Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[BldSwtTrs]

Right now it is not the block size that needs to be increased. It is the tx fees that need to be increased!

If you increase transaction fees you decrease the number of transactions, so you don't increase the total level of transaction fees.

By increasing the blocksize there is more transaction with constant transactions fees => total level of transaction fees increases.

[mmitech]

It is the [use cost] that need to be increased!

Said no successful business in a competitive market anywhere.

Longterm Bitcoin has to gather enough fees to survive, without fees no miners.

Or in your business language: We can give away our product for free, said no successful business ever.

by long term you mean a couple of years from now ? or when the block reward is almost zero ? we have to define what is long term first then we can discuss what is right.

longterm i mean when blockreward is zero, yes. nevertheless we should already be aware of that fees are not something "evil" but overall necessary. its a balance between allowing 0-fee transactions to process, while still having enough pressure to have some fees paid.

When the block reward is zero the Bitcoin network must be so huge in term of processing transactions which means the price must be high enough to make it always profitable for miners to secure the network, but if we start excluding people now with high fees then Bitcoin already failed.

Not to mention how we always advertised Bitcoin as the cheap and fast and best solution and savor and what not.. but the main problem is not about fees or free transactions, it all goes down to block size, most of you fail to understand that 90 % of transactions in the queue waiting to be included has valid fees, so ...

[AlexGR]

We wont give our costumers what they need but lets keep increasing the fee instead, until no one wants to use our overpriced old service especially with other better and efficient services raising... this really seems like a smart move.

The customers enjoy 0.04 usd first block inclusion, for "urgent" cases, and that with "full blocks" and a queue in the mempool.

Compared to "pay me 1-10%" + serious fixed fees of any other bank-related / cc-related / paypal based payment system, bitcoin is king.

There is no altcoin which has solved the fundamental tradeoff between supply/demand, low fees and attack spam vector.

If any coin can simply provide free txs for the lolz, then a script-kid can insert 10 Terabytes of transactions for the lolz. In which case that altcoin is a joke-coin, because it will be rendered DOA by the script-kid.

Free or near free txs = dead coin by free or near free bloating, until the miners decide that they don't want to mine this shit (by the time they decide that, they may already have hundreds of gigabytes bloat on their hands).

One could spend less than a few btcs to spam dogecoin for an entire day, which, theoretically, has 10x more "capacity". Actually one could "sponsor" such bloating as a case study.

[becoin]

We wont give our costumers what they need

Your customers need free money. No doubt about that.

...especially with other better and efficient services raising... this really seems like a smart move.

Yes, it is a smart move. Get rid of such customers! Let them go to and ruin the other 'efficient services'.
If it is the only type of customers you have then you don't offer value in your service and you should change your business!

[CoinCube]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/42fggm/chinese_community_has_voiced_consensus_opinion_to/

I think this is why we are starting to go up. Miners providing clear road map.

Also, I'm interpreting this as a miner revolt. Not siding with core or classic. Just changing 1mb to 2mb and nothing else. I'm happy with the move but not everyone might be.


Copied from Google translate.


[Currency] 1992 consensus reached circle gathering support 2MB, against less than 90% count bifurcated force consensus
Lai Bite mine pool | 01-24 | Look landlord
This post was last at 2016-1-24 22:25 edited by 莱比特 mine pool

Author : Lai Bite mine pond river Thatcher stakeholders : Bitcoin / litecoin miners, who hold out

January 23 afternoon, the coldest day in Beijing, good Bitcoin (haobtc.com) organized a party in full swing in currency circles. Participants in the development of good bitcoins, bitcoin block expansion, force mining operator, on Bitcoin future prospects and other topics heated discussion.

On the block expansion, the participants reached the following consensus and hoped that all bitcoin businesses and users to join this broad nine (90%) di (2MB) consensus:

1, Bitcoin need expansion to 2MB.
2, against less than 90% count bifurcated force consensus.

Meeting participants :
Good Bitcoin CEO Wu Gang, super bitcoin, Thief, Bear, etc.
Continental CEO Wu Ji Han Bit
Ants mine pool Panzhi Biao
Ants mining machine Li Ying Fei
Guo Hong Btc123 only
Wells Fargo Funds Zhao Guofeng
Cloud coins cat
Too wallet than Wenhao
Look currency Fangfang
Soso Bitcoin Linjia Peng
(Many participants, if missing, please forgive me)
...
Consensus:
As we all know, this block expansion is no longer a technical issue, but a conflict of interest due to political problems. Background see previous article: " [Bitcoin facing a critical choice] urge all people to support macro news 2MB expansion . "...

Finally some intelligent thinking. Thank you miner revolt. A non political fork from 1-2 MB that is driven entirely by miners and not an attempt to take over future network control is exactly what is needed.

Call it Bitcoin Core 2MB or something, get a 90% majority of hashing power behind you, fork and then step back and let the experts in at bitcoin core do there thing and continue working on making bitcoin better a with segregated witness which is complicated and should not be rushed.

A contentious hard fork would be a disaster. An apolitical miner driven fork would probably still cause some to grumble but it is probably something everyone could live with. This is promising.

[Ibian]

Big blocktards

The moment you resort to insults you lose the argument.

[bargainbin]

...
Or in your business language: We can give away our product for free, said no successful business ever.
...

Depends on what you mean by "for free" :- There's Google...

[becoin]

If you increase transaction fees you decrease the number of transactions, so you don't increase the total level of transaction fees.

This is a very naive argument. It is like saying this place is not attractive to people because it is overcrowded...

[BldSwtTrs]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/42fggm/chinese_community_has_voiced_consensus_opinion_to/

I think this is why we are starting to go up. Miners providing clear road map.

Also, I'm interpreting this as a miner revolt. Not siding with core or classic. Just changing 1mb to 2mb and nothing else. I'm happy with the move but not everyone might be.


Copied from Google translate.


[Currency] 1992 consensus reached circle gathering support 2MB, against less than 90% count bifurcated force consensus
Lai Bite mine pool | 01-24 | Look landlord
This post was last at 2016-1-24 22:25 edited by 莱比特 mine pool

Author : Lai Bite mine pond river Thatcher stakeholders : Bitcoin / litecoin miners, who hold out

January 23 afternoon, the coldest day in Beijing, good Bitcoin (haobtc.com) organized a party in full swing in currency circles. Participants in the development of good bitcoins, bitcoin block expansion, force mining operator, on Bitcoin future prospects and other topics heated discussion.

On the block expansion, the participants reached the following consensus and hoped that all bitcoin businesses and users to join this broad nine (90%) di (2MB) consensus:

1, Bitcoin need expansion to 2MB.
2, against less than 90% count bifurcated force consensus.

Meeting participants :
Good Bitcoin CEO Wu Gang, super bitcoin, Thief, Bear, etc.
Continental CEO Wu Ji Han Bit
Ants mine pool Panzhi Biao
Ants mining machine Li Ying Fei
Guo Hong Btc123 only
Wells Fargo Funds Zhao Guofeng
Cloud coins cat
Too wallet than Wenhao
Look currency Fangfang
Soso Bitcoin Linjia Peng
(Many participants, if missing, please forgive me)
...

Finally some intelligent thinking. Thank you miner revolt. A non political fork from 1-2 MB that is driven entirely by miners and not an attempt to take over future network control is exactly what is needed.

Call it Bitcoin Core 2MB or something, get a 90% majority of hashing power behind you, fork and then step back and let the experts in at bitcoin core do there thing and work continue working on making bitcoin better a with segregated witness which is complicated and should not be rushed.

A contentious hard fork would be a disaster. An apolitical miner driven fork would probably still cause some to grumble but it is probably something everyone could live with. This is promising.

Why are you calling experts the people who don't see the need to move the blocksize limit, which you agree is needful?

[mmitech]

We wont give our costumers what they need

Your customers need free money. No doubt about that.

...especially with other better and efficient services raising... this really seems like a smart move.

Yes, it is a smart move. Get rid of such customers! Let them go to and ruin the other 'efficient services'.
If it is the only type of customers you have then you don't offer value in your service and you should change your business!

Read my previous comment, you really fail to understand the issue here, it is not about free or cheap transactions (although this is how we always advertised bitcoin) but it is about Block size, 90% of transactions in the queue have a valid paid fees. but there is no space to include them.

However, If you want me to pay $1 fee for a $20 worth of goods/services then I am telling you that Bitcoin is for sure failing.

[RAJSALLIN]

It is the [use cost] that need to be increased!

Said no successful business in a competitive market anywhere.

Longterm Bitcoin has to gather enough fees to survive, without fees no miners.

Or in your business language: We can give away our product for free, said no successful business ever.

by long term you mean a couple of years from now ? or when the block reward is almost zero ? we have to define what is long term first then we can discuss what is right.

longterm i mean when blockreward is zero, yes. nevertheless we should already be aware of that fees are not something "evil" but overall necessary. its a balance between allowing 0-fee transactions to process, while still having enough pressure to have some fees paid.

Doesn't the  increase in hash rate despite being lower in price than the 2013 high suggest it's way to early to discuss increasing fees? Yes there is the halving coming but why would it be any different from the ones before. Let bitcoin really grow before touching fees.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[Richy_T]

Longterm Bitcoin has to gather enough fees to survive, without fees no miners.

Or in your business language: We can give away our product for free, said no successful business ever.

edit: the fees will longterm lead 1:1 to Bitcoins security. the higher the gathered fees the higher the security of the network.

Without fees, no miners. So people will pay fees to keep their transactions getting on the blockchain and miners will select transactions which help pay for their business. This isn't rocket science.

The problem comes when someone comes along and interferes in this negotiation between customer and service provider and distorts the value proposition.

[Richy_T]

longterm i mean when blockreward is zero, yes. nevertheless we should already be aware of that fees are not something "evil" but overall necessary. its a balance between allowing 0-fee transactions to process, while still having enough pressure to have some fees paid.

I have seen *no one* argue for miners to be forced to process zero fee transactions. Nor could you without massive effort and changes to the protocol.

[JayJuanGee]

do you think may the bitcoin prices go up again like today ? i bought little bitcoin but prices start to drop again. i am nervous.. what are your predictions ?

maybe you invested too much?

If you're getting nervous about every little price swing, what will you do when bitcoin goes -30% or +50% like it will surely do again some time in the future? Panic? Act on emotion?

make a plan (something like dollar cost averaging every week) and stick to it!

Don't invest what you can't afford to lose.

If you don't have enough money: try to earn more and cut expenses. Also cut expenses.

EDIT: oh and my personal favorite: whatever you do, don't ever commit all available funds/resources. Always leave some room for the possibility of a bad decision. (I will never understand people who go "all in", or "fully out")

+1.   Great post. 

[Richy_T]

Can miners fork to 2MB and still stay with Core?

Or they're back on Classic??

Miners as individuals can do what they want. The issue becomes when they mine that first 1.01MB block and it gets rejected by the network (or not).

[mmitech]

Can miners fork to 2MB and still stay with Core?

Or they're back on Classic??

The block size is one of the consensus rules of Bitcoin, nodes check consensus parameters when they connect to another node so once miners raise the block size to 2MB they will get disconnected from Core for "misbehaving".

[mmitech]

Can miners fork to 2MB and still stay with Core?

Or they're back on Classic??

Miners as individuals can do what they want. The issue becomes when they mine that first 1.01MB block and it gets rejected by the network (or not).

actually, they will just be on their own fork, it will get rejected from other nodes that runs Core but it will be valid on their chain and they will keep mining higher blocks, it will be the longest chain with most work, as Satoshi implied before: Bitcoin will be what the longest chain with the most work decides it to be.

[CoinCube]

Why are you calling experts the people who don't see the need to move the blocksize limit, which you agree is needful?

I call bitcoin core experts because they are experts that is not disputable much their competition are experts too. Scaling is a complex topic. There are strong disagreements about what is optimal. No one has made a definitive case but everyone agrees bitcoin needs to scale.

A politically driven contentious hard fork that seems to be much more about who gets to control the future of bitcoin rather then actually about increasing the block size is a known evil. Bitcoin is intrinsically just a computer ledger. It's value comes from the talent of those involved in its ecosystem. The goal is to grow that ecosystem not rip it apart.

[Andre#]

It is the [use cost] that need to be increased!

Said no successful business in a competitive market anywhere.

Longterm Bitcoin has to gather enough fees to survive, without fees no miners.

Or in your business language: We can give away our product for free, said no successful business ever.

edit: the fees will longterm lead 1:1 to Bitcoins security. the higher the gathered fees the higher the security of the network.

Nobody will disagree with that. The question is if those fees will be paid by many tx, or just a few. If you limit the size of blocks to 1 MB (and hence, the number of tx to ~1700), the average fee/tx has to become very expensive (~$5 per tx).