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Author Topic: MC2: A cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system  (Read 194365 times)
achillez
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July 25, 2013, 03:46:37 AM
 #841

+1 LuckyBit -- right on.
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cryptrol
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July 25, 2013, 10:49:46 AM
Last edit: July 25, 2013, 10:21:13 PM by cryptrol
 #842

I haven't looked into much detail but, isn't quarkcoin using the random hashing algo that netcoin details ?
This could provide a nice test bed for netcoin ... or ... tacotime is it you ? Grin
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July 25, 2013, 03:50:33 PM
 #843

Wow, this coin will either never be released, or by the time it is, there will be much better.    Taking way too much time.

I'm working all day today (took the day off work) on finishing the wiki specifications and moving back to the whitepaper (_ingsoc wants it done by Monday for some potential developers), so, probably it will be moving to development pretty soon.

When you make sweeping changes to the Bitcoin protocol, there's quite a lot that can go wrong.  I identify new vulnerabilities (and potential solutions) every time I sit down to work, I feel like.

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
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July 25, 2013, 03:51:02 PM
 #844

I haven't looked into much detail but, isn't quarkcoin using the random hashing algo that netcoin details ?
This could provide a nice test bed for quarkcoin ... or ... tacotime is it you ? Grin

Quarkcoin seems to have the same idea, although it looks like they are avoiding usage of scrypt.

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
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July 25, 2013, 05:46:18 PM
 #845

Ah I see your plan is a bit different then what was presented in the first paper and which I was still operating under.  Your looking much much deeper into the block-chain and picking individual bits out to create a 1024 bit value that gets hashed before modulus.  While this dose pull in a lot of good entropy I'm still concerned that having Block #0 (the block immediately preceding the one being mined) is a concern.  If your willing to go thousands of blocks back for entropy why not just start at block #64 (that's 64 blocks prior, and go back all the way back to #65599) to completely block any possibility of manipulation by throwing away certain solutions.  An ASIC equipped attacker would need to mine astronomically large amounts of blocks (8^64) in order to have control of even 1 bit of the resulting lottery value.  It's overkill, but better to be safe then sorry.
Well, I didn't want the tickets/lottery hashes to be completely known before they were able to be used (especially the lottery winner hashes).  To manipulate the ticket/lottery winner hash if you made the final bit from a block 64 blocks behind, you would only have to manipulate that block from 64 blocks ago.  In any case, manipulation of that block only allows you to select from 2 potential ticket/lottery numbers.  To completely manipulate ticket generation, you would have to manipulate the 16 last blocks in the chain.

I think it's likely that I should do away with the pulling of bits and then hashing completely and simply pull 15 bits from the last 65535 blocks and 1 bit from the current one (and something similar for ticket generation) and make that the ticket.  In order to pull off such an attack, the attacker would need to have 51% hash power during each of these 16 blocks, which is extremely unlikely given the timespan over which they occur.

Quote
Your concern for a set rotation of hashes causing the lottery ticket value to be drawn from blocks with similar hash type blocks can be solved quite simply by going back in a jump size that's not a multiple with your number of hash types, say ever 101 blocks which over the 1024 blocks your sampling should draw equally from all hash types.
I think it's easier if you choose a different entropy source; I'm going to update the wiki later today with a more recent (and interesting) idea.

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
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July 26, 2013, 05:56:20 AM
 #846

Lots of updates have been made to the wiki; more to come.

Distribution scheme for the kickstarter is here, for those interested in purchasing stake tickets: http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/Distribution_Scheme_for_Kickstarter

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
JessicaMILFson
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July 26, 2013, 06:18:01 AM
 #847

Hmm....just to confirm, so around 2.6 million coins will be issued via the kickstarter?

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July 26, 2013, 06:20:36 AM
 #848

Hmm....just to confirm, so around 2.6 million coins will be issued via the kickstarter?

With a goal of $100,000, this makes it effectively it $26 a coin?

For the first $50,000, there will be 1,956,000 coins offered through stake votes;
$50,000 / 1956000 coins =  $ 0.02556237218813905930470347648262 per coin

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
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July 26, 2013, 06:25:46 AM
 #849

Ahh. I see. Thanks for the correction
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July 26, 2013, 06:38:21 AM
 #850

Hmm....just to confirm, so around 2.6 million coins will be issued via the kickstarter?

With a goal of $100,000, this makes it effectively it $26 a coin?

For the first $50,000, there will be 1,956,000 coins offered through stake votes;
$50,000 / 1956000 coins =  $ 0.02556237218813905930470347648262 per coin

Can someone please answer my questions?

1 ) So anyone who donates an amount in USD receives the corresponding tickets and each ticket has a private key for getting the coins?
I also do not understand this (quoting from http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/Distribution_Scheme_for_Kickstarter):

Quote
For the first 20,864 blocks, these tickets will be used as the PoS votes confirming PoW blocks, thus securing the network. The lottery winner hashes for these blocks will also be randomly selected and enclosed with the launch version of the program; also enclosed will be a record of the addresses for all of the private keys distributed.

2) The first 20,864 blocks will be premined before the original launch?
3) By lottery we mean that only specific tickets will win?
4) If I donate 1000$ then I get 1000$/0.02556237218813905930470347648262$ = 39,123 coins or tickets?


Sorry for the newb questions, just wanting to clarify things
Thanks in advance,

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Etlase2
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July 26, 2013, 06:42:40 AM
 #851

For the first $50,000, there will be 1,956,000 coins offered through stake votes;
$50,000 / 1956000 coins =  $ 0.02556237218813905930470347648262 per coin

Not only is that wiki page written atrociously, you should not be drawing any conclusion that the kickstarter has anything to do with the value of the coin. What the hell

tacotime
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July 26, 2013, 06:45:56 AM
 #852

1) Yes
2) The PoS votes for the first 20,864 will be predetermined, yes, but the PoW rewards (which are greater than the PoS rewards) are given to the miners.  This is partially because no PoS submissions will mature before 20,864 blocks.
3) The probability is that all tickets will come up within 65,336 blocks, but the initial lottery ticket hashes will be selected randomly for the first 20,864 blocks within a range of 0-20864 to ensure that all PoS miners contributing to the kickstarter will get them.  This may later be adjusted to 65,336 blocks, I haven't decided yet and am still thinking about it.
4) 39,123 coins, well, it will be truncated so 1564 tickets I guess.

I may adjust this to 65,336 blocks in the coming days, check back.  But this should give you guys a general idea of how the distribution works.

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
JessicaMILFson
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July 26, 2013, 06:52:45 AM
 #853

So are those rates firm? Any chance to lower the initial $50000 to 0.02? Also is there any way to pay in Bitcoin or Litecoin?
tacotime
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July 26, 2013, 06:56:13 AM
 #854

So are those rates firm? Also is there any way to pay in Bitcoin or Litecoin?

I updated it again, I realized it should have been 65536 blocks, or 327,680 stake votes (whew, sleepy).

But that means they're even cheaper, I suppose.  And, no, not yet, well give everyone a heads up as to when the kickstarter for the chain will launch and when we have a dev team in place.

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
cryptrol
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July 26, 2013, 06:57:03 AM
 #855

I think you are doing a great job, the kickstarter scheme is just brilliant.
This is the first coin that I know of that fully uses the potential of PoS from the start.

BTW, a link to the wiki in the first post would be very useful. It is getting harder and harder to find things in this thread, and just FYI the netcoin forums are down ATM.

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July 26, 2013, 06:57:43 AM
 #856

For the first $50,000, there will be 1,956,000 coins offered through stake votes;
$50,000 / 1956000 coins =  $ 0.02556237218813905930470347648262 per coin

Not only is that wiki page written atrociously, you should not be drawing any conclusion that the kickstarter has anything to do with the value of the coin. What the hell

Thanks Etlase2

The kickstarter has nothing to do with the value of the coin -- but it is used to disseminate stake votes among the network before there is any maturation of the stake lottery winner system, and to provide funding for development.

The rest of the wiki is here (although some information is still being worked out): http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/Netcoin:Community_Portal

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
tacotime
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July 26, 2013, 06:59:59 AM
 #857

I think you are doing a great job, the kickstarter scheme is just brilliant.
This is the first coin that I know of that fully uses the potential of PoS from the start.

BTW, a link to the wiki in the first post would be very useful. It is getting harder and harder to find things in this thread, and just FYI the netcoin forums are down ATM.



Thanks!

I added the wiki to the main page.  The forum will be back up around when the kickstarter launches (and I can get my hands out of this and leave it to the people implementing it to move forward with the project, so hopefully we will see less delays).

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
JessicaMILFson
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July 26, 2013, 07:00:29 AM
 #858

While we are waiting for the dev team to work on the technological aspects, do you feel that its worthwhile to have a website content/marketing/strategic planning team established early on so that when the coin is released, we would have a plan as to how to strategically market and increase the adoption of this coin?
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July 26, 2013, 07:02:21 AM
 #859

While we are waiting for the dev team to work on the technological aspects, do you feel that its worthwhile to have a website content/marketing/strategic planning team established early on so that when the coin is released, we would have a plan as to how to strategically market and increase the adoption of this coin?

This is all an important part of the cryptocurrency's design, but beyond what I can supply right now in terms of time.  _ingsoc has largely been handling this aspect up until now.

Code:
XMR: 44GBHzv6ZyQdJkjqZje6KLZ3xSyN1hBSFAnLP6EAqJtCRVzMzZmeXTC2AHKDS9aEDTRKmo6a6o9r9j86pYfhCWDkKjbtcns
wizzardTim
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July 26, 2013, 07:04:02 AM
 #860

1) Yes
2) The PoS votes for the first 20,864 will be predetermined, yes, but the PoW rewards (which are greater than the PoS rewards) are given to the miners.  This is partially because no PoS submissions will mature before 20,864 blocks.
3) The probability is that all tickets will come up within 65,336 blocks, but the initial lottery ticket hashes will be selected randomly for the first 20,864 blocks within a range of 0-20864 to ensure that all PoS miners contributing to the kickstarter will get them.  This may later be adjusted to 65,336 blocks, I haven't decided yet and am still thinking about it.
4) 39,123 coins, well, it will be truncated so 1564 tickets I guess.

I may adjust this to 65,336 blocks in the coming days, check back.  But this should give you guys a general idea of how the distribution works.

Thank you very much taco for answering my questions and doing it so quickly Smiley

So to sum up, every ticket will come up some time in the future (until 65,336 blocks are found), and from that point on, the owner of the ticket can use the private key contained in it to get the coins.
Will there be a notification of some sort regarding the appearance of the ticket? Or I'll just have to wait for blocks to be found and try the private key in the ticket (from time to time) to get the coins?  

Thanks in advance

Behold the Tangle Mysteries! Dare to know It's truth.

- Excerpt from the IOTA Sacred Texts Vol. I
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