My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.

[edmundedgar]

Wait, I was under the impression that a Euro is a Euro is a Euro, are you telling me that a German Euro is worth more than a Greek Euro?

Why even institute a unified currency, then?

The price of a loaf of bread in a typical shop in Germany is different to the price of a loaf of bread in a typical shop in Greece.

Having a unified currency means that you can use the same 10 Euro note to buy bread in Germany or Greece. It doesn't mean that you'll get the same amount of change back.

[myrkul]

Wait, I was under the impression that a Euro is a Euro is a Euro, are you telling me that a German Euro is worth more than a Greek Euro?

Why even institute a unified currency, then?

The price of a loaf of bread in a typical shop in Germany is different to the price of a loaf of bread in a typical shop in Greece.

Having a unified currency means that you can use the same 10 Euro note to buy bread in Germany or Greece. It doesn't mean that you'll get the same amount of change back.

Well. Thanks for correcting me.

Still seems odd... Do they print/create their own, or is it all issued by the ECB?

[edmundedgar]

Still seems odd...

It seems odd that shops in Greece have different prices than shops in Germany? Did you think that shopkeepers everywhere in Europe get paid the same, too?

Do they print/create their own, or is it all issued by the ECB?

I'm a bit hesitant to explain this because I suspect that the confusion comes from you not understanding what inflation is, and it's just going to confuse you. But since you ask the member states print their own banknotes, with permission from the ECB. The bank notes are identically designed, except for the serial numbers, which allow you to tell which country they were printed for if you're interested. The coins are the same on one side, but the other side has a design on it particular to the member state that minted it. But economically it would make no difference if they were all minted in Brussels and shipped to the member states.

[myrkul]

Still seems odd...

It seems odd that shops in Greece have different prices than shops in Germany? Did you think that shopkeepers everywhere in Europe get paid the same, too?

No, it seems odd that the various member states have different rates of inflation. It would be like California and New York printing their own currencies, but getting to call both of them the "Dollar," using the same design, and being forced to accept the other's dollars.

Do they print/create their own, or is it all issued by the ECB?

I'm a bit hesitant to explain this because I suspect that the confusion comes from you not understanding what inflation is, and it's just going to confuse you. But since you ask the member states print their own banknotes, with permission from the ECB. The bank notes are identically designed, except for the serial numbers, which allow you to tell which country they were printed for if you're interested. The coins are the same on one side, but the other side has a design on it particular to the member state that minted it. But economically it would make no difference if they were all minted in Brussels and shipped to the member states.

I know perfectly well what inflation is, thank you. Just because I'm American doesn't mean I'm a half-educated redneck. Thank you for clearing up a misconception I had, and reinforcing the stereotype of Europeans as pricks.

[edmundedgar]

No, it seems odd that the various member states have different rates of inflation. It would be like California and New York printing their own currencies, but getting to call both of them the "Dollar," using the same design, and being forced to accept the other's dollars.

This is why I reckon there's some confusion here about what inflation is. New York and California do have different inflation rates, even though, like Germany and Greece, they use the same currency.

I reckon you must be thinking of something like the money supply or interest rates, which are the same right across the currency area. Or else you're assuming that the only thing that causes inflation is growth in the money supply.

[myrkul]

No, it seems odd that the various member states have different rates of inflation. It would be like California and New York printing their own currencies, but getting to call both of them the "Dollar," using the same design, and being forced to accept the other's dollars.

This is why I reckon there's some confusion here about what inflation is. New York and California do have different inflation rates, even though, like Germany and Greece, they use the same currency.

I reckon you must be thinking of something like the money supply or interest rates, which are the same right across the currency area. Or else you're assuming that the only thing that causes inflation is growth in the money supply.

Tell you what, why don't you tell me what inflation is, just so we're on the same page? The word has many uses, even strictly economic ones, and it's possible we're each using a different one.

[edmundedgar]

Inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.

[mmeijeri]

Prices do indeed differ, what is true is that labour markets are rigged, which means it is difficult for nominal wages to decrease. Inflation caused by printing money still causes real wages to decrease, but it's not a good substitute for having sound money. And labour laws are mostly a responsibility of the individual member states.

[myrkul]

Inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.

As I thought. You're using price inflation (in fact, you appear to have copied and pasted the definition), and I'm using monetary inflation.

It's rather stupid to assume I'm speaking of price inflation here:

Country A is failing fast. Country B is not doing so hot, but far from failing just yet. Countries, in their death throes, typically inflate the shit out of their currency, to try and prop up their economies. This means that, ceteris paribus, A would have a much higher inflation rate than B. Putting them on the same currency C forces A and B to have the same inflation rate. Two things could happen here: C slows A down to the inflation rate of B, or C speeds B up to match the rate of A. If Bitcoin (or any hard currency) were C, the former would happen. They'd have no choice. But since the Euro is fiat just like every other type of funny money out there, the latter happens, and B's economy is dragged down by A. A good look at the last decade shows this clearly.

Especially when I explicitly state I'm speaking of monetary inflation:

Countries, in their death throes, typically inflate the shit out of their currency, to try and prop up their economies.

So perhaps this is just a reading comprehension problem.

[edmundedgar]

myrkul, that's why I asked if you were talking about growth in the money supply...

So what are countries A and B in this case? Is A supposed to be Germany and B Cyprus, or is A Greece and B Cyprus?

Edit to add: Or vice versa, and you're talking about earlier?

[myrkul]

So what are countries A and B in this case? Is A supposed to be Germany and B Cyprus, or is A Greece and B Cyprus?

Just A and B. It's actually far worse than my little example, because you've got 27 countries, all tied to the same monetary base. And some of those economies are lead weights.

My point is, you've tied a bunch of failing economies to one or two fairly robust ones, and expected them to all support each other. It's no wonder Switzerland stayed out.

[edmundedgar]

Just A and B.

The discussion up until there was about Greece and Cyprus, so I'm trying to figure out how this is supposed to fit in. What's puzzling me is that I'm not seeing any point when the ECB was printing shedloads of money to save a country that was failing fast, and that was what caused its problems, which seems to be the premise of your point about (if I'm reading it right) how tying 27 countries together into the Eurozone is really stupid, but tying a bunch of countries together into the Bitcoin zone would work OK. So it would help if you'd fill in what countries you're actually talking about.

[Edited for clarity]

[myrkul]

Just A and B.

The discussion up until there was about Greece and Cyprus, so I'm trying to figure out how this is supposed to fit in. What's puzzling me is that I'm not seeing any point when the ECB was printing shedloads of money to save a country that was failing fast, and that was what caused its problems, which seems to be the premise of your point about (if I'm reading it right) how tying 27 countries together into the Eurozone is really stupid, but tying a bunch of countries together into the Bitcoin zone would work OK. So it would help if you'd fill in what countries you're actually talking about.

[Edited for clarity]

My mistake, they haven't been inflating as much as I thought. At least, not recently. Instead, they've taken a slightly different route.... Borrowing from each other:
Monetary aggregate (M3, percentage growth):


Debt as a % of GDP:


Source:http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/home.do?chart=t1.11


I suppose they could do this just as well in the "bitcoin zone," but it would be even more obvious how deep a shit-hole they'd dug themselves into.

[herzmeister]

After Germany was unified, there were enormous structural differences, but the same currency D-Mark was used.

Normally differently valued currencies would reflect such structural differences.

But if you have the same currency and same political system, what happened was there were transfer payments between the federal subdivisions.

These transfer payments still happen today in Germany as we have the EUR.

But they don't happen between the countries of the EU, because they're not unified politically.

The real scandal is that whoever ordered currency unification without political unification must have seen that this would lead to conflict that would rather separate than unify the people in the EU.

Negligence or agenda? You decide.

[mmeijeri]

If product / service and labour markets are flexible this isn't a problem and you don't need transfer payments. Bitcoin will have a completely fixed money supply, so if you want socialism and transfer payments, you'd better support something else.

[herzmeister]

If product / service and labour markets are flexible this isn't a problem and you don't need transfer payments. Bitcoin will have a completely fixed money supply, so if you want socialism and transfer payments, you'd better support something else.

I was not speaking on the basis of what *I* want or don't want, but rather on the basis of the status quo of the current political scenario as-is.

[cr1776]

Will you share the country? Caymans? Antigua?

OP, would you mind sharing which country you are planning to move to, and what are it's basic pros over some other ones that you considered?

We've already moved to Caribbean country, finished incorporation, opened a bank account and our business is now continuing to function.
I'm really happy to run business here as we are absolutely tax exempt. We have converted part of our bitcoins into dollars to replenish our circulating assets and fulfill our commitments to the customers.
Another good thing here is that we haven't experienced any difficulties with a local bank while receiving significant amount from MtGox. This money is also tax-free as it came from abroad.

Iron77, before we finish with legal action against Central Bank of Cyprus, I cannot disclose which country we moved in, because it probably may be used against us in court.

[myrkul]

Will you share the country? Caymans? Antigua?

OP, would you mind sharing which country you are planning to move to, and what are it's basic pros over some other ones that you considered?

We've already moved to Caribbean country, finished incorporation, opened a bank account and our business is now continuing to function.
I'm really happy to run business here as we are absolutely tax exempt. We have converted part of our bitcoins into dollars to replenish our circulating assets and fulfill our commitments to the customers.
Another good thing here is that we haven't experienced any difficulties with a local bank while receiving significant amount from MtGox. This money is also tax-free as it came from abroad.

Iron77, before we finish with legal action against Central Bank of Cyprus, I cannot disclose which country we moved in, because it probably may be used against us in court.

Eventually, he probably will. But not before the court case is done.

[dmartig]

you can find a list of countries that are the most "agreeable" to move assets to.
you will find that some of the wealthiest people and corporations avail themselves
of the sunshine and amenities. discretion is of course paramount.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Best-Countries-To-Open-An-Offshore-Bank-Account&id=1189736

i have an account in india. it pays 9% on a 1 year deposit

[malevolent]

i have an account in india. it pays 9% on a 1 year deposit

Is the account only in INR or does it also pay 9% for other currencies? INR loses in value a lot (inflation rate is 6% (WPI) to 11% (CPI) and the EER is in the 80s.