFL forums....

Bumping is done and chips should be getting shipped off to the packager Saturday.

[cedivad]

I believe when I see it...

[smoothie]

Yes, get your hopes up.

I love entertainment.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I just saw this at the BFL forums....

Bumping is done and chips should be getting shipped off to the packager Saturday.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/1176-february-28th-update-discussion-3.html

Sorry to be devil's advocate here, but do you really think that once the chips work, even supposing that's the case without any more mishaps (a tall order in itself) - that they just pack 'em up in a black box and the boxes get shipped? more tests needed after they are placed, a prototype product has to be built and tested, a nd final products need to be assembled and tested. Do you really believe that final products will be sent a week after chip testing ends? that's not the way hardware development works, fellows. It makes me sad and doubtful about BFL's credibility, or whatever's left of it after so many failed promises, that they make such projections on shipping time - and that people buy them.

Forgot to mention the time it takes to place on the following labels:



If I'm not mistaken, two of the boxes that Kano photographed has the required labels in them.

When is the Jalapeno getting FCC approval?

Maybe two weeks? We are waiting for the test lab to issue the test report.

With the bump in power requirements on the MR and the new screen, we had to make changes, although the new screen is already certified.  We are doing all the devices at once, since they all share the same board.

[cdog]

Ready to ship? LOL, no. Maybe reading to start assembling and testing a prototype.

Cliff notes: will ship by April-May, MAYBE, if everything goes according to plan.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Ready to ship? LOL, no. Maybe reading to start assembling and testing a prototype.

Cliff notes: will ship by April-May, MAYBE, if everything goes according to plan.

Dollar to donuts, Jody will pen a post about working 24/7 through Good Friday and Easter.

[cdog]

Oh yeah, everyone is working 15 hour days obviously. There is NO slacking off at all going on at BFL. Everything is just peachy and they will ship ANY DAY NOW.

[Bogart]

I just saw this at the BFL forums....

Bumping is done and chips should be getting shipped off to the packager Saturday.

Maybe you're confusing the packaging of finished miners with the packaging of the chip dies inside FCBGA chip packages, which is what's being done now.

There are still a lot of steps before they can ship a finished product.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I just saw this at the BFL forums....

Bumping is done and chips should be getting shipped off to the packager Saturday.

Maybe you're confusing the packaging of finished miners with the packaging of the chip dies inside FCBGA chip packages, which is what's being done now.

There are still a lot of steps before they can ship a finished product.

<humor>

There are still a lot of missteps before they can ship a finished product.

<laugh>

[PuertoLibre]

They took 1 of the 6 wafers from the bumping facility to wire it up for testing.  
Q: Why?
A: They did this because bumping was taking awhile and they wanted to be able to give the fab the go ahead to put the final layers on the other 6 wafers in waiting.
Q: What happened?
A: They say the test went fine, everything is okay.
Q: So did they tell the fab to finish putting the final layers on the 6 wafers in waiting?
A: No...
Q: Why?
A:  They said they're going to wait to do final testing of the first 5 wafers leaving the bumping facility going onto packaging before initiating the final layer production at the fab.

What does this tell you?
Either they're idiots and just threw away 1/6th of their first run for no reason or... something didn't go as they had planned with the wire bond testing.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/1221-there-problems-asic-chips-2.html#post17173

No, everything is going just fine.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/1221-there-problems-asic-chips.html#post17170

The growing sentiments are frightening.

[Andrey]

Everybody worship BFL, they have clear terms of pre-order!

http://products.butterflylabs.com/featured-products/60gh-bitcoin-miner.html


Oh, shit. Its already March 2013. But I think Inaba can easily fix this issue by using some insults here and there.

[smoothie]

Everybody worship BFL, they have clear terms of pre-order!

http://products.butterflylabs.com/featured-products/60gh-bitcoin-miner.html


Oh, shit. Its already March 2013. But I think Inaba can easily fix this issue by using some insults here and there.

Looks like "schedule" changed. BFL fan boys read to give in to the fact that BFL is full of BS? 

[DobZombie]

I got some bets going on this

I recon Difficulty will hit 6,500,000+ before a BFL ASIC product hits costomers.
BFL will Deliver ASIC before bitcoin difficulty reaches 6,500,000

I recon BFL will deliver before the network reaches 50TH.
The BTC Mining hashrate will reach 50TH before BFL deliver an ASIC


They're both nearly too close to call I bet

[Andrey]

Looks like "schedule" changed. BFL fan boys read to give in to the fact that BFL is full of BS? 

As you can see their schedule is solid, it does not change. If a man of word said "February" then neigher March nor other month can make him take his words back.

[ChipGeek]

Looks like "schedule" changed. BFL fan boys read to give in to the fact that BFL is full of BS? 

As you can see their schedule is solid, it does not change. If a man of word said "February" then neigher March nor other month can make him take his words back.

All of you clearly don't understand ship dates.  I believe the BFL products will ship by February 47, 2013 or maybe Feb 52 at the latest. 

[creativex]

Looks like "schedule" changed. BFL fan boys read to give in to the fact that BFL is full of BS? 

As you can see their schedule is solid, it does not change. If a man of word said "February" then neigher March nor other month can make him take his words back.

All of you clearly don't understand ship dates.  I believe the BFL products will ship by February 47, 2013 or maybe Feb 52 at the latest. 

That's what you said about the 7th week of December dude! I call BS.

[MrTeal]

I got some bets going on this

I recon Difficulty will hit 6,500,000+ before a BFL ASIC product hits costomers.
BFL will Deliver ASIC before bitcoin difficulty reaches 6,500,000

I recon BFL will deliver before the network reaches 50TH.
The BTC Mining hashrate will reach 50TH before BFL deliver an ASIC


They're both nearly too close to call I bet

The first one is valid, but the second one is a terrible bet as there's no way of knowing what the actual network hashrate is. It's using an estimate for hashrate and it's absolutely possible that even with a real 40TH/s on the network that you will get 50TH/s for the estimated hashate. The way it's worded you could have a steady average of 40TH/s for a month but a peak to 50TH/s would satisfy it to the affirmative.

[PuertoLibre]

Is this true or is this bull?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX75tiViEjA

Did bitcoin ever experience a crash?

[MrTeal]

Is this true or is this bull?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX75tiViEjA

Did bitcoin ever experience a crash?

No, that was when a hacker broke into Mt Gox and brought the market down to $0.01. Those fake trades were rolled back. The market did crash from it's bubble high to a couple dollars but nothing like that.

[tcp_rst]

Is this true or is this bull?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX75tiViEjA

Did bitcoin ever experience a crash?

No, that was when a hacker broke into Mt Gox and brought the market down to $0.01. Those fake trades were rolled back. The market did crash from it's bubble high to a couple dollars but nothing like that.

and your question is ridiculously off-topic.

[Clearfly]

Is this true or is this bull?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX75tiViEjA

Did bitcoin ever experience a crash?

Bullshit fearmongering. Sounds like he's trying to drive the price down. The hack video is a fake.

Sure anything that goes up must come down and vice versa.

Don't forget the last crash was after a big hack on MtGox, and right after a huge pump and dump by speculators. A double wammy scared a lot of people out.
BTC is a volatile market, doesn't take a lot to move the price up or down.

[Tamerz]

Forgot to mention the time it takes to place on the following labels:

My BFL FPGA doesn't have anything like that. As far as I know, it won't need that if it is using a pre-made power supply.

[greyhawk]

Did bitcoin ever experience a crash?

You mean besides right now?

[ralree]

The chips are being packaged as we speak. I don't know if I'll have an update on whether or not that's completed tonight, but I should have an update sometime in the morning/early afternoon tomorrow at the latest. If I get an update today, I will, of course, post it. But the packaging house did confirm they have the chips and are packaging them today.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/1219-march-4th-update-discussion-9.html#post17301

[crazyates]

Is this true or is this bull?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX75tiViEjA
Did bitcoin ever experience a crash?

No, that was when a hacker broke into Mt Gox and brought the market down to $0.01. Those fake trades were rolled back. The market did crash from it's bubble high to a couple dollars but nothing like that.

and your question is ridiculously off-topic.

ROFL The first 20 seconds clued me in for what kind of video I was in for, and it didn't disappoint.

The chips are being packaged as we speak. I don't know if I'll have an update on whether or not that's completed tonight, but I should have an update sometime in the morning/early afternoon tomorrow at the latest. If I get an update today, I will, of course, post it. But the packaging house did confirm they have the chips and are packaging them today.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/1219-march-4th-update-discussion-9.html#post17301

Thanks for the update.

[DrG]

it seems bfl could need a month or more if all goes well, why do they keep guessing wrong on their time table?

To piss me off.

[HorseRider]

Every other ASIC developer needs more than 1.5 month after they tested the chips before the shipping/deploying meaningful amount of equipment, just check the history of Avalon and ASICMINER.

[-ck]

it seems bfl could need a month or more if all goes well, why do they keep guessing wrong on their time table?

I wouldn't say "guessing". It's great marketing getting people to pay for something in advance where getting it first counts so much, even if it's not likely to be available for another 6 months after you claim.

[Nemesis]

it seems bfl could need a month or more if all goes well, why do they keep guessing wrong on their time table?

To piss me off.

i keep winning bets.. first one i won was with p4man back in 2011 lol...

i wonder where that kid ended up...

That kid is alot richer than you now Goat . Too bad your scamming didnt work out for you.

P4man=puppet

[creativex]

it seems bfl could need a month or more if all goes well, why do they keep guessing wrong on their time table?

I wouldn't say "guessing". It's great marketing getting people to pay for something in advance where getting it first counts so much, even if it's not likely to be available for another 6 months after you claim.

pretty dishonest:(

It's also illegal in the US where BFL is located.

[Dalkore]

it seems bfl could need a month or more if all goes well, why do they keep guessing wrong on their time table?

I wouldn't say "guessing". It's great marketing getting people to pay for something in advance where getting it first counts so much, even if it's not likely to be available for another 6 months after you claim.

Yes, we know who did that move.   Such BS.

[PuertoLibre]

Update:

Josh stated in the shoutbox that if the chips overclocked well and consistently that they would use less chips per board.

That'd be awful .  The least we deserve as pre-order customers who've waited the better part of a year is a possible overclock.  Also, this would put Jalepeno customers at an advantage, as it is just one chip.  I wonder if BFL would actually use chip-sized spacers and short the pre-order customers of Singles, Mingles, and Mini-Rigs?   I could understand doing this on later non pre-order sales when HSFs and specs can be redesigned and finalized, but for pre-order customers that paid last June for an order that should have shipped in October?  I really hope this isn't the case.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/1221-there-problems-asic-chips-3.html#post17536

Possible short changing of customers in the near future.

Let BFL know ( office@butterflylabs.com ) how you feel about such "a drastic" option. As this would reduce your overclocking potential in the long run and reduce the long term value...it is bad news bears.

[Cablez]

That would be bogus if they went that route.  Wait and see I guess.

[tcp_rst]

Update:

Josh stated in the shoutbox that if the chips overclocked well and consistently that they would use less chips per board.

That'd be awful .  The least we deserve as pre-order customers who've waited the better part of a year is a possible overclock.  Also, this would put Jalepeno customers at an advantage, as it is just one chip.  I wonder if BFL would actually use chip-sized spacers and short the pre-order customers of Singles, Mingles, and Mini-Rigs?   I could understand doing this on later non pre-order sales when HSFs and specs can be redesigned and finalized, but for pre-order customers that paid last June for an order that should have shipped in October?  I really hope this isn't the case.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/1221-there-problems-asic-chips-3.html#post17536

Possible short changing of customers in the near future.

Let BFL know ( office@butterflylabs.com ) how you feel about such "a drastic" option. As this would reduce your overclocking potential in the long run and reduce the long term value...it is bad news bears.

Nice.  Quoting third-hand information without any context to goad people into spamming a company for which you've shown complete disdain.  You're a real class act, PL.

[PuertoLibre]

TCP RST, you can look it up.

It is at about 3/7/2013 at 11 o'clock.

Look through the shouts archive. You'll see the statements refereed to there.

---------------------

As for your comments, I don't really care what you think. Truth hurts I guess.

[Miner99er]

We better get what we ordered... I don't give two flying fucks if the jalapeno Can overclock to 10 TH/s... there's should be 4 chips in a Mini SC, 8 in a Single SC, and 25 Single SC's filling the Box-o-Fans they have.

[smoothie]

This is where BFL's promises start to get diluted as they keep delaying on and on and on.

For those of you who ordered in the summer, I honestly think you're being taken for a retarded ride. If you dont cancel your preorder, you are asking to get taken advantaged of.

Bitcoin price and difficulty are creeping up.

Your initial investment is now costing you about 8 times more than you would have had to pay if you just held your bitcoins or used fiat to buy and hold BTC.

I guess this isnt bitcoin with retards and drama. 

[Cablez]

TCP RST, you can look it up.

It is at about 3/7/2013 at 11 o'clock.

Look through the shouts archive. You'll see the statements refereed to there.

---------------------

As for your comments, I don't really care what you think. Truth hurts I guess.

How do you go about seeing the shouts archive?

[PuertoLibre]

It actually took me a while to figure it out when PG mentioned it one time.

You can find it by going through this link:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/vbshout.php?do=archive&instanceid=1

Or you can click the link at the top of the chatbox that says "BFL Chat", you will see a little menu that shows "archive".

[Cablez]

k thanks.

[johnyj]

What I'm interested now is that 28nm helveticoin asic offer

Now we know that avalon can basically follow their schedule with almost no delay, that is respectable speed. If they managed to quickly push the 28nm product out in same timeframe (4 month), BFL will have a hard time. If I understand it correct, there will be at least 3 vendor building those ASIC machines and put at least 1000 TH on network by summer/autumn

[Dalkore]

What I'm interested now is that 28nm helveticoin asic offer

Now we know that avalon can basically follow their schedule with almost no delay, that is respectable speed. If they managed to quickly push the 28nm product out in same timeframe (4 month), BFL will have a hard time. If I understand it correct, there will be at least 3 vendor building those ASIC machines and put at least 1000 TH on network by summer/autumn

28nm helveticoin asic offer

Tell me more?

[Cablez]

Here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=146371.0

[tcp_rst]

TCP RST, you can look it up.

It is at about 3/7/2013 at 11 o'clock.

Look through the shouts archive. You'll see the statements refereed to there.

---------------------

As for your comments, I don't really care what you think. Truth hurts I guess.

Yes, obviously you don't care since you took the time to respond [/sarcasm]
Never said he didn't say it, but it was an offhand comment in the middle of intensive chat about gaming consoles which you conveniently ignore.  I'm not a BFL defender, I'm a PuertoLibre criticizer. You're just here to be a dick and get attention-that's the problem I have.  There are a lot here like you, I know, but you're just the most annoying and obvious in the threads that interest me.

[PuertoLibre]

TCP RST, you can look it up.

It is at about 3/7/2013 at 11 o'clock.

Look through the shouts archive. You'll see the statements refereed to there.

---------------------

As for your comments, I don't really care what you think. Truth hurts I guess.

Yes, obviously you don't care since you took the time to respond [/sarcasm]

Gotta put new found BFL defenders in their place.

Never said he didn't say it,

You strongly implied it, yes.

Now that you have confirmed it for yourself, you are "enlightened" as to that situation.

but it was an offhand comment in the middle of intensive chat about gaming consoles which you conveniently ignore.

Irrelevant and immaterial to the matter at hand.

I'm not a BFL defender, I'm a PuertoLibre criticizer.

A puddle of Crap by any other name still remains crap.

You're just here to be a dick and get attention-that's the problem I have.  There are a lot here like you, I know, but you're just the most annoying and obvious in the threads that interest me.

I am blushing.

Use the ignore button when facing inconvenient truths. I want people to tell me if it can turn purple or not.

You seem to be turning into a BFL defender. If that is so, I don't really care. But if you start behaving irrationally for that cause, I'll just have to point it out just like any other circumstance.

If knowing about BFL possibly cutting chips is an "offense", then whenever you see my name, yell at the top of your lungs and kick in your screen.

Repeat as frequently as necessary.

Edit: In fact, do this if you ever see Mr. Teal or Grnbrg doing the same (reporting on new information). I know the facts and "breaking news" does tend bother some. I know ignorance of a situation is bliss...I suppose.

[BootyCall]

TCP RST, you can look it up.

It is at about 3/7/2013 at 11 o'clock.

Look through the shouts archive. You'll see the statements refereed to there.

---------------------

As for your comments, I don't really care what you think. Truth hurts I guess.

Yes, obviously you don't care since you took the time to respond [/sarcasm]
Never said he didn't say it, but it was an offhand comment in the middle of intensive chat about gaming consoles which you conveniently ignore.  I'm not a BFL defender, I'm a PuertoLibre criticizer. You're just here to be a dick and get attention-that's the problem I have.  There are a lot here like you, I know, but you're just the most annoying and obvious in the threads that interest me.

Its true Puerto. I'm a BFL-hater and even I think you're just being a dick.  A quite obviously insecure one at that.

[smoothie]

So many BFl cheerleaders in here. Or PL haters lol...either way i'm too here to expose BFL for their bullshit.

[PuertoLibre]

TCP RST, you can look it up.

It is at about 3/7/2013 at 11 o'clock.

Look through the shouts archive. You'll see the statements refereed to there.

---------------------

As for your comments, I don't really care what you think. Truth hurts I guess.

Yes, obviously you don't care since you took the time to respond [/sarcasm]
Never said he didn't say it, but it was an offhand comment in the middle of intensive chat about gaming consoles which you conveniently ignore.  I'm not a BFL defender, I'm a PuertoLibre criticizer. You're just here to be a dick and get attention-that's the problem I have.  There are a lot here like you, I know, but you're just the most annoying and obvious in the threads that interest me.

Its true Puerto. I'm a BFL-hater and even I think you're just being a dick.  A quite obviously insecure one at that.

I think I am honored. Though I will have to check with my therapist to make sure if I am or am not honored?

[PuertoLibre]

So many BFl cheerleaders in here. Or PL haters lol...either way i'm too here to expose BFL for their bullshit.

Join my Posse.



I just don't know what the Posse is about yet. Perhaps you should start selling PL merchandise? Make a whole franchise out of it.

I might be more popular than the Pope. Well, ex-pope.

[mrb]

I believe when I see it...

There, you can see it. Josh tweeted a pictures of the packaged chips a few minutes ago (source: https://twitter.com/ButterflyLabs/status/310549500311789570 )

[BootyCall]

Its true Puerto. I'm a BFL-hater and even I think you're just being a dick.  A quite obviously insecure one at that.

I think I am honored. Though I will have to check with my therapist to make sure if I am or am not honored?

Actually I really couldn't care less about BFL.  Chaps like you are a professional fascination to me so I poke just to see what happens.  You and your "posse" carry on.

[johnyj]

I like this picture, where is it come from?

[1l1l11ll1l]

The do exist....





http://ow.ly/i/1EM8o

[Entropy-uc]

I believe when I see it...

There, you can see it. Josh tweeted a pictures of the packaged chips a few minutes ago (source: https://twitter.com/ButterflyLabs/status/310549500311789570 )

Zoom up on the full sized image and look at the edge of each die.  That is the ugliest underfill job I have ever seen on chips.  They are going to have nasty voiding on the C4 bumps and rel problems out the wazoo.

[crazyates]

I believe when I see it...

There, you can see it. Josh tweeted a pictures of the packaged chips a few minutes ago (source: https://twitter.com/ButterflyLabs/status/310549500311789570 )

[img ]http://static.ow.ly/photos/normal/1EM8o.jpg[/img]

Zoom up on the full sized image and look at the edge of each die.  That is the ugliest underfill job I have ever seen on chips.  They are going to have nasty voiding on the C4 bumps and rel problems out the wazoo.

Can you really tell that from a straight up shot of a blurry pic, or are you just trolling?

[Entropy-uc]

I believe when I see it...

There, you can see it. Josh tweeted a pictures of the packaged chips a few minutes ago (source: https://twitter.com/ButterflyLabs/status/310549500311789570 )

[img ]http://static.ow.ly/photos/normal/1EM8o.jpg[/img]

Zoom up on the full sized image and look at the edge of each die.  That is the ugliest underfill job I have ever seen on chips.  They are going to have nasty voiding on the C4 bumps and rel problems out the wazoo.

Can you really tell that from a straight up shot of a blurry pic, or are you just trolling?

I would also like to know this.

Yes, I can really tell.  A properly underfilled chip will have a smooth line where it was dispensed on one side, and an equally smooth line on the other side where the epoxy flowed through. The clumping and discontinuities in the images make it likely there are voids.  To be certain you would have to inspect the die with CSAM.  The epoxy should develop a clean curve up the sidewall of the die as well - this shows good adhesion to the silicon, and ensures that the epoxy doesn't interfere with the heat sink mounting.

It's really ugly. If I was in Josh's shoes I'd be screaming mad, checking every chip to make sure the underfill isn't higher than the die back side, and demanding CSAM inspections from the assembly house to prove the packages are free of voids.

[MrTeal]

High res if you want to see what he's talking about.
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/dbtgallery.php?do=view_image&id=658&gal=gallery

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I believe when I see it...

There, you can see it. Josh tweeted a pictures of the packaged chips a few minutes ago (source: https://twitter.com/ButterflyLabs/status/310549500311789570 )

[img ]http://static.ow.ly/photos/normal/1EM8o.jpg[/img]

Zoom up on the full sized image and look at the edge of each die.  That is the ugliest underfill job I have ever seen on chips.  They are going to have nasty voiding on the C4 bumps and rel problems out the wazoo.

Can you really tell that from a straight up shot of a blurry pic, or are you just trolling?

I would also like to know this.

Yes, I can really tell.  A properly underfilled chip will have a smooth line where it was dispensed on one side, and an equally smooth line on the other side where the epoxy flowed through. The clumping and discontinuities in the images make it likely there are voids.  To be certain you would have to inspect the die with CSAM.  The epoxy should develop a clean curve up the sidewall of the die as well - this shows good adhesion to the silicon, and ensures that the epoxy doesn't interfere with the heat sink mounting.

It's really ugly. If I was in Josh's shoes I'd be screaming mad, checking every chip to make sure the underfill isn't higher than the die back side, and demanding CSAM inspections from the assembly house to prove the packages are free of voids.

Cost aside, wouldn't that cause further delay? They could inspect them during the built process. If a unit requires 8 chips, plug in 7 that look okay and 1 (?). This way two issues could be solved with one (insert noun, but not stone).

[Entropy-uc]

Cost aside, wouldn't that cause further delay? They could inspect them during the built process. If a unit requires 8 chips, plug in 7 that look okay and 1 (?). This way two issues could be solved with one (insert noun, but not stone).

It's a reliability problem.  Thermal cycling of the chips will cause the underfill to delaminate at the void sites and break solder joints.  So you put it all together and everything looks sweet, then a month or 2 down the road the chip goes completely flakely on you and eventually fails completely.

The only way to know what is going on is to inspect some of the die using CSAM.  It's a non-destructive process and can be done with a sample of packages so it's not the end of the world.  Unless they are all full of voids...

[PuertoLibre]

I like this picture, where is it come from?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHyN8PizZVY

[cedivad]

I believe when I see it...

There, you can see it. Josh tweeted a pictures of the packaged chips a few minutes ago (source: https://twitter.com/ButterflyLabs/status/310549500311789570 )

Pics of chips != ready to ship

[mrb]

Pics of chips != ready to ship

You initially replied to "chips should be getting shipped off to the packager Saturday".
And they have been shipped to the packager, because the picture shows packaged chips.

[-ck]

I like this picture, where is it come from?

迷い猫オーバーラン!

[Cablez]

Cost aside, wouldn't that cause further delay? They could inspect them during the built process. If a unit requires 8 chips, plug in 7 that look okay and 1 (?). This way two issues could be solved with one (insert noun, but not stone).

It's a reliability problem.  Thermal cycling of the chips will cause the underfill to delaminate at the void sites and break solder joints.  So you put it all together and everything looks sweet, then a month or 2 down the road the chip goes completely flakely on you and eventually fails completely.
The only way to know what is going on is to inspect some of the die using CSAM.  It's a non-destructive process and can be done with a sample of packages so it's not the end of the world.  Unless they are all full of voids...

I really don't think Josh is as aware of these types of situations as you are. Why don't you shoot them a quick message so he gets the idea. It would be fun to see him screaming at the packagers.

[greyhawk]

Good god

[Inspector 2211]

Guys, relax.
There won't be much thermal cycling as a typical miner will be on 100% of the time.
Unlike a typical PC which is turned on once a day and turned off once a day.

[ChipGeek]

So many BFl cheerleaders in here. Or PL haters lol...either way i'm too here to expose BFL for their bullshit.

Join my Posse.

[Image removed...]

I just don't know what the Posse is about yet. Perhaps you should start selling PL merchandise? Make a whole franchise out of it.

I might be more popular than the Pope. Well, ex-pope.

Thanks PL.  I can finally read the can you're drinking from.  It says "Avalon Kool-Aid". 

Now, where did I put my can of BFL Kool-Aid? 

[meowmeowbrowncow]

Guys, relax.
There won't be much thermal cycling as a typical miner will be on 100% of the time.
Unlike a typical PC which is turned on once a day and turned off once a day.

It won't take much either.  Just the normal day to night swings will do it.  I have seen 100s of thousands of underfilled chips over 10 process generations, many with underfill defects, and none of them looked as bad as these.

The black blotch shown on greyhawk's zoom is a scrap part.  That is underfill, it will prevent proper cooling and is impossible to sand off without cracking the brittle silicon.

*sighs* If things could get any worse.

[thebaron]

Now, to figure out if this is a purposeful defect to delay things even more...

[Entropy-uc]

Cost aside, wouldn't that cause further delay? They could inspect them during the built process. If a unit requires 8 chips, plug in 7 that look okay and 1 (?). This way two issues could be solved with one (insert noun, but not stone).

It's a reliability problem.  Thermal cycling of the chips will cause the underfill to delaminate at the void sites and break solder joints.  So you put it all together and everything looks sweet, then a month or 2 down the road the chip goes completely flakely on you and eventually fails completely.
The only way to know what is going on is to inspect some of the die using CSAM.  It's a non-destructive process and can be done with a sample of packages so it's not the end of the world.  Unless they are all full of voids...

I really don't think Josh is as aware of these types of situations as you are. Why don't you shoot them a quick message so he gets the idea. It would be fun to see him screaming at the packagers.

Josh has a long history of not speaking to me in a civil manner.  And my company pays me ~$1000/day to work on these kinds of problems.  Why would I consult for free for a company I consider to behave in a completely unethical manner?

For the record, here is what I said about BFL 10 months ago:

I do have one question... What is exactly the point you are trying to make?

Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

Thanks for asking.  I have a few simple points.

About BFL
1.  You are pre-announcing this product before delivering your previously pre-announced product
2.  This is your second claim of delivering a product with ASIC hashing.  Your first was debunked as an FPGA as soon as product shipped.
3.  You seem to be using customer funds for purchases of product for development and general expenses.  If I am wrong about that please post a notarized statement from your escrow agent and I will apologize.

About business in general
1.  Paying in advance for development is an investment.  It is generally compensated with intellectual property, equity or loan interest.
2. Honest, viable businesses become insolvent all the time for lack of cashflow.  It is the reason for the Chapter 11 bankruptcy procedures.
3. Payments in advance for products become unsecured debts in a bankruptcy proceeding.  Unsecured debtors are among the lowest priority for recovery in these procedures and generally get nothing.  Even if the material is sitting in the shipping bay with a label on it, it isn't yours under bankruptcy.
4.  For reason #3 above it is unethical, and a violation of consumer protection laws in many places to sell product in advance of availability.  For the same reason, Visa and Mastercard require shipment before a sale can be charged.
5. Companies at risk of insolvency often make very generous guarantee offers.  A guarantee has no revenue cost in the present, and has no value in bankruptcy either.

I can't see ever being a customer of yours given your business practices.  And your question has given me the opportunity to  nicely summarize why people should use caution.  So I will leave your thread to your fans and investors.

[RHA]

It won't take much either.  Just the normal day to night swings will do it.  I have seen 100s of thousands of underfilled chips over 10 process generations, many with underfill defects, and none of them looked as bad as these.
The black blotch shown on greyhawk's zoom is a scrap part.  That is underfill, it will prevent proper cooling and is impossible to sand off without cracking the brittle silicon.

Entropy, take it easy. This black blotch, if made of underfill, will prevent ideal cooling. When using with thermal paste or pads, the cooling will be proper enough.
I can't say nothing about the voids, you are the professional, but the day-night temperature changes should be compensated by variable speed of the fan, keeping the board temperature quite stable.

Enigma pointed to strange looking soldering points, but:
- they surely use mostly the edge pins of the chip (because of quick QFN to FCBGA conversion), leaving  most of the middle pins unused;
- Enigma used a photo of a board which was put through the oven without chips, not the one just prepared to place them;
- the photo was blurry and unfocused, so Enigma's conclusions are plain guesswork.

[philips]

Are you guys sure this black spec is on the chip itself? Looks to me like something on the ceiling reflected on the chip....

[Eveofwar]

Are you guys sure this black spec is on the chip itself? Looks to me like something on the ceiling reflected on the chip....

Maybe it's an overhead fire sprinkler ?  Those look like ceiling panels and the spinkler is in the center of the panel.  Next to the overhead lightning panel.

[greyhawk]

Are you guys sure this black spec is on the chip itself? Looks to me like something on the ceiling reflected on the chip....

That was my reasoning which is why I did not arrow it.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Are you guys sure this black spec is on the chip itself? Looks to me like something on the ceiling reflected on the chip....

That was my reasoning which is why I did not arrow it.

I recognized it as a nano-sprinkler straight away. Genius!

[RHA]

Are you guys sure this black spec is on the chip itself? Looks to me like something on the ceiling reflected on the chip....

I'd thought the same, so I wrote "if made of". I think Entropy is strongly biased against BFL. His warnings would be good if someone could correct something because of them. Else, it's spreading of FUD.

We have to wait and see. All pre-ordering was a kind of betting and the result is still not certain.

[Entropy-uc]

Are you guys sure this black spec is on the chip itself? Looks to me like something on the ceiling reflected on the chip....

Good eye.  I think you might be right.

[philips]

I recognized it as a nano-sprinkler straight away. Genius!

Sprinkler you say? Good, ´cos Entropy got me worried for a second. After all he is a specialist payed with 1000$/day to spot this kind of problems.

[Entropy-uc]

I recognized it as a nano-sprinkler straight away. Genius!

Sprinkler you say? Good, ´cos Entropy got me worried for a second. After all he is a specialist payed with 1000$/day to spot this kind of problems.

Yes, because that completely invalidates the garbage underfill job, and the chipped dies that Greyhawk pointed out.

Keep dreaming my friend.

[Cablez]

Yes, because that completely invalidates the garbage underfill job, and the chipped dies that Greyhawk pointed out.

I do not think the dies are chipped, it looks more like the underfill is incomplete to the edge in places.

[dropt]

After all he is a specialist payed with 1000$/day to spot this kind of problems.

I can't comment on the validity of his statements, but ~1000/day isn't unheard of.

[Bogart]

Guys, relax.
There won't be much thermal cycling as a typical miner will be on 100% of the time.
Unlike a typical PC which is turned on once a day and turned off once a day.

It won't take much either.  Just the normal day to night swings will do it.  I have seen 100s of thousands of underfilled chips over 10 process generations, many with underfill defects, and none of them looked as bad as these.

The black blotch shown on greyhawk's zoom is a scrap part.  That is underfill, it will prevent proper cooling and is impossible to sand off without cracking the brittle silicon.

Even a few seconds of downtime will cause a huge thermal swing in such a chip.  Imagine a pool server that's overloaded, or a flaky internnet connection.

Here are some temperature graphs from a couple of my GPU miners.  The first one has a better internet connection than the second.

[johnyj]

I like this picture, where is it come from?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHyN8PizZVY

So much fun!! I will watch the whole serie 

[mobodick]

Good god

What, they didn't apply the glue that holds the metal caps in place evenly?
 

[greyhawk]

It's apparently a rush job on the underfill. If it looks like that on the edges I don't even want to know how many voids will be underneath those things.

Of course according to Josh those are JPG artifacts, nothing to worry about, everything's fine in Butterfly Land.

If only he knew how JPG artifacts look like.

(Hint: Nothing like this. I can tell by the pixels and having seen quite some artifacts in my time)

I'm joking of course, though not about the underfill and Josh's limited understanding of image compression.

[ChipGeek]

What, they didn't apply the glue that holds the metal caps in place evenly?
 

In these FCBGA packages there are no metal caps.  The shiny square you see is the back of the actual silicon chip itself.  Since these are quickly assembled prototypes, I would not weigh any possible defects in the underfill too heavily. 

Yes it is true that poor underfill will cause long term reliability problems in the production parts.  What you see photos of here are not the production parts - just test units from the first production run.  In other words, I'm guessing these are likely units they made while they were refining the underfill process.

[ChipGeek]

Enigma pointed to strange looking soldering points, but:
- they surely use mostly the edge pins of the chip (because of quick QFN to FCBGA conversion), leaving  most of the middle pins unused;
- Enigma used a photo of a board which was put through the oven without chips, not the one just prepared to place them;
- the photo was blurry and unfocused, so Enigma's conclusions are plain guesswork.

I have a comment for each of your 3 points.

1) This is simply wrong.  When converting from QFN to FCBGA, the upper layer of metal on the silicon is changed to a miniature version of the BGA package.  Proof of this is the photos of the wire bonding test die.  The attachment points are (now) in an array, not along the edge.  Note that the die can have typically more or sometimes less connections than the final BGA package.  The BGA package is simply a very tiny multi-layer PCB that translates the chip balls/bumps to the package ball grid on the bottom.

2) True as far as I can tell.

3) Guesswork?  Maybe.  Maybe not.

I will add that putting vias in the middle of the BGA pads can be problematic.  But I know of assembly houses that can effectively and properly deal with this.  Another option is to get the blank boards with filled vias.  (Not something that the PCBs in the photos have.)  We recently had to do this on a project I'm working on.

[SgtSpike]

Good god

What, they didn't apply the glue that holds the metal caps in place evenly?
 

That's what I was thinking... it's just uneven glue (or epoxy, or whatever it's called in this case).  If you look at edges other than the top, you can see similar unevenness, but it's clear that it is because of the glue.  The left side of the bottom left chip in this zoom is an excellent example.

[Miner99er]

For reference...

http://imgur.com/sicFhlY

not very even at all, but better than the BFL chips... and those chips aren't clocking as high as this Athlon did.

Conclusion: We're going to have to wait and see.

[RHA]

- they surely use mostly the edge pins of the chip (because of quick QFN to FCBGA conversion), leaving  most of the middle pins unused;

1) This is simply wrong.  When converting from QFN to FCBGA, the upper layer of metal on the silicon is changed to a miniature version of the BGA package.  Proof of this is the photos of the wire bonding test die.  The attachment points are (now) in an array, not along the edge.  Note that the die can have typically more or sometimes less connections than the final BGA package.  The BGA package is simply a very tiny multi-layer PCB that translates the chip balls/bumps to the package ball grid on the bottom.

I wrote this just because of where the wires went on the photo of test die. Mostly the edge pins, most of the middle pins were left unused, so I concluded they have done it to avoid big changes of their PCB (miner's one, not BGA's one).
But I agree - it could be because of difficulty of wiring the middle pins.