A Heroin Store

[Timo Y]

As a side note, being brand new on this forum, I'm kind of uncomfortable with topics discussing how to use bitcoins to bypass the law. The fact that the law is good or not is debatable but completely unrelated with bitcoin.

The discussions here are not so much about bypassing law but more about bypassing government.

I don't know if you have already noticed, but most people on this forum are some flavour of libertarian. They see Bitcoin as an ideal tool to achieve more independence from a coercive government, or even to make government obsolete altogether.  Ideological considerations are thus not completely unrelated with bitcoin.

Most libertarians will agree with you that a "moral common ground" exists, most will agree with you that courts of law are necessary, the only difference is that they think people who associate with one another should arrive at the moral common ground voluntarily, rather than having an arbitrary moralily forced upon them by a central authority.

The heroin store idea was more of a libertarian thought experiment than a serious proposal.

If somebody started discussing a CP store on this forum they would a) very quickly get a really bad reputation and b) probably get banned by the admins.

So why not the same reaction to somebody who discusses a heroin store? Because CP is coercive and selling heroin to adults isn't.

[1714138988]

1714138988

[ploum]

Your distinction between child porn and drug selling is based on your own moral. (and I personally agree with it). But it is not the distinction done by the laws. (both of them are crimes and punished by prison)

You say that a lot of people are libertarian (I'm myself somewhat libertarian but I don't think it does matter). That doesn't mean that all of them are nor that bitcoin is a libertarian tool. It could be used by libertarian. So what ? Was it the intended goal at the beginning ?  It's just like saying Linux is anti-Windows. Linux is used by anti-microsoft people but it doesn't mean that it's the goal (and annoying anti-windows people are quickly banned from Linux forum, even if they don't say anything bad regarding the law. In your case, it's worse).

Trust me : never try two revolutions at the same time, never mix revolutions. Either you choose bitcoin, either you choose libertarianism, but mixing both at the same time is a recipe for failure. Just like communist people in a free software community.

So, I believe that bitcoin forum's moderator should choose :

1) Bitcoin is an economic/software experiment only. Discussing related politcs is of course good thing but everything should respect the law : no money laundering, no drug, no child porn. Remember : it's the image you give to any external viewer seeking information about bitcoin !  Do you thing that average Joe would trust a bunch of anarchist Junkies to do anything related with their money ?

2) Bitcoin is a libertarian/anarchist project. Your message then makes sense. The image you give also makes sense. But then, it should be advertized from the start so innocent people like me will know what to expect and assume that they are putting their foot in some trouble waters…

[Anonymous]

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

Portugal, which in 2001 became the first European country to officially abolish all criminal penalties for personal possession of drugs, including marijuana, cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine

The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.]The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

The evidence speaks for itself.

It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong.  ~Voltaire

[davout]

Your distinction between child porn and drug selling is based on your own moral. (and I personally agree with it). But it is not the distinction done by the laws. (both of them are crimes and punished by prison)

Shrödinger's cat thought experiment was such a shame, poisoning a cat is cruel and probably illegal in some countries.

Trust me : never try two revolutions at the same time, never mix revolutions. Either you choose bitcoin, either you choose libertarianism, but mixing both at the same time is a recipe for failure.

Wise wisdom is wise.

Just like communist people in a free software community.

Si vous avez compris cette phrase, ne prenez pas la route.

So, I believe that bitcoin forum's moderator should choose :

1) Bitcoin is an economic/software experiment only. Discussing related politcs is of course good thing but everything should respect the law : no money laundering, no drug, no child porn. Remember : it's the image you give to any external viewer seeking information about bitcoin !  Do you thing that average Joe would trust a bunch of anarchist Junkies to do anything related with their money ?

The average Joe probably laughed when told the earth wasn't flat.

2) Bitcoin is a libertarian/anarchist project. Your message then makes sense. The image you give also makes sense. But then, it should be advertized from the start so innocent people like me will know what to expect and assume that they are putting their foot in some trouble waters…

Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency project kthxbye =)

[Timo Y]

Trust me : never try two revolutions at the same time, never mix revolutions. Either you choose bitcoin, either you choose libertarianism, but mixing both at the same time is a recipe for failure. Just like communist people in a free software community.

The current Bitcoin community and the Bitcoin protocol are two distinct developments.  

The Bitcoin protocol is just a tool.

It just so happens that at this early stage it's been enthusiastically embraced by libertarians because it lends itself particularly well to further their goals.

But that doesn't mean that other communities will not discover Bitcoin as way to fulfil their particular needs.

There is no reason that multiple communities/philosophies cannot coexist, even if they use the same tool.

Some people on this forum have already self-identified as anarcho-communist.

1) Bitcoin is an economic/software experiment only. Discussing related politcs is of course good thing but everything should respect the law : no money laundering, no drug, no child porn. Remember : it's the image you give to any external viewer seeking information about bitcoin !  Do you thing that average Joe would trust a bunch of anarchist Junkies to do anything related with their money ?

The average Joe will trust whatever most of his friends use, or whatever is endorsed by mainstream media. He doesn't know or care who is behind Bitcoin. If the average Joe discovers that Bitcoin is more convenient to use than other e-currencies, the average Joe will start using Bitcoin.

Similar example: Jimmy Wales calls himself "Objectivist to the core". Does the average Wikipedia user care about this? Does the average Wikipedia user even know what an Objectivist is? Is a non-Ojectivist user discouraged from using Wikipedia because of this? No.

As for respecting the law, discussing the theory of illegal actions is not illegal in itself, otherwise crime novels would be illegal.

2) Bitcoin is a libertarian/anarchist project. Your message then makes sense. The image you give also makes sense. But then, it should be advertized from the start so innocent people like me will know what to expect and assume that they are putting their foot in some trouble waters…

As I said, Bitcoin is just a tool.

If you think that the message on this website is too extreme for your customers, then why not do some PR work yourself, on your own Bitcoin-accepting website?

The more diverse the bitcoin economy, the better...

[Bruce Wagner]

Ok.  So what was the URL for the wiki page again for the, "How To Start your Own Bitcoin Pot Delivery Service"...?

I happen to know (yes, I have friends who know people), that in New York City at least...  It's not about customers "trusting" the pot man.   It's about the pot man trusting the customers.    You cannot buy from him unless you are either  (1) a long-standing known customer  or  (2) referred personally, and vouched for, by a long-standing customer.   Even then, they are hesitant to take on new customers.   After that, it's just a phone call....  Within 20 minutes, there's a man in your kitchen...  like the Avon Lady... but without the makeup.

That's how it works here.

I really can't see how Bitcoin could improve their business model in any way tho.   They have to deliver the product somehow anyway...  so why not pick up the cash at the same time.

Being anonymous?  No.  Protecting their anonymity by using a drop-spot is not a realistic option for many reasons.    First, it's Manhattan.  There are no secret spots.   Second, who the h*ll would want to go out into the cold and find their weed under a rock in central park...... when they could just have the pot man describing all the new varieties in their kitchen...  no.  It's not gonna happen.   People are far too lazy.   We New Yorkers expect everything delivered.    Mail it?   No way!    When I could have it here within 10-30 minutes.  Nope.

So, you see, Bitcoin offers no advantages to the way it's done now.   The only thing it could do, is allow for an online store that sells randomly to any tom, dick, or harry who visits that page.   And then, there's NO WAY they won't be investigated and shut down pronto!

Sending drugs to random addresses?  Are you insane?!   Why not just mail out sales brochures to the DEA's offices while you're at it!?   That's the nuttiest idea I've EVER heard.  I understand the 50/50 probability math....  But have the CONSEQUENCES of such an action ever even occurred to you!?   It would make national headlines.... until you were locked up... and then the nation would cheer!   The media would dub you "The Heroin Mailer".   Likely, they would consider the mailing of drugs to random addresses to be a crime 10 times WORSE than simply selling it to paying customers.

[bitcoinex]

Bruce, you do not even imagine how many people want to try heroin or weeds, but are afraid to communicate with these 'Avon Ladies'

[nanaimogold]

Yes, the world is not a reflection of New York City. Many people seek mail order service just to avoid the danger of associating with the park darkies.

Bruce might find it interesting to look into "the cartoon network". Using VoIP in hotel rooms, customer databases, bicycle couriers, custom packaging, their own trucking and customs brokers, these guys peddled weed in Manhattan for years before the cops got wise. One Quebecois fellow, Cusson, is still in jail, the first man ever convicted under new laws as operating a continuing criminal enterprise.

Interesting to note; he was undone by his sloppy cell phone habits.

But as I said above, Manhattan in no way is an example of the rest of the world.

[Timo Y]

 
Second, who the h*ll would want to go out into the cold and find their weed under a rock in central park......

The "uncool" people who don't have the "right" friends?

[Anonymous]

Geocaching and bitcoin ftw.

[Bruce Wagner]

OK.  I suppose you guys might be right.  But I'm from Ohio originally.   And I can tell you, it works the same way in Columbus Ohio as it does here.    It's a friends of friends networking business,  with in-home sales reps.   

Facebook grew by friends of friends...   

But for the isolated, with no friends who smoke...  I guess.   But I don't see "under a rock " being very practical.    And mailing it seems extremely dangerous. 

[Vinnie]

OK.  I suppose you guys might be right.  But I'm from Ohio originally.   And I can tell you, it works the same way in Columbus Ohio as it does here.    It's a friends of friends networking business,  with in-home sales reps.   

In Portland it's a god damn cottage industry. I go for walks in the evening sometimes and smell soon to be harvested crops in the neighborhood. Lost your job? Grow pot until you find another one. B.C. bud drives the market here, but anyone with a little will can and will set up their own garden and sell it through a friend. It's all very civil. There's a culture of do's and don'ts, etiquette, etc. Don't ask too many questions, if you're a new customer you need a friend to introduce you, don't try to be a wannabe dealer by marking up dub sacks that you bought at retail prices. Hook up your friends, etc. I'm not a participant, but absolutely love to peak in on the market from time to time just to watch.

I've heard heroin dealing is actually moving in this direction, too, with friendly and safe door to door service, referral incentives, etc. A bunch of Mexicans from the same region are making a family businesses out of it and its threatening to disrupt traditional street dealing. I'll have to dig up the link.

[Vinnie]

LA Times - A lethal business model targets Middle America

Analysis from John Robb at Global Guerrillas

That said, face to face cash transactions are probably the best way to conduct business on the retail end, in my opinion. It's more anonymous than bitcoin and I see too many problems with mailing most drugs and geocaching is way to inconvenient. Wholesale transactions to retailers might be an option. It would cut down on the amount of cash lying around. There are already very expensive ways to launder and route money through the traditional banking system and a digital currency can out compete such methods on both price and ease of transaction. I imagine drug dealers will be late adopters, though, as they probably already have invested a lot of trust into the networks they utilize for procurement and payment.

/speculation

[MoonShadow]

That said, face to face cash transactions are probably the best way to conduct business on the retail end, in my opinion. It's more anonymous than bitcoin and I see too many problems with mailing most drugs and geocaching is way to inconvenient. Wholesale transactions to retailers might be an option. It would cut down on the amount of cash lying around. There are already very expensive ways to launder and route money through the traditional banking system and a digital currency can out compete such methods on both price and ease of transaction. I imagine drug dealers will be late adopters, though, as they probably already have invested a lot of trust into the networks they utilize for procurement and payment.

/speculation

I disagree.  I think that a lot of the young dealers are very social network savvy already, and bitcoin adds advantages that even cash in hand cannot provide.  Cash is only anonymous after the fact; if the deal is being observed, such as the case that one of your regulars has been pinched and cut a deal to trade your ass for his own, the dealer loses his product, money and freedom and the cash is used as evidence against him.  If a savvy dealer insists upon bitcoin from all his clients, the client need not be on his person/phone that can be nabbed, but can be a bitcoind running in a foreign country.  That may not prevent the cops from taking it or using it as evidence against the dealer, but it will certianly make it more work, and people who work in the legal system are just as lazy as any other field.  At a minimum, it would require that the cops get a court order to force the dealer to divulge his passwords.  Meanwhile giving a trusted associate the time to move the funds to another account that is not on the same server and therefore completely untraceable.

Using bitcoin in an in person transaction such as this could limit the dealers capital risk exposure by half, because only the physical product is subject to confiscation at the event, so long as the cops are interested in getting the dealer for dealing and not simply possesion with intent.  Ultimately this would reduce the dealers' legal risk exposure because if the cops can no longer get the money also, there is no longer an economic incentive for the cops to do so, and if they let the deal go down using bitcoin, the dealer still got his end of the deal even if he got pinched.

[teppy]

The original idea was one where all transactions are conducted over a website only accessible via Tor. This part has been viable for years - it's always the money part that makes it risky for both the seller and the buyer.

The parts involving mail and double-sending drugs are ways to make the business scale, and make it work globally. They give plausible deniability to those receiving drugs.

I see lots of comments in this thread that "it would never work" and "the feds will come after you", but nothing detailing a specific way that they would detect who was mailing the drugs or running the business. The closest anyone came was Babylon, who suggested that the police might stake out all mailboxes in the area the packages came from, but that 's easily diffused: Locating the business in New York City, with 100k(?) public mailboxes would do the trick, or using common packaging like business envelopes.

(And to those that don't understand the concept of a thought experiment: No, I'm not actually planning to start a heroin store.)

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

The original idea was one where all transactions are conducted over a website only accessible via Tor. This part has been viable for years - it's always the money part that makes it risky for both the seller and the buyer.

The parts involving mail and double-sending drugs are ways to make the business scale, and make it work globally. They give plausible deniability to those receiving drugs.

I see lots of comments in this thread that "it would never work" and "the feds will come after you", but nothing detailing a specific way that they would detect who was mailing the drugs or running the business. The closest anyone came was Babylon, who suggested that the police might stake out all mailboxes in the area the packages came from, but that 's easily diffused: Locating the business in New York City, with 100k(?) public mailboxes would do the trick, or using common packaging like business envelopes.

(And to those that don't understand the concept of a thought experiment: No, I'm not actually planning to start a heroin store.)

Bullshit.

Contrary to bitcoins, which are virtual and are only information bits, It is quite easy to track any physical evidence.
There are millions of possible methods using which any "heroin store" or other drug store can be tracked.

Let me just point out a few which came to my mind just now. This is surely only tiny part of what FBI/CIA/Whatever can use to track down location of the drug store.

1. Analysing paper type used in packaging the packages - where it was bought, where was it produced. It can probably narrow down the search to s section of country (state or land).
2. Analysing different residues that exist in the paper due to its previous location. Such residues may include :
- Dust from special type of soil existing only in certain territory
- Pollens from certain types of plants that exist only in a certain area, or have greatest concentration in certain area
- Humidity of the paper -can help narrow the search if the drug store is near water or far from water
- Chemicals in the paper (can narrow the search if drug store is located in a city/district with chemical plant, certain type of city etc)
3. Analyse organic residues from the person doing packaging & their DNA
4. Analyse the drugs themselves - repeat everything you have done with paper to the drugs & more.

Just the few methods above will probably be enough to narrow down the search to a small district of a city, or just few blocks... If not, then probably some additional, beter methods exist.

----
Of course i realise that if you would be extremely, (or actually: INSANELY) careful, pack all stuff underwater to avoid polluting, buy your paper in another country, work in latex gloves all the time, use mailboxes in a different random city each time etc, then perhaps you could successfully stay anonymous for few years or something... But sooner or later you will make a mistake, because that's how human brain works. It always makes some number of mistakes, doesn't matter how hard you try.

And when you make the one fatal mistake, FBI/CIA/CSI will get you.

[Bruce Wagner]

Maybe such a store will become viable and sustainable once we have electronic digital heroin. 

[Vinnie]

Fuck. I could really use some heroin right now.

[ploum]

Maybe such a store will become viable and sustainable once we have electronic digital heroin. 

It already exists and it's free. It's called Facebook.

[Anonymous]

99% of the worlds cash money has traces of cocaine on it. Send bitcoins to the madhatter and get cocaine in return.