[POLL] Should Butterfly Labs (BFL) get a Scammer tag?

[noedaRDH]

I thought BFL begun shipping like a week ago or something?

[becoin]

I thought BFL begun shipping like a week ago or something?

If you come across something with "lab" in its name, RUN! 99.99% of investors in ScamflyLabs will never get their money back!

[Sk1llS]

Not sure what happened to my post, not sure if I actually posted it 

I said the admins won't slap the scammer tag on BFL and Inaba because they won't bite the hand that feeds them. BFL pay for advertising:

Code:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206304.msg2228269#msg2228269

Code:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=214520.msg2257451#msg2257451

[Xian01]

Not sure what happened to my post, not sure if I actually posted it 
I said the admins won't slap the scammer tag on BFL and Inaba because they won't bite the hand that feeds them. BFL pay for advertising:

Code:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206304.msg2228269#msg2228269

Code:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=214520.msg2257451#msg2257451

This is damning of Theymos

More interested in the money than he is in altruism.

[Korbman]

Not sure what happened to my post, not sure if I actually posted it 
I said the admins won't slap the scammer tag on BFL and Inaba because they won't bite the hand that feeds them. BFL pay for advertising:

Code:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206304.msg2228269#msg2228269

Code:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=214520.msg2257451#msg2257451

This is damning of Theymos

More interested in the money than he is in altruism.

Not in the least..

Anyone can put up an advertisement, regardless of who they are, what they've done, or what they're accused of doing.

[Fiyasko]

Not sure what happened to my post, not sure if I actually posted it 
I said the admins won't slap the scammer tag on BFL and Inaba because they won't bite the hand that feeds them. BFL pay for advertising:

Code:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206304.msg2228269#msg2228269

Code:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=214520.msg2257451#msg2257451

This is damning of Theymos

More interested in the money than he is in altruism.

Not in the least..

Anyone can put up an advertisement, regardless of who they are, what they've done, or what they're accused of doing.

But its a false advertisement and false advertising is illegal!

[Humax]

SCAM!

and my eyes hurts watching those scammers ad here!
Paid with the money of their scam!

But wait.....they will ship after many years from now when the difficulty is too high to mine with those. Claiming they were never scammers!!!

[vandan]

I made the following post last July in which I indicated it made NO SENSE how BFL could make power/speed claims on ASICs without actually developed them.

I have just one question: How can you know that your ASICS/rigs you are touting/preordering going to have as much hashing power as you claim on your website unless you have already created the ASICs and benchmarked them.

This question I need answered.

To claim a rig will have a hash rate and not be able to actually sell (more importantly, demonstrate its hashing capabilities), says that you likely don't have the technology at all. Otherwise why not just keep the hardware secret and mine happily for the rest of bitcoinity and make tons more profit?

 

Well said

[meowmeowbrowncow]

One of the interesting things said by the investigators out of the *Rex Rogers / lotto fraud case is that:


These guys were good.  They were careful not to make any definite claims.



Kind of the same thing with BFL.  You say you have something soon�™  Make obscure references to designs/tests/timelines.  Nothing definitive.  Have the nerve to invoke Abraham Lincoln. 

(By the way - the heat testing claim in November 2012 was likely with heat elements and not actual ASIC chips on a board.)

I'm not sure if this is completely intentional on BFL's part, but it makes one think very hard about what BFL's game is.



*Rex Rogers being Sonny @ BFL's father.

[Frizz23]

I'm not sure if this is completely intentional on BFL's part, but it makes one think very hard about what BFL's game is.

My theory for their incredible amount of dilettantism is this: There's no pressure on BFL, because they already have our money.
They have enough venture capital and pre order money for another six months(?). Another year(?). Who knows. I assume Josh & Sonny grant themselves a princely salary (say $800,000 per year) because they are such high potentials  .

Once this money is gone, and/or no more new money comes in, because even hillbillies understood that difficulty made BFLs devices unprofitable, BFL is history.

Once BFL goes belly up, prosecutors can't find anything unlawful, because BFL tried as best as they could to bring ASICS to the market. Oh noes, who could have know that they fuck up each and every step? It was just another startup that failed, right? ...

And a nice addition from user "dropt": "You forgot the part where they sell a copy of the mask to a newly formed tech company for pennies on the dollar in efforts to balance the books and stave off bankruptcy.  As BFL implodes, said newly founded tech company starts a massive solo mining asic farm."

[ISAWHIM]

Isn't there a LAW in the USA, that says something to this effect...

"Venture capital must be held in a certified federal withholding bank, with limited access, available for all venture investors to view."

"Working funds must be loaned, based of holdings of venture capital. Without using the venture capital holdings."

"You must clearly state, 'venture', 'investment', 'loan', when soliciting funds that are 'not used to pay directly for physical goods'."

Since they are stating it is an "order"/"purchase", which IMPLIES it is a produced good... But also "mention", that it is a pre-order, but do not state the "holdings" of the pre-order funds... and Have not made "held funds" available to be "monitored" by the "investors/venturists/lenders"...

That makes it fraud.

Even if they have every intention of, "following through". I could rob a bank, with the "intention" of giving it back... It is the robbery that is the crime. The intention is irrelevant.

They claimed to have a solution...
They claimed to have sources...
They claimed to have ability...
They claimed to be open...
They claimed MANY "expected delivery readiness" dates...

They actually had nothing more than the same idea we all had. Yet they falsely led people to believe (lied), that they were ONLY missing "Capital"... Then began taking our capital, using those blatant lies. And remain taking capital, even though they STILL, a year later, have not delivered more than 0.01% of anything promised. While they continue to say, "we are working on it"... but "it" was delivered??? Does it assemble itself once they "finish working on it", after it has arrived in your hands?

30 were sent-out to "reviewers"... And the reviews... Are... posted... where... (Not even on the BFL forums.)

They post in the forums... then tell you the real news in in the blogs... then the blogs lead you to other forums, or back to the BFL forum... and NOTHING is up to date. (That is called misleading you, misdirection, diversion, running you in circles, keeping you occupied, feeding you BS.)

When you SPEND the VENTURED CAPITAL, and use INCOMING VENTURE CAPITAL to PAY SPENT REFUNDS... That is called a "pyramid scam". Even if you DO deliver a few items, which is still less than 0.01% of the orders. (That is also the sign that it is a scam.)

They are a business... then... show me the legal paperwork of collected funds, and FDIC insured bank-account where these "untouched" funds are being held... and the "loan you got", based on our holdings. Since that is the "legal" method for a legal business. (Oh, yea.. they are not legal, and they didn't do that. Yet they freely accepted USD, which requires them to follow "US currency laws.")

[Cablez]

Oh noes, who could have know that they fuck up each and every step? It was just another startup that failed, right? ...

This is part that boggles my mind.  Even with substandard engineers and the cheapest/unskillful production facilities you shouldn't have to do each step 4 or more times. What kind of troglodytes are working at all these places that a relatively straightforward device cannot be produced in 6 months, really?

[Fiyasko]

Oh noes, who could have know that they fuck up each and every step? It was just another startup that failed, right? ...

This is part that boggles my mind.  Even with substandard engineers and the cheapest/unskillful production facilities you shouldn't have to do each step 4 or more times. What kind of troglodytes are working at all these places that a relatively straightforward device cannot be produced in 6 months, really?

As "ISAWHIM" put it quite clearly:

-Snip-
Even if they have every intention of, "following through". I could rob a bank, with the "intention" of giving it back... It is the robbery that is the crime. The intention is irrelevant.

They claimed to have a solution...
They claimed to have sources...
They claimed to have ability...
They claimed to be open...
They claimed MANY "expected delivery readiness" dates...

They actually had nothing more than the same idea we all had. Yet they falsely led people to believe (lied), that they were ONLY missing "Capital"... Then began taking our capital, using those blatant lies. And remain taking capital, even though they STILL, a year later, have not delivered more than 0.01% of anything promised. While they continue to say, "we are working on it"...
-Snip-

My thought is this, They hired people to do thier job/idea for them with our funds, while they sitback and ask their Minimum Wage employees "how is it coming" and they say "Uhh sir we fucked up again, Your specifications are quite impossible" "Try again" "Sir we fucked up again, Your slightly reduced specifications are still impossible" "TRY AGAIN" "Sir your fucking up, These specifications are Not possible" while BFL kicks back and gives themselves a FAT paycheck of our money whenever the fuck they feel like it.

I strongly believe that they do not have a highly qualified professional "TechGuy" at BFL, I think they have nearly experianceless assembly line workers working minimum wage.

[creativex]

The thing I cannot get past is simply that they claim to have VC funds to pay for development, yet they continue to take 100% payment for pre-ordered products that don't exist, raise the price on these non-existent products, and continue to buy ad space. All this despite having a backlog of orders going back nearly one year.

If development is paid for out of VC funding then pre-order customers(investors) are merely a liability. They plainly do not like having investors as evidenced by their animosity toward these investors. Account management, book keeping, and general CS costs real money...so why do it if you don't need the money? It makes no sense from a business standpoint.

[Fiyasko]

The thing I cannot get past is simply that they claim to have VC funds to pay for development, yet they continue to take 100% payment for pre-ordered products that don't exist, raise the price on these non-existent products, and continue to buy ad space. All this despite having a backlog of orders going back nearly one year.

If development is paid for out of VC funding then pre-order customers(investors) are merely a liability. They plainly do not like having investors as evidenced by their animosity toward these investors. Account management, book keeping, and general CS costs real money...so why do it if you don't need the money? It makes no sense from a business standpoint.

Yeah, It just screams "we are almost out of money"
Seriously think of the cost of all those chips/wafers/boards/heatsinks/fans/cases and those Stupid Useless BFL boxes that get put inside a standard shipping box, WHATS THE FUCKING POINT? DO THEY PLAN TO PUT THESE ON A SHELF IN A RETAIL STORE? OR IS IT A BIG DICKWAVING TO GRAB MORE PREORDERS!

Pretty damn sure that BFL is close to running out of money I doubt they even have enough materials to fill HALF the orders that they have, So they are scrambling to grab more money rather than go "we cannot construct the unit that you already payed for because we spent your money ineffeciently, We require addintion funds", at wich point, Everyone will pull thier orders if able to, Throwing BFL into another MASSIVE FUCKING SCAM because of all the money that they payed themselves with.

[smoothie]

The thing I cannot get past is simply that they claim to have VC funds to pay for development, yet they continue to take 100% payment for pre-ordered products that don't exist, raise the price on these non-existent products, and continue to buy ad space. All this despite having a backlog of orders going back nearly one year.

If development is paid for out of VC funding then pre-order customers(investors) are merely a liability. They plainly do not like having investors as evidenced by their animosity toward these investors. Account management, book keeping, and general CS costs real money...so why do it if you don't need the money? It makes no sense from a business standpoint.

Basically the real question is why take on the liability/risk if you don't have to?

Answer: because they had to. Simple as that.

[rayfloyd]

The thing I cannot get past is simply that they claim to have VC funds to pay for development, yet they continue to take 100% payment for pre-ordered products that don't exist, raise the price on these non-existent products, and continue to buy ad space. All this despite having a backlog of orders going back nearly one year.

If development is paid for out of VC funding then pre-order customers(investors) are merely a liability. They plainly do not like having investors as evidenced by their animosity toward these investors. Account management, book keeping, and general CS costs real money...so why do it if you don't need the money? It makes no sense from a business standpoint.

Basically the real question is why take on the liability/risk if you don't have to?

Answer: because they had to. Simple as that.

[Boelens]

I don't see why they should get a scammer tag. They haven't scammed anyone yet, are offering refunds, and as far as I've seen they're starting to be delivered. I have faith that they'll deliver soon.

[MooC Tals]

I don't see why they should get a scammer tag. They haven't scammed anyone yet, are offering refunds, and as far as I've seen they're starting to be delivered. I have faith that they'll deliver soon.

I agree Lets all get together and make a huge group buy and buy as many units as possible so we can get preferred treatment and jump the line. We can all meet at a convention and video tape a group video of us running our units giving BFL a great media exposure. That alone will get our units quicker.

Just imagine the love and peace we can bring to the world as we show that BFL is good and loves everyone.

Oh my gosh I'm think I'm gonna cry.

[iANDROID]

Read the conversation between Inaba and Garr255:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=236794.80

In order for me to keep my pre-orders Josh is making me do the following: