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Author Topic: MC2: A cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system  (Read 194365 times)
tacotime
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August 22, 2013, 12:15:07 AM
 #921

Sorry I've been gone. I didn't even have a desk to sit at until today, I'll reply to the questions above tomorrow.

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August 23, 2013, 02:48:55 PM
 #922

Sorry this took so long, I was moving across the country and separating stuff between my ex and I Tongue

QUESTIONS:
Q1. What can a Lottery Hash Winner actually win? Coins? How many? 37.5 (as per whitepaper's 25+12.5) per block?
Lottery winner hash enables someone with a matching ticket to claim 25 coins (as per wiki; this will be in next version of whitepaper).  There is an average of 125 coins generated per block from stake votes.

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Q2. If this is a lottery, can you please explain odds/probability of actually winning per ticket?
1 in 65536.

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Q3. Why are tickets being sold in different donation brackets have different number of coin values, when in fact coin value will be ultimately determined by market supply/demand?
Tickets sold via the kickstarter are just at predetermined prices to ensure the funding of the project and have nothing to do with what their eventual value might be (which could be $0.0001 USD or $100 USD).

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Q4. Is there going to be a cut off $$ donation ceiling or # of tickets sold? Why/Why not?
There is no cutoff for the donation amounts, however we will run out of ticket.

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Q5. What is the tentative date this crowdfunding effort will start?
Unfortunately ingsoc has indicated that there are a number of legal things to get around now because this is technically being considered an investment in a number of jurisdictions.  Until this is ironed out and we have a country willing to host the funding, this is a little up in the air, but it should be soon.

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Q6. Where exactly  (URL?) will this take place? kickstarter.com ?
Depends on the question above -- we're sorting out the legalities.

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Q7. How many days/weeks will it run for?
30-60 days, but it's likely all the tickets will be sold within a week or two given the current interest.

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Q8. "Tickets are private keys corresponding to a stakeholder vote", which according to the whitepaper can only be exercised after 29 days (whitepaper: page 4 section 2.).... is that after 29 days from genesis block, or every 29 days?
This was adjusted to ~45 days.  Ticket generation occurs on a per block basis, so it's ~45 days worth of blocks after the ticket was submitted to the blockchain (and so the first ones will mature ~45 days after the genesis block).

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Q9. To get coins out of these tickets, the whitepaper suggests that we (ticket holders) have to perform specific actions, like vote on blocks. How exactly does one vote on a block?
See the wiki:
http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/Netcoin_Proof-of-Work_and_Proof-of-Stake_Hybrid_Design
http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/Algorithms_for_PoS_Voters_to_Assess_the_Validity_of_PoW_Blocks
Basically, PoW miner submits block to network, PoS miner checks to see if it also saw the same Tx, then validates with a PoS subblock.  The PoS subblock is where the PoS miner's coins are generated.

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Q10. Assume I have $5,000 I want to throw at this. That puts me in the first bracket with 9,216 tickets or private keys. What tools will I have to possible manage / make sense of that many private keys?
The private keys will be shipped to you via PGP.  After that you just feed them to the client who can import them in an automated fashion, and set the client to automatically mine PoS blocks.

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Q11. With 9216 private keys, I have upwards of 65,536 blocks I can vote on. That means I have to sit there and manually vote on at least every 7 blocks on average? Or, at 30 blocks per hour (pg.5 of whitepaper), this means I have aprox a 2 minute window to vote on each block, and assuming I can do this in about 15 seconds, with 9216 private keys that means I have to be glued to my computer for at least 138,240 seconds or 38.4 hours. This sounds like WAY too much work for a $5,000 donation. Why do I have to work at all to give away my money? Why can't you just give us X # of coins per Y # of $ donated? I'm probably grossly misunderstanding all of this, but if I am even partially right, this sounds way too convoluted/requiring too much effort on behalf of people that want to give you $.
Block voting will be automated and extensively tested, but of course you can manually vote on blocks too if you want (or just set the client to accept any blocks seen on the network).
http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/Algorithms_for_PoS_Voters_to_Assess_the_Validity_of_PoW_Blocks
Basically the only work you have to do is leave your client running with the private keys.  The block voting just ensures a consensus network of transactions, so PoW miners can no longer ignore or cherry pick transactions -- if you submit a transaction to the network and the fee is high enough, it can NOT be ignored by the PoW miner, at least with the proposed automated PoS voting (unlike Bitcoin, where the PoW miners can do whatever they want to the transaction tree).

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Q12. If a lottery ticket holder can only collect his coins by voting Yea on a block, why would anyone with piles of lottery tickets ever vote no on any block off the start here? Which then begs the question, why bother with voting at all if all votes are going to be Yea's so people can collect their coins. Clearly, I'm very confused. Smiley
Maybe I forgot to indicate it in the wiki -- stakeholders voting Yea on a block with majority Nay votes have their rewards destroyed, so voters have an incentive to vote with the majority.  You can always vote in all PoW blocks if you like, though, so long as you don't worry about having your rewards destroyed if you aren't voting in the majority.

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Q13. Page 5 of whitepaper states that a block must be signed by 5 different signatories (people?). What happens if not all 5 sign it? What if only 3 out of 5 sign it ever, do those 3 people get their coin rewards or do they have to wait around to be compensated until all 5 sign it?
Signatories = tickets.  You need a majority of tickets signing to pass the block -- if only 2/5 votes, the PoW miners will continue hashing old work to get a new PoW block with a new lottery winner number.
If 3 out of 5 sign it, the block is included in the blockchain as either valid (Yea) or invalid (Nay), and the ticketholders for these 3 tickets get their reward.  PoW continues from this new block.
PoW doesn't have to wait around for 5 people to sign it, but the block header includes a hash of the ordered subblock headers of the previous voters.  So, if 3/5 sign and the PoW miners generate a new block from only these 3 votes but the PoS miners see 5/5 signatures, the PoS miners will probably reject this block that only includes the 5 votes.  Network propagation is pretty fast (~seconds), so as long as the PoW miners give themselves a few seconds they shouldn't need to worry extensively about stales from voting.  This does introduce a type of attack where someone tries to mess with the network by submitting PoS votes late and forcing PoW invalidation via PoS, which will need to be addressed at later steps (probably a similar solution to transaction time evaluation as described in the wiki can be used).  Whether or not anyone would actually want to perform this attack (and potentially forfeit PoS coins) is arguable as well, but there does need to be a safeguard against it.

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Q14. I am confused with the very first 2 lines of the web page:
"For the first ~45 days of the coin (32,768 blocks), there will be no lottery hash winners chosen. To safeguard the network, stakeholder tickets for these blocks will be issued via the crowdfunding platform, in proportion to the quantity pledged."

First sentence says there will be no lottery hash winners "chosen". Chosen by whom/what - yes I read they will be 'randomly selected', is this randomness the same mentioned in the whitepaper? Then second sentence says to safeguard the network tickets will be issued from crowdfunding... so how exactly does crowdfunding secure the network when he with the most $ gets the most votes? Also if the first 45 days of blocks will be exclusively allocated to crowdfunding pre-assigned ticket holders, how exactly does this incentivise any mining?[/quote]
For the first 45 days I haven't exactly decided how to select ticket winners.  We will have the unusual event in which we have exactly 5 tickets available per block (there will be a lot of variance on the actual chain after 45 days) and that we have 5 tickets for any possible lottery winner hash.  For the chain to keep going, then, we need to select each lottery winner hash ONCE AND ONLY ONCE for any given block.  You can use the current selection method as stated before with a rollover if you hit any lottery winner number that's already been selected before, ensuring that we hit every lottery winner hash once.  There needs to be a way to deal with absentee voters at this stage as well.  The algorithm as described in the wiki already does, but if we're selecting each ticket once that means eventually we'll come back to those same tickets and at some point the holders will need to vote to keep the chain going -- I guess we can do some kind of checkpointing for the first 45 or so days that is only active when we have a case of PoS tickets never being claimed, just to ensure the chain runs smoothly until we begin to accumulate more PoS tickets via generation.

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mxmz.in
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August 23, 2013, 10:21:19 PM
 #923

I understand why it's taking so long, but ... beware http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect
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August 23, 2013, 10:23:48 PM
 #924

I understand why it's taking so long, but ... beware http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect

Interesting concept. Yes, I share your concerns.

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August 24, 2013, 03:11:56 AM
 #925

Taco

Can u give us a rough ballpark of when u may be ready ?

1 month 2 months ...6 months ?? (Please dont say 2 weeks lolz)





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August 29, 2013, 01:04:45 PM
 #926

Posted some stuff on the netcoin wiki. Could lead to something pretty fucking awesome in my opinion.

http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/BitUSD_Derivative_Implementation_(Cunicula-style)

I'm not sure about temporary secrecy vs. open publication of a full design recipie (for others to potentially copy).

[e.g. see http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/Theft_Protection_through_Reversibility_and_Failsafe_Accounts, compare to mastercoin whitepaper]

What do you think TacoTime? If you're not interested I will probably just disclose everything now.
If you are interested, then it may be strategically advantageous to disclose stuff privately to people committed to netcoin.

I would contribute a lot of time to helping out with design in other areas if you decide to make this feature happen.


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August 29, 2013, 03:43:49 PM
 #927

Posted some stuff on the netcoin wiki. Could lead to something pretty fucking awesome in my opinion.

http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/BitUSD_Derivative_Implementation_(Cunicula-style)

I'm not sure about temporary secrecy vs. open publication of a full design recipie (for others to potentially copy).

[e.g. see http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/Theft_Protection_through_Reversibility_and_Failsafe_Accounts, compare to mastercoin whitepaper]

What do you think TacoTime? If you're not interested I will probably just disclose everything now.
If you are interested, then it may be strategically advantageous to disclose stuff privately to people committed to netcoin.

I would contribute a lot of time to helping out with design in other areas if you decide to make this feature happen.

For what it's worth, I agree. As long as whatever is kept private becomes public once it goes live, I don't have any objections. Even better, being transparent about keeping it private and then making it public later, so that everyone understands why it's private. Sounds a bit like doublespeak, but it's not a black and white world. What do others think about what cunicula proposes?

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August 29, 2013, 04:46:17 PM
 #928

i trust cunicula and taco. no doubt about them, ever Wink

"killer app" of BTC = MasterCoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=265488.0Mastercoin(A new protocol layer on top of Bitcoin)
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August 30, 2013, 12:40:26 AM
 #929

Posted some stuff on the netcoin wiki. Could lead to something pretty fucking awesome in my opinion.

http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/BitUSD_Derivative_Implementation_(Cunicula-style)

I'm not sure about temporary secrecy vs. open publication of a full design recipie (for others to potentially copy).

[e.g. see http://www.netcoin.io/wiki/Theft_Protection_through_Reversibility_and_Failsafe_Accounts, compare to mastercoin whitepaper]

What do you think TacoTime? If you're not interested I will probably just disclose everything now.
If you are interested, then it may be strategically advantageous to disclose stuff privately to people committed to netcoin.

I would contribute a lot of time to helping out with design in other areas if you decide to make this feature happen.

Why not keep it private? Do what is best for Netcoin. People need a reason to use Netcoin and also there is no point in putting everything up for the attack of the clones.

Netcoin should set the standard not chase it.
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August 30, 2013, 01:03:19 AM
 #930

I always like to develop ideas openly and encourage their theft -- probably have spent too much time in academia.  But whoever I pass this to can develop as they see fit.

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August 30, 2013, 06:13:33 AM
 #931

I always like to develop ideas openly and encourage their theft -- probably have spent too much time in academia.  But whoever I pass this to can develop as they see fit.
Very good. You are right. Really my impulse to secrecy is driven by spite, rather than a desire to contribute to society. I'll make a white paper and link it to the wiki.

Note to everyone advocating secrecy. Ultimately, talent is much more important to success than secrecy. Disclosure of complex schemes won't help competitors much because they can't easily distinguish between feasible and infeasible ideas. (i.e. they can borrow low-hanging fruit, but complex knowledge is quite resistant to diffusion unless it is accompanied by a whole lot of hand-holding.)  Our real competitor is the conventional financial system. They only benefit from in-fighting.



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August 31, 2013, 06:11:46 AM
Last edit: August 31, 2013, 06:40:24 AM by Luckybit
 #932

I always like to develop ideas openly and encourage their theft -- probably have spent too much time in academia.  But whoever I pass this to can develop as they see fit.
Very good. You are right. Really my impulse to secrecy is driven by spite, rather than a desire to contribute to society. I'll make a white paper and link it to the wiki.

Note to everyone advocating secrecy. Ultimately, talent is much more important to success than secrecy. Disclosure of complex schemes won't help competitors much because they can't easily distinguish between feasible and infeasible ideas. (i.e. they can borrow low-hanging fruit, but complex knowledge is quite resistant to diffusion unless it is accompanied by a whole lot of hand-holding.)  Our real competitor is the conventional financial system. They only benefit from in-fighting.



No one advocated secrecy. Even you weren't advocating for secrecy or at least I didn't think you were. You did say you'd share it with people committed to Netcoin and delay releasing it to the public.

The problem with giving it to everyone at the same time is Netcoin isn't even in development yet so if you put the idea out now it will probably be bastardized by some alt-coin and implemented incorrect. This could give people the impression that the idea was never a good idea to begin with.

I think you should release the white paper for sure, but why not release the white paper when the time is right?

My reasoning being:

In many cases a badly implemented good idea is worse than keeping the good idea to yourself until you can properly implement it or find others who can properly implement it.

If the idea really is good like you say it is and you intend to release it to the public then delaying the release of the idea isn't promoting secrecy, it's just giving you the ability to create the first implementation of the idea. That is first mover advantage.

My opinion is ideas have no real owners. All ideas shall be reused, borrowed, and in most cases this is a good thing (especially for software). At the same time while I believe in transparency and open exchange of ideas as can be evidenced just by looking at my track record, and I agree it takes skill/talent to implement good ideas, I also recognize that Netcoin itself will need the best first implementation of the idea or why would people choose Netcoin over that other altcoin which has similar ideas such as multiple hashing algorithms and similar features even if poorly implemented?

Novel ideas are good when consolidated into one overall product or package as an introduction to the concept.

Take the genius behind proof of work, now that we have that idea we can continue to improve on it. But Satoshi had to bring all of those ideas together into Bitcoin, many of those ideas existed already but not in the same context. So the question really is whether or not it's wise to share your ideas prior to development or delay until development starts. Either way there is no secrecy because the community will receive the ideas at some point.

I hope development starts soon. It's up to you and Tacotime how you want to develop this idea and who you want to share it with but once it's put into the public domain it's out there. My opinion is there is no rush to put it out there in detail if your goal is to implement it first. I've seen some ideas from Netcoin already get borrowed and unlike the academic world you don't see any attribution to Tacotime.
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August 31, 2013, 09:06:29 AM
 #933

I always like to develop ideas openly and encourage their theft -- probably have spent too much time in academia.  But whoever I pass this to can develop as they see fit.
Very good. You are right. Really my impulse to secrecy is driven by spite, rather than a desire to contribute to society. I'll make a white paper and link it to the wiki.

Note to everyone advocating secrecy. Ultimately, talent is much more important to success than secrecy. Disclosure of complex schemes won't help competitors much because they can't easily distinguish between feasible and infeasible ideas. (i.e. they can borrow low-hanging fruit, but complex knowledge is quite resistant to diffusion unless it is accompanied by a whole lot of hand-holding.)  Our real competitor is the conventional financial system. They only benefit from in-fighting.



Wow, great post. I'm definitely going to quote you on this when I get a chance Smiley

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22naru
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September 03, 2013, 08:41:32 AM
 #934

cheers for FAQ ,tacotime. keep doing a gret work . Smiley
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September 03, 2013, 09:34:56 AM
 #935

From the wiki :
Quote
However, we know from mtrlt's data that when using algorithms employing a lookup gap/TMTO, that this relationship does not necessarily hold true and becomes unpredictable.

IMO this has been proven wrong and AFAIK mtrlt miner was never released to the public to analyse it. In fact other miner's where build that hold the predictions true (for YAC mining Chacha/scrypt N=8192) making every Nfactor increase to half the hashrate.
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September 03, 2013, 06:05:48 PM
 #936

BTW- Someone launched a Netcoin (LTC clone) a couple days ago.. I guess it's best to remove a name from any pre-discussion.

BTC:113mFe2e3oRkZQ5GeqKhoHbGtVw16unnw2
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September 03, 2013, 06:41:39 PM
 #937

Looks like he started a war. He admitted that he did not read this thread at all and assumed that we are a dead currency or not in development. But this is far from the truth. We have already registered the Netcoin domains as well registering with the authorities in order to enable a crowd fundraising campaign.

As per the developer of the other Netcoin, NetDude

Quote
No its not, i just found the thread over ther (MC2), seems that coin is just some ideas or theory and was either never launched, or died allready. (i diddnt read the whole thread so correct me if im wrong)
 
he can easily name it what he wants when/if he makes the coin

https://cryptocointalk.com/topic/1132-netcoin-net-launched-today/
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September 03, 2013, 06:56:25 PM
 #938

Looks like he started a war. He admitted that he did not read this thread at all and assumed that we are a dead currency or not in development. But this is far from the truth. We have already registered the Netcoin domains as well registering with the authorities in order to enable a crowd fundraising campaign.

As per the developer of the other Netcoin, NetDude

Quote
No its not, i just found the thread over ther (MC2), seems that coin is just some ideas or theory and was either never launched, or died allready. (i diddnt read the whole thread so correct me if im wrong)
 
he can easily name it what he wants when/if he makes the coin

https://cryptocointalk.com/topic/1132-netcoin-net-launched-today/


While I support this thread and its efforts, unless a product is out there, there is nothing to stop someone from using the name. And your quote is not fair, as his first post said he didn't hear of it before, and it wasn't until someone pointed it out that he posted the above comment.

Regardless, a "war" is a bit silly. I doubt the coin has much merit as it is a simple clone, but they have as much right to use that name as anyone else.

BTC:113mFe2e3oRkZQ5GeqKhoHbGtVw16unnw2
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September 04, 2013, 02:54:12 PM
 #939

the name is never important, the tech behind the coin is Wink

"killer app" of BTC = MasterCoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=265488.0Mastercoin(A new protocol layer on top of Bitcoin)
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September 05, 2013, 09:29:12 AM
 #940

the name is never important, the tech behind the coin is Wink

PPcoin.
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