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Author Topic: Monero's ANON FAIL !  (Read 8113 times)
bbc.reporter
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December 14, 2016, 12:46:43 AM
 #81

So i have a few questions..

If ANON was needed so badly why did the dev's not submit the idea to the Bitcoin core dev's foundation etc ?
Was it because they knew it would be rejected ?

Seems to me i am not the only one who has rejected this anon coin idea huh ?
Otherwise BTC would have anon code in it already mirroring what Monero is doing.

I love how they patronize everyone and say it's needed.. but the entire Bitcoin world rejects them.
Not just .. Spoetnik  Cheesy

Instead they felt the need to create a NEW coin and tack on ANON features..
Rather than trying to get the ANON code integrated into BTC.

Hmm i wonder why ? Any idea why people ?
Why is it they would want to start a new coin ? hmmmm ? Maybe Risto can answer he bought LOTS of them and controls the coin.

Yeah.. the guy with the Pink Bentley who lives in a castle.

So what do we see bottom line ?
Want Morono's ? well guess what ? you need to buy them.. with Bitcoin  Cheesy
Yup.. Bitcoin hahahhahahah

AND ...

You can line up at Poloniex the official shitcoin exchange for them to buy them clutching your picture ID.

So Profiteers.. do you see through this retarded little facade ?

You miss the point. Anonymity is not in the road map for bitcoin because it has its own problems with scaling and the growing size of the blockchain. I also do not agree that there is no need for another coin that has anonymity implemented. There is. Look at it this way, Monero is a real world live testnet for bitcoin. 

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Spoetnik (OP)
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December 14, 2016, 03:51:59 AM
 #82

We should be doing some TestNet work with compliance.. not the other way.
Why ? Because we want a crypto currency *USED* ..not traded on Poloniex for profit.

The large infrastructure i mentioned is out there and it is resisting crypto coins.
I'd like to see us all move forward and make progress.

So far after 8 years we have 6,000 "Test Net" coin ANN topics  Cheesy
Get it ?
How many times have you all seen me ask some new coin shill why he didn't use test net ?
Why did he have to put it on Poloniex for profits to test it ?

Test Net ? your telling me.. LOL
I have been harping on that for years !

Guys, there is a problem.
What i am seeing is the solution is to go full ANON then go full anti-compliance.
Somehow in your minds you think this is the answer to the problem.. of adoption.

By the way Bitcoin already has a had a long term reputation of being a drugs & guns criminal coin thingy for profits on the web.. i know i have had pretty much every person i ever talked to on the street tell me that to my face.
A recent story in my news paper mentioned how the current financial guys admitted how they hide any involvement with Crypto from the existing FIAT system people.
..because it's regarded as scammy ass bullshit !

AND THAT IS FUCKING BITCOIN ..never mind pushing a far more anon styled coin.

You are all mostly in massive denial about the situation we are in.
And your half ass solution to criticism is to make things worse.

I am telling you all this because i don't think your efforts are working.
I am telling you the problem with anti-money laundering laws exist and that circumventing them is not a bright idea.
The govt's don't take too kindly to that sort of thing.. nor do they appreciate you failing to pay your taxes on the ROI's you brag about making off of the 6,000 "TestNet" Like penny stocks" "coins" you flog and defend here.. used by criminals to spread child porn or drugs or machine guns.

I am all for freedom but when the scale is tilted so far in favor of the criminals then ya we need to put in laws.
Not abolish them all..

Who is it benefiting from the lack of reg's and anon services or coins ?
Criminals.. from new scam coin pushers to ransomware to Dark market dirt bags.
And you all chant Free Market.. to pad your Poloniex wallets so you can count your ROI's.

Have some fucking class and think of the victims for fucks sakes.
Have some sympathy for the people burned by Gox or Cryptsy.. don't defend that shit by saying we don't need laws or ties to fiat etc.
Wrong.. we need the opposite and you will be saying it too once your coins vanish on an exchange and you show up here ASKING FOR THE POLICE to arrest some exchange staff.

The reality is you loiter around spewing bullshit for profits.
You don't actually care about adoption or we would be further along by now.

SAY what ever the fuck you all want.. your actions betray you though.
And the world sees it too !

Deliberately violating established criminal law is not going to further the crypto coin agenda.
Anti-money laundering laws were created for a reason people.. and it was not to stop your ROI's kidiot profiteers  Cheesy

FUD first & ask questions later™
PantminerS7
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December 14, 2016, 04:55:24 AM
 #83

So this "i hackkkkzord da steams" guy is also super pro-establishment and says the government is an all-knowing GOD that can not be fought, fooled or tricked.

Fine.

The 15 mentions/post of "spewing bullshit for profits" must be projecting his own actions of FUD'ing for profit. Why else FUD? The way he talks about others in this thread also implies that he's not here to convince anyone, either.
Spoetnik (OP)
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December 14, 2016, 08:44:08 AM
 #84

@PantminerS7
If you would like to address any specific part of what i said feel free to do so.

Your hinting i have some ulterior motive or secret agenda is bullshit.

Yeah i hacked cracked Steam so fucking what ? Jealous ?
It backed up a point i was making.. point being the crackers mentality.
I have spent half my life looking at walls looking for ways to exploit them.
I did not read about hackers on the news then strut around the web thinking i know things now.
I spent my time online DOING things that gave me real tangible experience.
..unlike the Monero idiots etc who showed up here with virtually no experience then made a shitcoin then spent the rest of the time shooting their mouth off like Earth greatest geniuses in human history leading the way into the future etc.

Take your leader of Monero.. "King" Risto.
He said his first coin was Monero.. so he spent i heard years ago around 882 BTC on them back when BTC was super high.
Since i think he spent far more.
Back when he was running around proclaiming BTC will be worth 1 million per coin.

Yup.. you are following the dick holster jiggling of a confessed mental patient with insane claims.

Whether "Secure & Untraceable" is true or not.. it will not stop them from printing it on the "Merch".

Anyway..  Grin
You are all free to bring up your own *relevant* past experience too.
..if you have any.

PS:

Monero is DEAD.

FUD first & ask questions later™
dinofelis
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December 14, 2016, 10:27:41 AM
 #85


The original idea of "backing" a currency is that whatever backs it, HAS INTRINSIC VALUE.  That is to say, it has a finite market price because people want to use it, and the market value doesn't derive from the fact that people think that they can sell it to someone else (in an infinite succession)

You seem to be making several reasonable observations here but then get them all tangled up and arrive at a slightly weird conclusion Wink Probably because - again - they're all notional, philosophical observations rather than analytical ones.

Intrinsic Value ?
Firstly, "Instrinsic value" is a slightly meaningless term since A: it means different things to different people and B: it implies that the "value" is a property of the monetary medium whereas if you spent 5 seconds studying a market depth chart you can see that it isn't - it's a projected property of its consumers and traders who all value the asset differently.

In fact, what I wanted to say is exactly what you say next:

Quote
A more useful way to look at it is to split all things into one of 2 types of value:

1. utility value (things that are acquired to be retained)
2. monetary value (things that are acquired to be exchanged)

The reason that’s useful is because it’s reasonably easy to delineate utility (product) markets from monetary ones, notwithstanding that there is sometimes an overlap as with precious metals.

You are right that instead of "intrinsic value" I should have used the words "utility value" ; that's what I meant with "intrinsic value".

Quote
The monetary premium - as you rightly point out - is the value that’s added to an item in excess of its utility value when it gets used as money. ( See this example where I had a go at quantifying it using funfair tokens for how huge it is). But what do you notice about this principle ? It is that a monetary medium is most efficient (most “perfect| if you like) when it has zero utility value.

Indeed, that's right too: because otherwise, you perturb the original "utility" market of the asset.  ("salting your potatoes becomes an expensive affair").

Quote
Thats because if it has any utility value at all then a finite amount of it will continuously go out of circulation. This concept is slightly counter-intuitive because many people see the utility value of precious metals for example as adding to their monetary value.

No, that's not the reason.  In fact, most assets with an utility value that also acquire monetary value, have MUCH LARGER monetary value than utility value, rendering their utility useless, because too expensive.

It also illustrates that the hopes of "backing" monetary value with "utility value" (which is what backing is all about) is a hopeless affair, because the extra monetary value (which is usually MUCH larger) is in any case not backed.

The exact example of this is gold.  Gold has a small utility value, and a huge monetary value.   The monetary value of gold is hence NOT backed by its "utility value".  Gold's monetary value is just as well "made out of thin air" as is the monetary value of a dollar bill, and that "thin air" is nothing else but the belief system I talked about earlier.

Quote
So a cryptocurrency is near-perfect money in that respect. But lets look at this in the context of your conclusion:

We agree, because a crypto currency (just as well as fiat in a bank account) is not backed by anything but the thin air of the belief system, and is NOT destroying the utility of some or other asset like salt, a metal or whatever that is going to become too expensive to be useful.


Quote
ALL of these are backed money (derivatives) that follow a chain of exchangeability or trust of the type I cited earlier and NONE of them involve trades which would have to interact with a blockchain even if that blockchain’s tokens formed the denomination for the trade.

Debt-backed assets are ALSO monetary assets, and it is true that as long as there is a provable 1-1 link with full possibility to redeem them, they have the same value as the debt they represent.  But not all monetary assets are debt certificates with a 1-1 redeemable link.  I would even say, that this kind of stuff is often just a bootstrap for a monetary asset to get started with the belief system, only to go to fractional banking and later, to release the redeeming all together.

That's exactly what happened to fiat money: first of all, it was just a redeemable 1-1 debt certificate for gold or silver ; later there was the joke of fractional banking, and in the end it was entirely released.

But not all monetary assets need to be "bootstrapped" by such a debt certificate.  Gold for instance, isn't.  Gold is not redeemable against something else.  Bitcoins either.  They are not a debt certificate.  So the "tracing back to exactly what debt it was" doesn't matter for this kind of monetary asset.

Quote
Notice that your account balance is denominated in blockchain tokens (say, BTC) and you can trade all day long without even touching the blockchain. But they are meaningless without the backing asset which gives them value.

What you are talking about here is the value of exchange IOU tokens, which you erroneously take for BTC, in the same way as you take bank account money erroneously for FED dollars, and in the same way as people took erroneously dollar bills for "amount of silver" and later "amount of gold".

That's what I talked about earlier: these are NEW monetary assets, which can be linked 1-1 to some other asset (monetary or not) ; then one can do fractional banking, and in the end, one can even release the link.

Maybe one day, "coinbase BTC" will have their existence entirely decoupled from the block chain bitcoins, and lead their life of their own.  They will be IOU tokens on coinbase which have nothing to do any more with bitcoin.  Like dollar bills are not redeemable any more against gold.

As long as you BELIEVE that coinbase tokens stand for 1-1 bitcoins, and as long as you believe that they are redeemable against real bitcoins on the block chain, coinbase tokens will be traded like bitcoins.

But this is because coinbase tokens don't have their own "belief system" and are not independent monetary assets, they are a debt-certificate based thing.  You think that if you have a coinbase token, that you hold a debt of coinbase to owe you a bitcoin (on the chain).


Quote
Why we need transparent blockchains
A cryptocurrency - being unbacked money - will always form the base tier in a complex, layered, trust based financial network. That network requires maximum transparency from its “base assets”, otherwise it will simply taint the entire coin supply since the bulk of the trading goes on using derivative tokens anyway (see exchanges, eCommerce systems, POS, you name it).

There are no "base assets" in a crypto currency.  The crypto coins themselves are the monetary asset, and they sustain their own recursive belief system.  The only reason you believe in the value of bitcoin is because you think that other people are willing to give value for bitcoin (and they do so because they also believe that).  They don't believe in anything they can redeem their bitcoins against (like you believe with your coinbase tokens).  So there is no "base asset" to refer to.  The coins are the base themselves.

The only thing people need to believe, is that the coins are created according to an accepted rule, and that transactions conserve the AMOUNT of coins (no double spending).  Which coin came from where doesn't matter here to sustain the belief system ; only the ability to verify the coin creation according to the accepted rule in the system, and the ability to verify the conservation of coins in transactions.

You don't need to know where what piece of gold was dug up to accept its monetary gold value.  You only need to know that it is genuine gold, and you know the laws of physics which tell you that one cannot "copy" gold and double-spend it ; and you accept that digging up gold is a fair way of putting it in circulation.


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December 14, 2016, 10:39:58 AM
 #86

Not so much when they form the basis of your entire valuation.

I'm starting to see where you're coming from.  You see crypto currencies as some value carriers between different exchanges, that is, it is a "transmission token" (in time and space) between "buying it on an exchange at date X" and "selling it on another exchange at date Y".  The "ripple of exchanges" in a way.  I fully agree that in such a case, anonymity on the block chain sounds weird, because both end points know about you.  It is just a "value vehicle in time and space" between exchanges. 

But I see exchanges rather as a kind of nuisance, which, for the moment, makes some kind of sense in crypto because of its infinitesimal adoption.  However, the idea is that one day, we will have a closed monetary circle in crypto: you work and get crypto ; you spend with your crypto, and your employer obtains crypto against the goods he produced and you bought. 

Exchanges then are only on the boundaries of monetary cycles, such as when you need to exchange dollars for euros when you travel from New York to Paris ; but most of the dollars run in closed circles, and exchanges are only "boundary effects".

Then, exchanges are not the "valuation" of crypto ; rather, merchants and employees are, when they set prices buying goods in stores, and when they negociate their pay in crypto.
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December 14, 2016, 11:34:35 AM
 #87

The problem with all anon coins is that, in fact, this coins cant be used for anonymization because of very low circulation . Coin should be widespread to be usable in anonymization. It is a prerequisite. And anon coins will not be widespread coz this feature is not needed for most users. Anonymization is not the right feature to be used as growth driver.  So it is closed circle.
So , I'm afraid that it will be not monero for  "... you work and get crypto ; you spend with your crypto, and your employer obtains crypto..."

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December 14, 2016, 12:29:03 PM
 #88


the idea is that one day, we will have a closed monetary circle in crypto: you work and get crypto ; you spend with your crypto, and your employer obtains crypto against the goods he produced and you bought

Yes, I realised that many people hold this vision.

But most have not spent 30 years architecting, coding and maintaining the actual systems that implement a commercial transacting environment such as accounting, ERPs, eCommerce and retail and so have the luxury of taking a making a purely symbolic appraisal of the future.

In particular, they don't make any distinction between a monetary denomination and a monetary medium. When you do take those into account, saying that "Monero has great anonymity" is like saying the "Pound Sterling is a great currency because it's printed on really strong paper". Thats because Monero's privacy technology is not a monetary property - it's technology property of that blockchain's transacting medium. Another reason why it is a huge error to couple priorities from the record-keeping archetype to the that which defines the monetary base since - as I've already pointed out - they are in direct conflict.

The assumption amongst BTC talking heads is usually that denomination and medium will be one and the same thing, but that assumption is wild. Lets, for example, examine your utopian dream where "everything" is denominated in crypto.

There is almost no aspect of the modern commercial infrastructure that the blockchain could remotely support. Nor is it designed to support trading anyway - it's job is to define and maintain a monetary reserve. If you go to a supermarket in the 22nd century, you won't be doing blockchain transactions. If you get paid by your employer, it may be in Monero's but they won't be sending your money to a blockchain address. If invest in pension bonds monthy, your bonds may be denominated in Moneros but it won't be held in a blockchain address. The financial infrastructure will continue to use what it always uses - a system of commercial account management and managed credit since that is far more efficient than any blockchain could ever support. Pure numbers are simply far faster, far more flexible and far more scaleable than any blockchain.

Sure, monetarily, things may be improved because you'd have a kind of gold standard where the entire economic liquidity was backed by blockchain tokens, but the activity would not actually be carried out ON the blockchain and anyone that thinks it will is delusional. You stand at a checkout queue. Your cornflakes get checked through on the other guy's bill. The cashier has to reverse it off his bill and put it onto your, meanwhile dock his store-points, qualify you for a discount threshold and let you pay with cash instead of credit. No blockchain gets a lookin at the pointy end of commerce.

The reason I brought up exchanges wasn't to make an appraisal of cryptocurrency exchanges, it was to demonstrate how quickly real commercial activity moves out of the realm of the blockchain - even though it may continue to be denominated in terms of blockchain tokens. In a mature crypto economy, only a tiny proportion - miniscule, 2-3% if you're lucky - of the actual liquidity would be co-incidental with blockchain tokens. The rest is second order monetary media (see tiers 1 upwards above) where record-keeping archetypal priorities are in force.

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December 14, 2016, 12:34:53 PM
 #89

The problem with all anon coins is that, in fact, this coins cant be used for anonymization because of very low circulation . Coin should be widespread to be usable in anonymization. It is a prerequisite. And anon coins will not be widespread coz this feature is not needed for most users.

I'm not sure about that.  I think most people want some privacy and discreteness about their financial whereabouts.  Transparent ledgers such as bitcoin are way, way too transparent.  Again, we're not talking about "hiding from the NSA".  We're talking about Joe not finding out I gave some money to Mary.  

In fact the problem of too small an anonymity set solves itself: from the moment the economy is closed, it is also large enough for the anonymity set to be big enough.  A prerequisite for this is that the anonymity feature is compulsory.  This is what I don't like about zcash (amongst others).

If Joe, the bar keeper, and Mary, my friend, are coin users, that means that the user base is big enough to be anonymous enough so that my privacy is protected, and that Joe doesn't immediately see that the money he paid me for me repairing the toilets in his bar, was also the birthday present for Mary.  Even with an anonymity set of a few thousand users, that's good enough.

Quote
Anonymization is not the right feature to be used as growth driver.  So it is closed circle.
So , I'm afraid that it will be not monero for  "... you work and get crypto ; you spend with your crypto, and your employer obtains crypto..."

I don't know.  IF EVER I were to accept any crypto so that I work for it and can spend it, for sure it would have to be anonymous, style monero, zcash, dash or whatever, or I wouldn't even consider using it that way.  No way that the people that pay me, and the people I spend money on, can find out what I did, where I got the money from, and where I spent it.  Like now, people don't know this, and that's what I want.

I would never use a crypto like bitcoin the way I like to use fiat.  It has way to little privacy.

(and again, I'm not talking about doing evil things)


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December 14, 2016, 01:16:37 PM
Last edit: December 14, 2016, 01:33:05 PM by toknormal
 #90


IF EVER I were to accept any crypto so that I work for it and can spend it, for sure it would have to be anonymous, style monero, zcash, dash or whatever

Those coin's "anonymity" properties unfortunately are not independent of transacting medium and since 95% of commercial activity takes place off-chain (e.g. witness last month's 14 million Moneros) you'd be out of luck. So what you actually mean is you'd only only accept blockchain transactions which as we've seen, barely feature in the commercial trading realm and will only do so less as the crypto-economy grows.

The anonymity characteristics of the particular particular transacting medium you're using would have far more to say than the blockchain properties and I wouldn't hold my breath for a 1000-employee payroll to get done on an obscured chain Wink
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December 14, 2016, 01:34:24 PM
Last edit: December 14, 2016, 01:45:58 PM by dinofelis
 #91


the idea is that one day, we will have a closed monetary circle in crypto: you work and get crypto ; you spend with your crypto, and your employer obtains crypto against the goods he produced and you bought

Yes, I realised that many people hold this vision.

But most have not spent 30 years architecting, coding and maintaining the actual systems that implement a commercial transacting environment such as accounting, ERPs, eCommerce and retail and so have the luxury of taking a making a purely symbolic appraisal of the future.

In particular, they don't make any distinction between a monetary denomination and a monetary medium. When you do take those into account, saying that "Monero has great anonymity" is like saying the "Pound Sterling is a great currency because it's printed on really strong paper". Thats because Monero's privacy technology is not a monetary property - it's technology property of that blockchain's transacting medium. Another reason why it is a huge error to couple priorities from the record-keeping archetype to the that which defines the monetary base since - as I've already pointed out - they are in direct conflict.

They aren't, but this is because you still see crypto as a "base currency" on top of which a whole other accountancy will be built.  I agree with you that if that's the case, then anonymity features of a crypto are not much needed.  They are then like central bank money.

However, if the idea is to build a whole banking system on top of crypto, then I don't even see the point in crypto.  The point of crypto was exactly to do away with that.  And then, what you call the "monetary denomination" (which is nothing else but the "backing base") and the monetary medium is exactly the same, namely a token on the block chain, which is also the ledger, the means of payment, and the rest of the banking system.

And then, yes, it does matter, because the protocol and the block chain are ALSO the bank, the credit card, the means of payment and everything else.  You are absolutely right that privacy technology is not a monetary property.  But it is the property of a banking relationship.  And as in our case of crypto, the protocol is ALSO the banking relationship, it has to be included.

Quote
The assumption amongst BTC talking heads is usually that denomination and medium will be one and the same thing, but that assumption is wild. Lets, for example, examine your utopian dream where "everything" is denominated in crypto.

No, it is essential.  Unless you see crypto as a kind of secondary monetary asset for traders.  
If you take away the idea that crypto is there to do banking without banks, crypto loses its meaning and reason-d'être.  You may very well be right, that crypto will never be that.  But in that case, crypto will simply disappear in the long run, as it doesn't have any sensible economic function, and was just a hyped toy of a small crowd of traders.

Quote
There is almost no aspect of the modern commercial infrastructure that the blockchain could remotely support.

I don't agree with that.  But if you are right, then forget about crypto immediately.  It is then just a funny hype that will fade away.
The reason I don't agree with that, is that whatever a block chain can support is essentially given by technical limitations like band width, storage space and processing power - these things grow over time (unless there are hard limits inside the protocol, like bitcoin, which make it indeed impossible to support unbound growth, but that's a design error, not an impossibility).
A 10 000 fold growth in these things means that bitcoin like chains are capable of supporting VISA transactions worldwide.  According to Moore's law, that's about 20 years from now.

Quote
Nor is it designed to support trading anyway - it's job is to define and maintain a monetary reserve. If you go to a supermarket in the 22nd century, you won't be doing blockchain transactions. If you get paid by your employer, it may be in Monero's but they won't be sending your money to a blockchain address. If invest in pension bonds monthy, your bonds may be denominated in Moneros but it won't be held in a blockchain address.

I think that is a ridiculous idea, because you don't need any bloody crypto to have a "base monetary reserve".  If you want to build a whole banking system on top of bitcoin, you can just as well keep with fiat, it is the same.  No need for bitcoin as a "reserve" for fiat, no more than you need "gold" as a reserve for fiat.

Crypto as an electricity-wasting alternative for central bank gold is totally ridiculous.  It will never work.  If crypto is to live, it is to replace banks, not to build banks on top of it.  Because banks don't need any "foundation" to build upon.

If I get paid in Monero, it will of course be on a block chain, or I won't be paid in Monero, but in whatever fiat one will pay me in.

Again, crypto has no meaning if the idea is to build banking on top of it, as it was meant to replace banking.  If it can't or won't do what it was designed for, then it simply has no reason to exist.

That said, there may well be one day "central bank crypto" but that will be a private central bank block chain, not bitcoin or whatever other grassroots chain, and hard forks will be issued the same way that central bank governors decide on policy change.  It would just be a kind of bookkeeping device, that has in fact nothing to do with crypto as it was meant.
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December 14, 2016, 01:41:02 PM
 #92


IF EVER I were to accept any crypto so that I work for it and can spend it, for sure it would have to be anonymous, style monero, zcash, dash or whatever

Those coin's "anonymity" properties unfortunately are not independent of transacting medium and since 95% of commercial activity takes place off-chain.

There is not much "commercial activity taking place off chain".  There are people trading exchange IOU against one another, which are, indeed, denominated in crypto, but that is not "commercial activity".  There is in fact very little ACTUAL commercial activity using crypto (that is, buying/selling stuff with crypto other than other monetary assets) and I'm pretty much sure that most of that genuine part of crypto use is on-chain.  This is the only interesting part of crypto, small as it is.

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December 14, 2016, 02:52:48 PM
 #93

dinofelis,

In situation when monero already have the same market volume as bitcoin, same liquidity and etc it would be interesting to point out that monero is more anonimous then bitcoin. And it is really great. And it is really advantage. 
But in conditions where bitcoin is already widely distributed someone offers to use another coin and as the argument he says that it is technically more anonymous then bitcoin.. "Thats very cool" most ppl will answer, continue using bitcoin coz strongly anonymity is not the main thing for them.
Privacy you are talking can be achieved in a few easy steps using bitcoin.
(Joe will have to do quite complex work to find out you gave some money to Mary.)
And those for whom anonymity is important will not use it coz new coin does not provide anonymity while used only by few ppl.
Thats what i mean when said that "Anonymization is not the right feature to be used as growth driver."
 

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December 14, 2016, 03:00:48 PM
 #94



If ANON was needed so badly why did the dev's not submit the idea to the Bitcoin core dev's foundation etc ?
Was it because they knew it would be rejected ?


Exactly. Bitcoin will never have anonymity feature. that is why coins as Monero brought something to the Crypto table.

It didnt bring anything? Its just a cryptonote clone 1:1 with some edits from people who dont know what they're doing??
And yeah, without a GUI

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December 14, 2016, 04:49:11 PM
 #95

So we bash Monero, drop the price and then buy in? You gonna tell us when you buy?
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December 14, 2016, 05:25:21 PM
 #96


Monero is dead.




Monero is DEAD.




Hearing this i remember words of BipCoin developer. https://bipcoin.org
He said they started BipCoin, that same as Monero  base on CryptoNote, and because troubles gave up on it next day. After a month or so they planed to give it another try and they checked it again and saw people still mine it and it normally works.

Seems cryptos like Monero or BipCoin have just hard time dying.

 


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December 14, 2016, 07:11:35 PM
Last edit: December 14, 2016, 10:52:07 PM by Spoetnik
 #97

So we bash Monero, drop the price and then buy in? You gonna tell us when you buy?

You forgot about the creating a brand new account here part of it. (like the dummy account you made)
..i have seen many on this topic alone.  Cheesy

People i tried to start yet another Monero topic because i was thinking of why they did not push to get ANON into Bitcoin.
I posted because of that angle of things.. but !
There is clearly a lot more to it and any discussion is fine with me. (it is related)

Dark Market usage for example creeps into the discussion obviously.
And i want to remind you guys that there is NO Free Market.
Saying you are having *Some* success hiding from the current FIAT laws does not mean you are operating in a true lawless environment.

Dark Market users for example can & do regularly get arrested.
Because there *IS* laws.
Like the anti-money laundering laws (why they collect your ID etc)
They are here and they are in effect.. you have ZERO wiggle room to chant free market like a rebel.
I warned you all loudly they were going to do this and service after service gradually implemented laws.
I told you so !

Plugging your ears like a child and chanting our anon coin is working is a load of bullshit.
If they want your ass bad enough they will have it !
"Secure & Untraceable" printed on the Monero hoodies they sell are bullshit.

And your illusion that you HAVE a Free Market is a crock of shit !

You all mostly caw like crows in compete denial as you hand over your picture fucking ID.
You loiter around defending criminals and their services while handing your info to Coinbase or Cryptsy or Poloniex etc.
So you can make money off of ICO's the very definition of centralization.

No matter which way you look at it you guys are a load of fucking bullshit.. saying one thing then doing the opposite

..for money (real money cash fiat dollars $$$)

(while *pretending* to be Crypto "Currency" supporters)

The reality is if you were a supporter you would be after main stream adoption not catering to criminals.
Your push is in the opposite direction of adoption.
Hence it is not your goal in the first place.

Common sense would tell any idiot that making a coin more compliant with authorities would yield adoption.
Yet you are doing the exact opposite.

While you count your ROI'z accusing me of profiteering over & over  Cheesy

FUD first & ask questions later™
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December 15, 2016, 05:37:43 AM
 #98

dinofelis,

In situation when monero already have the same market volume as bitcoin, same liquidity and etc it would be interesting to point out that monero is more anonimous then bitcoin. And it is really great. And it is really advantage. 
But in conditions where bitcoin is already widely distributed someone offers to use another coin and as the argument he says that it is technically more anonymous then bitcoin.. "Thats very cool" most ppl will answer, continue using bitcoin coz strongly anonymity is not the main thing for them.

I would think that both monero and bitcoin are still in a kind of infinitesimal infancy before these kinds of considerations even take place.  I mean, both are essentially only used by a very small club.  Yes, bitcoin is at this moment about 100 times larger than monero if we look at volume and market cap, but this is "almost nothing" versus "100 times almost nothing".  It is not that bitcoin has already, say, 40% of the money market cap, and monero is a newcomer.  Then I would agree that there is a dominant market player.  For the moment, bitcoin is in the "parts-per-million" region of the money market, and monero is 100 times smaller yet.  There are few chances that I will be confronted with the Joe-plumber-Mary problem, so it seems that this anonymity doesn't matter.

Quote
Privacy you are talking can be achieved in a few easy steps using bitcoin.
(Joe will have to do quite complex work to find out you gave some money to Mary.)

It's more difficult than you think.  I agree with you that if Joe gave me an amount of money, and then I want to transfer that amount of money to Mary, I can do 20 transactions in between, which means I have to pay 20 fees and wait many times 10 minutes.  But if I want to give another amount to Mary, there are change addresses that will get mixed in, which may combine with other pieces of information. 
Or I can use a mixer.  And we're back to "anonymity".

Quote
And those for whom anonymity is important will not use it coz new coin does not provide anonymity while used only by few ppl.
Thats what i mean when said that "Anonymization is not the right feature to be used as growth driver."

My point is that "people" didn't chose yet.  By far most people didn't adopt, nor bitcoin, nor monero.  The market shares aren't established yet.  At all.  Both are still at a ridiculously small market share.  Bitcoin cannot grow much any more by block chain limitations.  Bitcoin, at this point, cannot handle yet another factor of 100 in transaction numbers.  Monero can, obviously.  Now, it can very well be that people in the bitcoin world will finally solve their issues, but in the mean time, they will be reaching "maturity", while the other one has all the possibilities to grow and catch up.

I'm not saying that that will happen.  My fear is rather that in a few years, the crypto hype will more or less be over, because apart from gamblers and geeks, it doesn't really catch on in the NORMAL economy.  At which point, again, anonymity or not doesn't matter.  But if crypto is to go somewhere, it is still in its smallest possible infancy, and one cannot yet say that there is a market domination by one or another, as all of them, including bitcoin, have infinitesimally small market shares.


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December 15, 2016, 06:29:41 AM
 #99

I see again so much FUD on Monero "just on time" before GUIs and Ring CT official releases. Lots of altcoin and grandpa btc holders shit their pants.
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December 15, 2016, 08:47:42 AM
 #100

I see again so much FUD on Monero "just on time" before GUIs and Ring CT official releases. Lots of altcoin and grandpa btc holders shit their pants.

Ok "member"  Cheesy

Yup you caught me.. i am sooooo jealous of your ROI'z  Cry

Oh and if you would like to address any point i made i will be around.

..crying FUD for bucks $$$ much noob ?


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