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Question: Oct. 5 Closing Price:
$0 - 5 (3.5%)
<$8,000 - 38 (27%)
$8,000-$8,500 - 16 (11.3%)
$8,500-$9,000 - 10 (7.1%)
$9,000-$9,500 - 13 (9.2%)
$9,500-$10,000 - 12 (8.5%)
$10,000-$10,500 - 10 (7.1%)
$10,500-$11,000 - 5 (3.5%)
$11,000-$11,500 - 2 (1.4%)
$11,500-$12,000 - 4 (2.8%)
>$12,000 - 17 (12.1%)
>$20,000 - 9 (6.4%)
Total Voters: 141

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 21401214 times)
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May 25, 2013, 08:59:40 PM
 #10941

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May 25, 2013, 09:01:34 PM
 #10942

Just look what the intense competition between miners has lead to: The biggest computational network in the world created, biggest by a fair margin. Bitcoin naturally incentivises competition, due to its fast transfer times (making switching between competitors easy) and its open-source nature (meaning one competitor can't monopolize some part of the client in some way). Now with miners the competition is induced in the protocol itself.


I think its important to note one of the very cool features of Bitcoin economy : Bitcoin incentivizes competition and cooperation.

For instance ASICMiner is going to remain only 30% of the mining force because they know if they got greedy and took it all that other Bitcoiners might be upset and fork off. Then their profits would mean nothing.

It is actually more profitable to maintain the competition than to win the competition. Bitcoin really blows my fucking mind.

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May 25, 2013, 09:01:59 PM
 #10943

And who is to say this might not happen again, but for instance with "Bitcoin is illegal and it's dead"? Remember that those sentiments only are created once the price has already fallen for a longer time. Bitcoin was only declared dead by Wired near its very bottom at 2.

I'm willing to bet that we are going to see 4 digits within a few years, but boy, do most of the newcomers here have unrealistic expectations.

Here's a bottleneck for you "singularity" guys that ultimately limits the height of parabolic rises: Infrastructure. Remember when MtGox had an order queue of up to 75 minutes filled with market sells? Think this can't happen again in some other variation? Think again.

What kind of variation? "Order queue filled with 75 minutes worth of market buys?" ;-)
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May 25, 2013, 09:14:04 PM
 #10944



IMG isn't loading fo' me
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May 25, 2013, 09:14:15 PM
 #10945

Let's be honest , most people in this thread have no desire of spending their hard earned coins anytime soon. BTC is more like an electronic improved version of gold. And it's not like I can go to a shop with half an ounce of gold in my hand and buy me a smartphone... at least not for the moment. And I don't care... gold is a commonly accepted store of value nevertheless. Enough for me to hold it and change it back into fiat at need.

If anyone quotes this please save me the lecture about BTC having no intrinsic value as opposed to gold. Perception is value.

I know, right?

Listen to these guys (especially maloney) struggling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRpwRpLdLDc

The mental anguish is palpable.
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May 25, 2013, 09:20:39 PM
 #10946

It worries me to a certain degree that there doesn't appear to be a steady growth of services and stores accepting bitcoins.

So what?

I agree. I think many idealists were hoping that Bitcoin would have a very grassroots community based adoption proceeding to rise and change the economy around them. Besides we early adopters who were willing to take a crazy idea serious, I really don't see this happening. Corporations and global transactional business are going to take Bitcoin and run with it, simply because it works better, faster and cheaper. Other business will have to adopt or get left behind. Most of the populace of the world puts trust in products that backed by large corporations, they will respond to advertising. Bitcoin will trickle down to the common people in this way.

I don't care wether it trickles down or grass-grows up. As long as it forces all entites to suffer the consequences of their own actions (including governments and banks) a great goal is reached.

Money is what the people use as money. We have the power and we're starting to realize it. Bitcoin really is a tool for the people to take back power and freedom. Let corporations embrace it and governments be faced with the fact they can't print it.

It's a long way, but we're fucking on it.
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May 25, 2013, 09:23:41 PM
 #10947

It worries me to a certain degree that there doesn't appear to be a steady growth of services and stores accepting bitcoins.

So what?

Let's be honest , most people in this thread have no desire of spending their hard earned coins anytime soon. BTC is more like an  electronic improved version of gold. And it's not like I can go to a shop with half an ounce of gold in my hand and buy me a smartphone... at least not for the moment. And I don't care... gold is a commonly accepted store of value nevertheless. Enough for me to hold it and change it back into fiat at need.

If anyone quotes this please save me the lecture about BTC having no intrinsic value as opposed to gold. Perception is value.


+1

Bitcoin is a great transaction currency. That will never go away. Whether BTC is $200 or $2, people somewhere on the internet will use it to transfer value anonymously across the globe.

But it also works as a digital container to hold value, securely, that is impossible to track. In theory it might end up being the ultimate off shore/tax haven/swiss bank account, ever. It can hold millions, it's easy to secure, and no one can ever prove how much of it you own of it or even that you own it at all.

Obviously it's a lot better at the first option, but the 2nd option is coming. The rally to $266 happened because people started hoarding Bitcoins. There will be a point in time where that happens again. The next extended rally, people will simply refuse to sell. There will be no supply. Which is why the price skyrockets. SR peeps start holding instead of selling. Businesses start holding instead of selling. Miners hold a little longer before selling. The price goes up every day people keep hoarding  until it's too tempting not to sell (turns out that was $240-$260 ish). An extended rally turns everyone into a bullish speculative investor.

Turns out, same thing happens to gold. It will just take time for BTC to mature, but that time is coming no question. It is the new digital gold.



+1. Bitcoin is sound money you can actually transact. That's a novel combination.
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May 25, 2013, 09:30:39 PM
 #10948

It worries me to a certain degree that there doesn't appear to be a steady growth of services and stores accepting bitcoins.

So what?

Let's be honest , most people in this thread have no desire of spending their hard earned coins anytime soon. BTC is more like an  electronic improved version of gold. And it's not like I can go to a shop with half an ounce of gold in my hand and buy me a smartphone... at least not for the moment. And I don't care... gold is a commonly accepted store of value nevertheless. Enough for me to hold it and change it back into fiat at need.

If anyone quotes this please save me the lecture about BTC having no intrinsic value as opposed to gold. Perception is value.


Valid point, but in my opinion it is a tad naive to just believe that without a bit of skpeticism. I for one want to be more cautious than that. Gold has been used as a store of value and as a currency thousands of years. Today it lost its utility as a currency for the most part, but it's still a rock solid value store because it's so well established and has an undeniable proof of reliability in price storage.

Ancient physical coins were made of valuable metals, gold being the most prominent. To this day, the value of physical coins is, at least by principle, tied to the value of the material they are made of.
Gold might be mostly a value store today, but t has been a very active currency in the past.

Transactions of small amounts are penalized with bitcoins, set a low reward value on your client and it will take forever to get a  decent number of confirmations. This wasn't even discussed pre lates bubble, and even today it is somewhat a taboo. So we are left with medium to large value transactions, and to be optimistic we say that bitcoins is more like gold. In other words, we fast forward the utility part of a currency and jump in directly to the value store stage.
I'm skeptical about this. Would I see adoption by average joe, I would be much more sure about bitcoin's success.

+1
Unless adopted by the masses, bitcoin won't be considered a safe store of value like gold, its inherent value will be mainly based upon speculation.
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May 25, 2013, 09:42:51 PM
 #10949

I know, right?

Listen to these guys (especially maloney) struggling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRpwRpLdLDc

The mental anguish is palpable.

The problem with this discussion is that there's no one on the Bitcoin side.

Gold bug 1: "I think gold is good."
Gold bug 2: "I also think gold is good."
Gold bug 1: "Ah, question answered then!"

Please bring Jon Matonis to the discussion next time!
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May 25, 2013, 09:51:03 PM
 #10950

I know, right?

Listen to these guys (especially maloney) struggling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRpwRpLdLDc

The mental anguish is palpable.

The problem with this discussion is that there's no one on the Bitcoin side.

Gold bug 1: "I think gold is good."
Gold bug 2: "I also think gold is good."
Gold bug 1: "Ah, question answered then!"

Please bring Jon Matonis to the discussion next time!

Or trace meyer.

I don't think the goal of the discussion was to have a discussion.

Maloney had to answer because he was asked and other big metal heads had already voiced their opinion (Doug Casey, James Turk for example). Similar to the ones I mentioned (Turk seems to be moving faster toward bitcoin, though) he's upholding his heavy metal view cause that's his agenda.
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May 25, 2013, 09:56:03 PM
 #10951

It worries me to a certain degree that there doesn't appear to be a steady growth of services and stores accepting bitcoins.

So what?

I agree. I think many idealists were hoping that Bitcoin would have a very grassroots community based adoption proceeding to rise and change the economy around them. Besides we early adopters who were willing to take a crazy idea serious, I really don't see this happening. Corporations and global transactional business are going to take Bitcoin and run with it, simply because it works better, faster and cheaper. Other business will have to adopt or get left behind. Most of the populace of the world puts trust in products that backed by large corporations, they will respond to advertising. Bitcoin will trickle down to the common people in this way.

I think the government, or at least those that are directing them, have already shown their hand. The FinCen "guidance" was like getting let into a club because you know the bouncers. They want Bitcoin and going forward it is not a question of if BTC survives or not, it is rather who gets control over it, whether they can co-opt it. It is just too close to a digital currency that could be used to track people and it is also close to one (with plug-ins) that can keep people anonymous.

I am pretty sure though that they are underestimating all that it is going to be. It is a Black Swan and Anti-Fragile (See my sig.)

If BTC (and it's technology) has not profoundly SHOCKED you yet, then you don't understand it.  Cool
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May 25, 2013, 09:59:32 PM
 #10952

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May 25, 2013, 10:01:31 PM
 #10953

Just look what the intense competition between miners has lead to: The biggest computational network in the world created, biggest by a fair margin. Bitcoin naturally incentivises competition, due to its fast transfer times (making switching between competitors easy) and its open-source nature (meaning one competitor can't monopolize some part of the client in some way). Now with miners the competition is induced in the protocol itself.


I think its important to note one of the very cool features of Bitcoin economy : Bitcoin incentivizes competition and cooperation.

For instance ASICMiner is going to remain only 30% of the mining force because they know if they got greedy and took it all that other Bitcoiners might be upset and fork off. Then their profits would mean nothing.

It is actually more profitable to maintain the competition than to win the competition. Bitcoin really blows my fucking mind.



I don't think many people honestly get what BTC can be. It is like back in the early days of the internet, but now it is ^2 . There is just too much infrastructure, ideas, technology, brilliant experienced people, etc. behind it.

The sort of ironic thing is that the valuation of BTC slips people for a loop and then they really miss the bigger picture.
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May 25, 2013, 10:25:16 PM
 #10954

I know, right?

Listen to these guys (especially maloney) struggling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRpwRpLdLDc

The mental anguish is palpable.

The problem with this discussion is that there's no one on the Bitcoin side.

Gold bug 1: "I think gold is good."
Gold bug 2: "I also think gold is good."
Gold bug 1: "Ah, question answered then!"

Please bring Jon Matonis to the discussion next time!

Or trace meyer.

I don't think the goal of the discussion was to have a discussion.

Maloney had to answer because he was asked and other big metal heads had already voiced their opinion (Doug Casey, James Turk for example). Similar to the ones I mentioned (Turk seems to be moving faster toward bitcoin, though) he's upholding his heavy metal view cause that's his agenda.

He should listen Trace on this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ3zpurLcyo#t=02m26s
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May 25, 2013, 10:42:10 PM
 #10955

Bitcoin is too risky/volatile ...
I don't like trading for that reason: Woooot, price just jumped ten dollars, lets crash it! weeeee, today bitcoin is worth 20 bucks more than yestarday

Isn't that what trading is about? Grin

Bitcoin is very good for international payment - fast and free.
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May 25, 2013, 10:55:16 PM
 #10956

Bitcoin is too risky/volatile to be used as a safe store of value, unless you have the luck to purchase at the very start of each bubble and not plan to cash out in one year minimum, if ever.

At the moment rest in speculators territory.

No way anyone is gonna spend 1,000,000$ in bitcoins as a store of value for example, if at the next moment all the bears are going to dump their coins for the only purpose of repurchase cheaper, making the inversor lossing 15% of his inversion.

Think about it, with gold you don't have that problem, no one is watching your purchases in some charts in real time at home just waiting to crash the price later.

I don't like trading for that reason: Woooot, price just jumped ten dollars, lets crash it! weeeee, today bitcoin is worth 20 bucks more than yestarday, but my TA says it can't go parabolic! lets crash the market with my 6k coins and create some panic sell! i need moar cheap coins i don't have enought!

Very few people are cashing out because really they need the cash, 90% are waiting to see a green hour candle to dump their coins for repurchase cheaper. I respect both, but don't like the last.

Greed is slowing adoption, at least adoption by the ones expecting to use Bitcoin as a safe store of value or the ones to want to use it as a currency.

Just my 2cp.

It is too early in the life of BTC for stability. If it was stable it wouldn't make any sense as we really don't know what it is. Think about that...  As we see what it can do, who adopts it, how it gets used, the power it can be, etc. then we are going to have an idea of it's worth. You can be sure it will be MUCH higher than current levels. And,  I don't say that as an investor/speculator, just do the math and integrate a bit of foresight.

Greed just won't matter as on the one hand those decimal places will always make it usable for those that want to use it, no matter how many are holding. Though, in the long run, I don't see that being a problem. On the other hand, as the value starts to go up and goes to values that don't seem possible (by regular stock, currency, commodity, etc. standards), people will sell. Those that don't sell know what Bitcoin is, but even they will sell some, because they know what Bitcoin is. To comprehend that, you sort of have to understand what Bitcoin is  Wink

Welcome to the greatest social experiment the world has ever known.

IAS

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May 25, 2013, 10:59:49 PM
 #10957

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May 25, 2013, 11:36:31 PM
 #10958

Bitcoin is too risky/volatile to be used as a safe store of value, unless you have the luck to purchase at the very start of each bubble and not plan to cash out in one year minimum, if ever.

At the moment rest in speculators territory.

No way anyone is gonna spend 1,000,000$ in bitcoins as a store of value for example, if at the next moment all the bears are going to dump their coins for the only purpose of repurchase cheaper, making the inversor lossing 15% of his inversion.

Think about it, with gold you don't have that problem, no one is watching your purchases in some charts in real time at home just waiting to crash the price later.

I don't like trading for that reason: Woooot, price just jumped ten dollars, lets crash it! weeeee, today bitcoin is worth 20 bucks more than yestarday, but my TA says it can't go parabolic! lets crash the market with my 6k coins and create some panic sell! i need moar cheap coins i don't have enought!

Very few people are cashing out because really they need the cash, 90% are waiting to see a green hour candle to dump their coins for repurchase cheaper. I respect both, but don't like the last.

Greed is slowing adoption, at least adoption by the ones expecting to use Bitcoin as a safe store of value or the ones to want to use it as a currency.

Just my 2cp.

Your view is obviously too short term when speaking of store of value. Your are not an investor of bitcoin but a trader.
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May 25, 2013, 11:41:52 PM
 #10959

I know, right?

Listen to these guys (especially maloney) struggling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRpwRpLdLDc

The mental anguish is palpable.

The problem with this discussion is that there's no one on the Bitcoin side.

Gold bug 1: "I think gold is good."
Gold bug 2: "I also think gold is good."
Gold bug 1: "Ah, question answered then!"

Please bring Jon Matonis to the discussion next time!

Ok i am taking a nerdish aproach to this. What about not so long future.
Look at these companies:



http://www.planetaryresources.com/

Quote
Asteroids are the best real estate in the Solar System.

Despite their celestial age, our understanding of asteroids is still in its infancy. However, the more we learn about them, the more enticing destinations they become.

Asteroids are primordial material left over from the formation of the Solar System. They are scattered throughout it: some pass close to the Sun, and others are found out beyond the orbit of Neptune. A vast majority have been collected by Jupiter’s gravity into a belt between it and Mars – an area known as the Main Belt. As it turns out, we have been discovering thousands of asteroids that do not belong to the Main Belt, but instead pass near Earth’s orbit – nearly 9,000 to date, with almost a thousand more discovered every year.

Many of these near-Earth asteroids are easily accessible from Earth. And many contain enormous quantities of accessible resources.

AN INCREDIBLE RESOURCE
There are over 1,500 asteroids that are as easy to get to as the surface of the Moon. They are also in Earth-like orbits with small gravity fields, making them easier to approach and depart.

Asteroid resources have some unique characteristics that make them especially attractive. Unlike Earth, where heavier metals are close to the core, metals in asteroids are distributed throughout their body, making them easier to extract.

Asteroids contain valuable and useful materials like iron, nickel, water, and rare platinum group metals, often in significantly higher concentration than found in mines on Earth.

We are only just beginning to realize the incredible potential of asteroids. The first encounter of a spacecraft with an asteroid was in 1991, as the Galileo spacecraft flew by the 951 Gaspra asteroid on its way to Jupiter. Our knowledge of these celestial neighbors has been revolutionized by a small set of US and international missions carried out since that time. With each visit or fly-by, the science on asteroids has been rewritten.

or Nasa plans to capture an asteroid



http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/04/130410-asteroid-recovery-nasa-space-budget-science/


We might not see it or yes if you are young enough, but maybe in 20 years there might be small asteroid mining companies around

I say that bitcoin is even better than gold. One satellite filled with gold and the gold economy will face a huge devaluation or maybe shocked if one country manages to get one and the rest of the countries get a lesser percentage of gold as a result... With Bitcoin this cannot happen
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May 25, 2013, 11:59:30 PM
 #10960

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