My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.

[myrkul]

OK, so you are a statistics buff.

No, I just dislike treating everyone who shares a genetic background with an asshole like they are assholes themselves.

I don't blame Jews for the Israeli government's actions, I don't blame Germans for the EU's actions. (Or Hitler's)

[mai77]

it makes all Palestinians happy that you are so accurate.

[myrkul]

it makes all Palestinians happy that you are so accurate.

I'm sure. 

[freespirit]

Hope that doesn't happen in the US.

Keep dreaming:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-07/guest-post-country-over
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-06/these-charts-better-not-represent-true-state-us-economy

[freespirit]

There is a joke going around in Greece these days. It goes: thank god communism didn't come to take our money, capitalism did!!!
 

Those people a clueless. They are in trouble exactly because of their communistic/socialistic practices. Like Margaret Thatcher said: "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money", that's exactly what happened to them.

[solex]

There is a joke going around in Greece these days. It goes: thank god communism didn't come to take our money, capitalism did!!!
 

Those people a clueless. They are in trouble exactly because of their communistic/socialistic practices. Like Margaret Thatcher said: "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money", that's exactly what happened to them.

Yes. Apparently the Greek railway company (govt owned of course) has an annual payroll cost equal to its entire annual earnings. Even if it could operate at zero cost it could still not make a profit after deducting payroll. This isn't just obscenely bankrupt, but insanely so.

Poor Cyprus lost billions into that money vortex called Greece.

[freespirit]

Oh yes, the Greece's state-owned railway company is (was?) really something. I read about it some time ago. As far as I remember its annual expenses were around 400M Euro while revenue (not profit even) was around 100M! (one of the reasons of that was that even employees doing simple menial work had salaries somewhere in the region of 60K or 80K, I do not remember exact figures) The "hole" was apparently subsidized by the taxpayer and that never ending and ever expanding govt debt.

And now they blame the "fascist Germans" and the "evil Troikans" (EU+ECB+IMF) and get to the streets to protest against those evil ones who refuse to pay for Greece's fairy-tale "economical model" illustrated by the example described above.

[Kazu]

Yes. Apparently the Greek railway company (govt owned of course) has an annual payroll cost equal to its entire annual earnings. Even if it could operate at zero cost it could still not make a profit after deducting payroll. This isn't just obscenely bankrupt, but insanely so.

Poor Cyprus lost billions into that money vortex called Greece.

I hate the way people go around blaming the Cyprus as if they are the ones truly at fault. Sure, I get they weren't exactly angels, but they were banks, lending to a government. Thats like, super common, in most any country. Maybe its not ideal, but its not unusual in the slightest. Who is really at fault here is the Greek government. They were the ones who actually lost the money. The Cypriots were just big enough idiots to trust them.

[myrkul]

...they were banks, lending to a government. Thats like, super common, in most any country.

Yes, it is. And Greece is only the worst of the bunch, when it comes to idiotic economic strategies. This should sound to you like the first domino falling.

[freespirit]

I hate the way people go around blaming the Cyprus as if they are the ones truly at fault. Sure, I get they weren't exactly angels, but they were banks, lending to a government. Thats like, super common, in most any country. Maybe its not ideal, but its not unusual in the slightest. Who is really at fault here is the Greek government. They were the ones who actually lost the money. The Cypriots were just big enough idiots to trust them.

The thing is that in Cyprus both the two largest banks AND the government were near (?) bankrupt, all of them having "financial gaps" of several billion. (and that's huge as the GDP of Cyprus is only 17Bn or so)
If it were the banks only, I guess that the govt would just bail them out at the expense of the taxpayer (like they did in Netherlands for instance, another eurozone member). I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but at least it would not cause such a turmoil (at first at least). Also, they would not have anyone to blame.   (as there would not be any need for the EU/ECB to get involved in such case)

[Kazu]

...they were banks, lending to a government. Thats like, super common, in most any country.

Yes, it is. And Greece is only the worst of the bunch, when it comes to idiotic economic strategies. This should sound to you like the first domino falling.

Not only is it the first domino, but also since the EU not only endorsed, but CAUSED the theft to occur, people are likely to start withdrawing from other European banks. This means people will discover that the money they thought was there actually isn't, sooner rather than later. If nobody withdrew, they could hope to ponzi around for a while.

To be fair though, there are probably plenty of governments, and banks, that are perfectly safe. Just not in the EU.

[freespirit]

Not only is it the first domino, but also since the EU not only endorsed, but CAUSED the theft to occur, people are likely to start withdrawing from other European banks.

They SHOULD! While they still can. It's official:
http://www.businessinsider.com/olli-rehn-cyprus-depositors-2013-4

Big bank depositors could take a hit under planned European Union law if a bank fails, the EU's economic affairs chief Olli Rehn said on Saturday, but noted that Cyprus's bailout model was exceptional.

"Cyprus was a special case ... but the upcoming directive assumes that investor and depositor liability will be carried out in case of a bank restructuring or a wind-down," Rehn, the European Economic and Monetary Affairs Commissioner, said in a TV interview with Finland's national broadcaster YLE.

[myrkul]

To be fair though, there are probably plenty of governments, and banks, that are perfectly safe. Just not in the EU.

You know any governments that aren't A) in debt up to their eyeballs, or B) printing money like mad? 'Cause I don't.

[Kazu]

I hate the way people go around blaming the Cyprus as if they are the ones truly at fault. Sure, I get they weren't exactly angels, but they were banks, lending to a government. Thats like, super common, in most any country. Maybe its not ideal, but its not unusual in the slightest. Who is really at fault here is the Greek government. They were the ones who actually lost the money. The Cypriots were just big enough idiots to trust them.

The thing is that in Cyprus both the two largest banks AND the government were near (?) bankrupt, both having "financial gaps" of several billion. (and that's huge as the GDP of Cyprus is only 17Bn or so)
If it were the banks only, I guess that the govt would just bail them out at the expense of the taxpayer (like they did in Netherlands for instance, another eurozone member). I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but at least it would not cause such a turmoil (at first at least). Also, they would not have anyone to blame.   (as there would not be any need for the EU/ECB to get involved in such case)

Here's the thing: In a heavily bank-based economy like Cyprus, the banks provide most of the income for the government, directly or indirectly. When your banks are many times larger than your economy, the taxes you extract from those banks are also many times larger than your economy, and the money those banks pay employee's IS the economy. So, sort of by definition, when the banks fail, so will the government.

Cyprus has been attracting investments from all over the world for years and years. While financial products are not a traditional "export", it is a sort of product that can grow an economy. While cyprus may have been diversified nowhere near enough, they were at least doing something, and the government actually tried to encourage this thing to grow, rather than throw roadblocks at it like much of the rest of the world.

On the other hand, Greece really wasn't doing much of anything except spending money and then borrowing more. I maintain that this whole entire debacle was Greece's fault, Greece was the one that actually wasted the money. The Cypriots were just trying the best they could (although in somewhat of a naiive way) to make the best economy they could on a little island.

[Kazu]

To be fair though, there are probably plenty of governments, and banks, that are perfectly safe. Just not in the EU.

You know any governments that aren't A) in debt up to their eyeballs, or B) printing money like mad? 'Cause I don't.

I don't know, Switzerland?

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/switzerland/government-debt-to-gdp
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/switzerland/inflation-cpi

I'm not 100% sure of the validity of these figures, but it seems obvious that they are at least trying.

[myrkul]

To be fair though, there are probably plenty of governments, and banks, that are perfectly safe. Just not in the EU.

You know any governments that aren't A) in debt up to their eyeballs, or B) printing money like mad? 'Cause I don't.

I don't know, Switzerland?

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/switzerland/government-debt-to-gdp
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/switzerland/inflation-cpi

I'm not 100% sure of the validity of these figures, but it seems obvious that they are at least trying.

Might be the only European country to survive this shitstorm on the horizon.... or maybe just the final casualty.

[solex]

To be fair though, there are probably plenty of governments, and banks, that are perfectly safe. Just not in the EU.

You know any governments that aren't A) in debt up to their eyeballs, or B) printing money like mad? 'Cause I don't.

I don't know, Switzerland?

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/switzerland/government-debt-to-gdp
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/switzerland/inflation-cpi

I'm not 100% sure of the validity of these figures, but it seems obvious that they are at least trying.

Switzerland has struggled to keep the CHF rate reasonable to stop their export base being hollowed out by a cheap euro. They have even threatened to print as many francs as it takes to do it. The problem is that the few countries which try to run a sound monetary system are undermined by all the others who are in competitive devaluation. Unless world trade collapses the currency wars reduce all states to a beggar-thy-neighbour policy.

[freespirit]

Here's the thing: In a heavily bank-based economy like Cyprus, the banks provide most of the income for the government, directly or indirectly. When your banks are many times larger than your economy, the taxes you extract from those banks are also many times larger than your economy, and the money those banks pay employee's IS the economy. So, sort of by definition, when the banks fail, so will the government.

Cyprus has been attracting investments from all over the world for years and years. While financial products are not a traditional "export", it is a sort of product that can grow an economy. While cyprus may have been diversified nowhere near enough, they were at least doing something, and the government actually tried to encourage this thing to grow, rather than throw roadblocks at it like much of the rest of the world.

On the other hand, Greece really wasn't doing much of anything except spending money and then borrowing more. I maintain that this whole entire debacle was Greece's fault, Greece was the one that actually wasted the money. The Cypriots were just trying the best they could (although in somewhat of a naiive way) to make the best economy they could on a little island.

I agree. Partially. While what you've said is likely to be accurate, there were other things going on in Cyprus at the same time. Like insane spending by the government (6 or 7 billion in debt they can't pay back) and unimaginably reckless "investment" policies of the two largest ("TBTF") banks. Which by the way grew to be TBTF as a result of local CB's/govt's licensing policy. (stifling competition)

BTW:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/CoLA+is+anachronistic+and+socially+unjust.-a0295287006
Or see the original source here, page 4: http://issuu.com/cyprusmailnewspaper/docs/2012_july_5

45 per cent of GDP stemmed from the island's operation as an international finance centre while 80 per cent of state revenues from corporate tax came from international companies.

[myrkul]

To be fair though, there are probably plenty of governments, and banks, that are perfectly safe. Just not in the EU.

You know any governments that aren't A) in debt up to their eyeballs, or B) printing money like mad? 'Cause I don't.

I don't know, Switzerland?

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/switzerland/government-debt-to-gdp
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/switzerland/inflation-cpi

I'm not 100% sure of the validity of these figures, but it seems obvious that they are at least trying.

Switzerland has struggled to keep the CHF rate reasonable to stop their export base being hollowed out by a cheap euro. They have even threatened to print as many francs as it takes to do it. The problem is that the few countries which try to run a sound monetary system are undermined by all the others who are in competitive devaluation. Unless world trade collapses the currency wars reduce all states to a beggar-thy-neighbour policy.

I think you mean "bugger"

[Kazu]

Here's the thing: In a heavily bank-based economy like Cyprus, the banks provide most of the income for the government, directly or indirectly. When your banks are many times larger than your economy, the taxes you extract from those banks are also many times larger than your economy, and the money those banks pay employee's IS the economy. So, sort of by definition, when the banks fail, so will the government.

Cyprus has been attracting investments from all over the world for years and years. While financial products are not a traditional "export", it is a sort of product that can grow an economy. While cyprus may have been diversified nowhere near enough, they were at least doing something, and the government actually tried to encourage this thing to grow, rather than throw roadblocks at it like much of the rest of the world.

On the other hand, Greece really wasn't doing much of anything except spending money and then borrowing more. I maintain that this whole entire debacle was Greece's fault, Greece was the one that actually wasted the money. The Cypriots were just trying the best they could (although in somewhat of a naiive way) to make the best economy they could on a little island.

I agree. Partially. While what you say is likely to be accurate, there were other things going on in Cyprus at the same time. Like insane spending by the government (6 or 7 billions in debt they can't pay back) and unimaginably reckless "investment" policies of the two largest ("TBTF") banks. Which by the way grew to be TBTF as a result of local CB's/govt's licensing policy. (stifling competition)

I don't think the Cyprus government stifled competition at all. I had a friend that was selling securities out of Cyprus up until a year ago (thank god) when he switched to Panama. If anything they were reckless in their handing out licenses (Genius Funds).

And as for Government debt, note the first paragraph in my previous reply. They were counting on their main industry, banks, continuing to provide revenue. Its pretty hard to balance a budget when suddenly a very lucrative income stream suddenly disappears. They weren't perfect, but they were at least rational.