A Heroin Store

[gigabytecoin]

Teppy, what a brilliant idea! Just for the theoretical approach of course!
I think a better concept would be to leave out the official mail system all together. There are just too many ways to get caught once you expand your business.  What you need is a bitcoin operated anonymous delivery-service. Of couse to operate a secret mail service is very dangerous for the postman. So the concept would be that the postman delivers the packet to a secret spot and never meets the recipient in person.
The heroin shop would need a website running on freenet or i2p of course - like the postal service.
Once the packet is placed on the secret spot, you will get the info - could be gps-coordinates - or some advanced app on your iphone.

Secret mail service = instant terrorist threat = no go.

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[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Teppy, what a brilliant idea! Just for the theoretical approach of course!
(...)Once the packet is placed on the secret spot, you will get the info - could be gps-coordinates - or some advanced app on your iphone.

Secret mail service = instant terrorist threat = no go.

Absolutely.

The only viable option is GPS geocaching. Everything else is easily traceable.
Using normal mail, there is 99,9% probabilty you will be caught sooner or later.

Actually, anything physical (leaving physical traces) or involving third person is easily traceable, because you only need to find weak link in the chain to find the seller. People are usually the weakest links.

I hope silkroad realizes this, because if he doesn't switch to GPS geocaching-only, sooner or later he will be caught.

[lolanonlol]

Mail is very safe. I know drug vendors who have sent mail for over ten years and are still not busted. If mail was so easy to trace the unibomber would have been arrested by being traced through the mail instead of his brother pointing in his direction. If you send mail from a post office you are an idiot. You can send mail from any of the blue drop boxes. This is more or less the same thing as a dead drop. You can also send mail from ANYONES mail box, just sneak it in their box with outgoing mail shortly before the mail man comes. It is very safe to send mail.

[TiagoTiago]

Not all places got those boxes

[MoonShadow]

Secret mail service = instant terrorist threat = no go.

Such a thing does exist, but it happens to be pretty expensive.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Mail is very safe. I know drug vendors who have sent mail for over ten years and are still not busted. If mail was so easy to trace the unibomber would have been arrested by being traced through the mail instead of his brother pointing in his direction. If you send mail from a post office you are an idiot. You can send mail from any of the blue drop boxes. This is more or less the same thing as a dead drop. You can also send mail from ANYONES mail box, just sneak it in their box with outgoing mail shortly before the mail man comes. It is very safe to send mail.

Well, even if you are right, it's only safe for the seller.
It is nowhere near safe for the buyer.

The problem is, you never know if you aren't buying from a FBI/CIA agent.
GPS geocaching would be a nice way to at least partially fix this inconvenience.

[TiagoTiago]

Geocaching has pretty much the same risks for a buyer regarding being vaught in flagrant(sp?) where buying drugs is illegal, the cops could pretty much just as easilly stake out on random coordinates as they can on a street corner or a landmark on a park.

[mewantsbitcoins]

Hello everyone!

I am not into drugs, but I like puzzles, especially the ones that involve people. Here's my hypothetical scenario.
There is an initial investment and some risk you are never going to see it, but I assume this kind of business is quite profitable so it shouldn't be a problem. I read through this thread and the one about silk road. I think that delivery to real addresses is the weak point. But this is how it could be solved:

1. Bob is a computer expert and sets up a website in Tor or I2P, just like silk road.
2. Bob buys a cheap laptop and a small GPS device. He secures it(encrypting hdds, removing cd-roms, disabling usb ports, etc) and prepares it for anonymous communications with himself via (for example)I2P anonymous email. Also some automation would be required to make this laptop simple to use by less technically inclined.
3. Then Bob goes out and finds Alice, who is a drug dealer. Alice is not a street type - she is smart and has a vehicle. They never meet or even if they do Bob never reveals his cunning plan face to face. Then Bob with some determination finds out where Alice lives.
4. Bob sends the Laptop and GPS to Alice anonymously with a (carefully written)letter explaining how it would work.

In the letter, amongst other things like "this computer can not be used for any other purpose and no additional software can be installed, etc", Bob would specify hour of the day for the communication.

The transaction.
1. John comes to Bob's website and orders the desired goods. He pays with Bitcoins and the only thing he has to reveal about himself is area where he lives or is willing to travel.
2. Bob receives this and any other orders and at the end of the day, just before the specified communication time, he sends the details to Alice
3. Alice takes the goods, drops it off in the desired areas and notes GPS coordinates.
4. Alice returns home, sends Bob the GPS coordinates and Bob reveals these coordinates on his site to his customers.
5. Next day goods are retrieved by the customers.

There are some limitation to this, like small area, but I think after a period of successful partnership, it should be scalable as Alice could introduce her friends to Bob. Also, Bob could find some friends on anonymous networks, who could implement this model in other countries
This is a very paranoid version where Bob has the most anonymity, but to kick start the whole venture this could be changed and Bob and Alice could know each other or even be one person. This is a much higher risk scenario. If Alice's or Bob's side of business gets compromised the whole operation goes down. While in the paranoid version, especially after Alice introduced her friends to Bob and Bob found friends in other countries, the show would go on.

Let me know what you think

[MoonShadow]

This just moves the legal risks from the site owner to the mule.

[CryptikEnigma]

Trust me I am right. I know hundreds of online drug vendors and the rare ones that get caught are never caught because they were traced through the mail. Customers have to trust the vendor. Law enforcement can stake out a dead drop just as easily as they can stake out a mail box. Smart customers get PMB with fake identification. In the end it is nearly the same thing as a dead drop.

You wish you could get drugs from the CIA, they only work with way big time dealers.

CIA = Cocaine Import Agency

[mewantsbitcoins]

This just moves the legal risks from the site owner to the mule.

Wouldn't legal risk be the same for both. Cyberspace can be equaly dangerous place
Also, mule is already engaging in this activity and what this would do is reduce the risk of getting cought as it eliminates the need to interact with a buyer. In this model a buyer would never know who the seller was and vice versa.

[Anonymous]

Trust me I am right. I know hundreds of online drug vendors and the rare ones that get caught are never caught because they were traced through the mail. Customers have to trust the vendor. Law enforcement can stake out a dead drop just as easily as they can stake out a mail box. Smart customers get PMB with fake identification. In the end it is nearly the same thing as a dead drop.

You wish you could get drugs from the CIA, they only work with way big time dealers.

CIA = Cocaine Import Agency

Correct. They make the best drugs.

Also wall street runs on cocaine.

[theymos]

I2P is a horrible network to use for something like this because every node is a relay and it makes it super vulnerable to attack since the shipper leaks geolocation when they mail. Find I2P users in shippers area, which is trivial, and then you found the shipper. Using I2P for a drug vendor would actually be worse than using no anonymity network at all. If you use no anonymity network at all law enforcement can find you, if you use I2P anyone can find you if you leak rough geolocation.

Good point. I2P is also very weak to intersection attacks for the same reason.

[mewantsbitcoins]

1. It doesn't have to be I2P
2. How would LE or anyone else know that you are using I2P for that purpose? Mybe you are using freenet or tor, or maybe it's a different means of communication altogether. Is surveiling every anonymous network user feasible? 
3. Parties engaging in this activity could be using random WiFi access points.

[FatherMcGruder]

Do you think the groupon-model would be a nice system for Bitcoin drug pushers to get new costumers through hard discounts?

Not really.

Drug dealers don't sell drugs. Drugs sell themselves. It's crack. It's not an encyclopedia. It's not a fucking vacuum cleaner. You don't really gotta try to sell crack. Ok?

I've never heard a crack dealer going "Man, how am I gonna get rid of all this crack?!"

[cryptoanarchist]

Your distinction between child porn and drug selling is based on your own moral. (and I personally agree with it). But it is not the distinction done by the laws. (both of them are crimes and punished by prison)

You say that a lot of people are libertarian (I'm myself somewhat libertarian but I don't think it does matter). That doesn't mean that all of them are nor that bitcoin is a libertarian tool. It could be used by libertarian. So what ? Was it the intended goal at the beginning ?  It's just like saying Linux is anti-Windows. Linux is used by anti-microsoft people but it doesn't mean that it's the goal (and annoying anti-windows people are quickly banned from Linux forum, even if they don't say anything bad regarding the law. In your case, it's worse).

Trust me : never try two revolutions at the same time, never mix revolutions. Either you choose bitcoin, either you choose libertarianism, but mixing both at the same time is a recipe for failure. Just like communist people in a free software community.

So, I believe that bitcoin forum's moderator should choose :

1) Bitcoin is an economic/software experiment only. Discussing related politcs is of course good thing but everything should respect the law : no money laundering, no drug, no child porn. Remember : it's the image you give to any external viewer seeking information about bitcoin !  Do you thing that average Joe would trust a bunch of anarchist Junkies to do anything related with their money ?

2) Bitcoin is a libertarian/anarchist project. Your message then makes sense. The image you give also makes sense. But then, it should be advertized from the start so innocent people like me will know what to expect and assume that they are putting their foot in some trouble waters…

You should read "The Law" by Frederic Bastiat and get some principled morals in your life. Cause right now, you just sound like a typical boot-licker.

[grondilu]

You should read "The Law" by Frederic Bastiat and get some principled morals in your life. Cause right now, you just sound like a typical boot-licker.

The original text is available here.

[sublimnl]

Interesting thread...

I recently heard about a way someone sells "previously abandoned" bikes here in NYC. Buyer contacts seller, and gives his address (or convenient area). Buyer places the bike, locked up in the area and gives the location of the bike to the buyer. If the buyer approves of the bike (visual inspection, etc), and payment is made - then the seller sends the combination to the lock and the transaction has been made - with no physical interaction. The seller remained anonymous the entire time, and was in complete control of where he placed the bike.

Taking that same process in to the thought process being used here, one could use something like http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200306973_200306973. Simply use a bike chain, and hook up this padlock with the chain somewhere (not really that odd since there are tons of bike chains sans bikes in NYC). The padlock contains a compartment that can only be opened by knowing the combo - once the bitcoin transaction has been completed, the combo is provided to the buyer.


More shots/info of the linked lock: http://www.iwebstall.com/master-lock-5400d-select-access-key-storage-box-with-review/

[MoonShadow]

now that's just slick

[FatherMcGruder]

Taking that same process in to the thought process being used here, one could use something like http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200306973_200306973. Simply use a bike chain, and hook up this padlock with the chain somewhere (not really that odd since there are tons of bike chains sans bikes in NYC). The padlock contains a compartment that can only be opened by knowing the combo - once the bitcoin transaction has been completed, the combo is provided to the buyer.


More shots/info of the linked lock: http://www.iwebstall.com/master-lock-5400d-select-access-key-storage-box-with-review/

Just be sure it put it in a shady place out of the reach of too much moisture (urine).