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Question: When $60K? (EST time zone)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 25186187 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (157 posts by 13 users deleted.)
jbreher
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November 14, 2019, 07:24:59 PM

Since you edited out my addressing of this point, let me re-insert it for you:

A penalty transaction has distinct characteristics:

Quote
LN channel = multisig UTXO.

To change channel balance write new tx spending the UTXO. Both sign but dont broadcast.

They all:

- are V0_P2WPKH type transactions
- are roughly the same size of 237-238 B, 121 vB, 483-484 WU
- use SegWit addresses

There is a way to filter through transaction data based on this criteria.

Still absofuckinglutely irrelevant. Congratulations.

How is filtering transaction data irrelevant to the identification of penalty claims?

You keep trying to harp on penalty claims, when over and over again I point out that penalty claims are not the exclusive means for losing funds in LN. Ergo, irrelevant.

Quote
In case you missed it, another possibility is that penalty txs were never issued. For the THIRD FUCKING TIME, dickwad.

Quote
If his counterparties were on the beneficial side of a stale closing tx, what is their incentive to issue a penalty? They stand to win more through just letting the mistaken stale tx broadcasts lie as is. Seems we need to at least consider that possibility before closing the case. As at least one scenario.

So far none of the 400 nodes connected to him reported receiving any funds.

Hmm. None of the 400 unjustly-enriched parties reported unjust enrichment. Whodathunkit?

Or, perhaps its because they never received jack shit. Not ONE in 400 nodes is honest enough to report receiving more funds than they should have? Just think about it for a moment before responding.

Do you deny that it is possible?

It is possible that not one of 400 nodes would have received "unjustified enrichment" without reporting it

Exactly. Thank you. In other words, it is possible that he/she did NOT 'make the whole thing up'.

Trying to get to the bottom of what happened requires actual evidence, not hearsay and supposition.

Quote
You again edited out the link I provided to a discussion on the LN GitHub about the issue which as far as I can tell is comprised of the first and foremost members of the relevant COMMUNITY:

https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/issues/2468

A couple of the "experts" indirectly referenced in the Bitcoinist article have been posting in that GitHub thread. That's why its not hearsay.

Your third link was a news blurb containing allegations, totally devoid of links to evidence. It was -- again definitively -- hearsay.

First of all, this isn't a courtroom. Second, the title of the article is "4 BITCOIN ‘LOSS’ ON LIGHTNING NETWORK IS FUD, SAYS COMMUNITY" --- the whole premise of the article is based on second-hand information. Third, the article does contain links to evidence, which contain links to more evidence.

- Bitcoinist article contains this paragraph:

Quote
A Twitter thread looking into the circumstances behind the loss and how it could be prevented in future, suggested that LN had been working as intended. The victim would have been fine if he had waited, but impatience caused him to “crash through multiple safety barriers,” as he was deemed “in over his head.”

- The referenced Twitter thread says this:

Quote
Yesterday there was a post on /r/Bitcoin about him "losing" 4 BTC on LN. https://reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/dlvokv/how_i_lost_4_btc_on_lightning_network/
There's a reason why limits were implemented and why everyone is saying you should be careful when playing around with LN.
That being said: this guy was being an idiot.

- The referenced Reddit thread says this:

Quote
I still have some hope... @guggero from http://lightningcommunity.slack.com may help me... I'm just stuck in some kind of hypnotic state...

@guggero (LN developer) says this in the GitHub issue thread:

Quote
I'm going to write a script that goes through all your 400 channels and looks at the TX outputs if there is still something to be claimed. This should also give us a final account of how much was actually lost because of justice transactions (if any).

So if you are willing to DYOR you can see that nothing is unsubstantiated, and while the issue may not technically be "FUD", it sounds like the guy didn't actually lose any coins at all, in spite of what appears to be his best attempts to do so.

There is exactly zero _evidence_ in your examples above.
SAYS COMMUNITY
suggested, would have , if
reddit pile-on full of speculation and allegation, devoid of evidence
may help
going to - and the crux of the biscuit - 'justice transactions'
sounds like

As I said, all hearsay, zero evidence.

Quote
OK I'm making a concession that he may have lost a maximum of 0.1 BTC (though its still more likely he lost nothing), but it still seems like it was all to make a bullshit point about "the dangers of Lightning." Making a concession is hardly "moving the goalposts."

I was originally stressing that his claims of losing 4 BTC were bullshit.

No, you jumped down my throat for merely asking to see some actual evidence supporting the claim that the entire incident was not made up from whole cloth. From 'case closed, he made the whole thing up' to 'I think he's exaggerating' is the motherfuckin canonical example of moving the goalposts.

Stop being such a baby. If suggesting you verify information for yourself is the same thing as "jumping down your throat" then you're not cut out to talk on an internet forum and should probably go join a sewing circle.

Go fuck yourself twice. I'm just fine on these here innerwebs. But you don't get to move the goalposts without me calling you on it.

Quote
He still may have put himself in this situation on purpose, though now I believe he earnestly just made a major fuckup -- for whatever reason is beyond me. Its a one-of-a-kind issue though so its good for LN devs to iron this sort of thing out now rather than later.

Maybe somewhere along the process, some actual evidence will be surfaced. Most probably, some has. But it for damned sure wasn't in your initial post that sent us down this sorry-ass twig.

Quote
Admitting to changing my opinion on something after learning more about it is only "moving the goalposts" if you come from the viewpoint that you are trying to score a goal.

Go fuck yourself. You're the one trying to twist things around to make it appear that you said something other than that which you did.

No, I didn't. I admitted that I changed my stance from "he's a liar" to "he may have accidentally fucked up."

IOW, you moved the goddamned goalposts. Man up / woman up and admit it.

Quote
I still maintain that nowhere near 4 BTC was lost. Sounds like he lost nothing.

Maybe, maybe not. Still waiting on evidence.....

For the record, I'm ambivalent on the matter. I don't know, (and I don't much care) whether or not the described event occurred as described (although I know it to be possible within the design of LN, which may or may not give the passerby pause). But I am not willing to propagate hearsay as fact -- something which you are demonstrably altogether happy to do.
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jbreher
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November 14, 2019, 07:27:30 PM

But the mesh chairs aren't going to be as comfortable as finding a well-designed memory foam chair (if they even exist).

Says the person who -- in the very same sentence -- admits he's never sat in one.

<whatevs>

I'm sitting comfortably in the chair you derided, while you're whinging about your chair's lumbar support pain. Observers can draw their own conclusions.

Are you sure it's safe? I threw some memory foam away after reading about the dodgy chemicals in it.

Are you sure you haven't lost the plot? It appears you are asking me? I'm not the one touting memory foam. For reference:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg53059453#msg53059453
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November 14, 2019, 07:31:10 PM

Quote
In view of the uncertain and unsafe traffic conditions for travelling to [...], we are suspending classes on the Main Campus for the rest of the semester and making teaching and learning accessible online. This will enable students to stay away from campus, and even leave Hong Kong should they wish, while at the same time completing their courses and assessments.

Individual instructors will upload to Moodle detailed arrangements for course delivery and assessment. Examinations will be moved online or replaced by alternative forms of assessment. Details will be circulated in the next few days.

For help with travel arrangements out of Hong Kong, non-local students are advised to contact either the China Affairs Office or the International Affairs Office.

Senior Management Team

Hmm, so the protests are unexpectedly pushing HK's studies in the right direction. Eventually, every university will move to distant learning. The centuries-old way of learning (where fools gather in a classroom at 8 AM sharp unwillingly) never made any sense to me. Roll Eyes
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November 14, 2019, 08:00:46 PM
Merited by Last of the V8s (1)

There must be some way out of here

Inside...  Wink
"way" == zen
There's a time for zen.
And there's a time for dildos.

true zen you may find
when waiting within the flow
for the green dildo

#haiku
Last of the V8s
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November 14, 2019, 08:04:38 PM

https://stratumprotocol.org/ stratum2 came out
more decentralised mining or somesuch thing
actually there seem a lot of improvements, latency improved, empty block mining incentive lowered...
makrospex
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November 14, 2019, 08:28:13 PM
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https://stratumprotocol.org/ stratum2 came out
more decentralised mining or somesuch thing
actually there seem a lot of improvements, latency improved, empty block mining incentive lowered...

Biggest improvement was to send JSON overboard, imo.
There's some need for standards, of course, but when it comes to performance, proprietary data formats are mandatory.
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November 14, 2019, 08:51:41 PM
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Theymos boosted my merit power source by %175  

I wish he boosted the price of btc by %175 too. Grin
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November 14, 2019, 08:56:56 PM
Merited by xhomerx10 (1), lightfoot (1), BobLawblaw (1)

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November 14, 2019, 08:58:09 PM

Theymos boosted my merit power source by %175  

Wow, that's very cool. Congratulations!

I wish he boosted the price of btc by %175 too. Grin

Well, that's no longer a task of an individual. We'll all (institutional investors + us) boost it together. Wink
LFC_Bitcoin
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November 14, 2019, 10:22:41 PM

Theymos boosted my merit power source by %175  

I wish he boosted the price of btc by %175 too. Grin


Me too!
I’ll be looking for some impressive posting to spray my big load over boys. Tired now though, going to bed.

#nohomo
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November 14, 2019, 10:54:02 PM

Well you know what they say about the markets 'Stairs down, elevator down'. Oh wait
JayJuanGee
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November 14, 2019, 10:58:24 PM
Merited by mindrust (1), fillippone (1)

Theymos boosted my merit power source by %175  

I wish he boosted the price of btc by %175 too. Grin


Me too!
I’ll be looking for some impressive posting to spray my big load over boys. Tired now though, going to bed.

#nohomo

For some reason, I am feeling tired today, too.  So many different things happening, even though the bitcoin price has been a little boring in the last few days, and yeah boring is if the BTC price is trending down or flat rather than up.  So, at least, we have a little time for resting, if the BTC price is not doing too much.

Regarding recent source merit jugglings, I did find it a little strange that more or less theymos has effectuated a sweeping increase of the issuance of source merits that is largely based on averaging how much source merits have been using their smerit supply in the past six months.  

Use it or lose it potential in the way that the change was decided, which also resulted in a strange statistical outcome of a reduction of the number of merit sources from 128 to 98 (not withstanding at least one new merit source, congrats to fillippone) and also a bit of a reduction in the total monthly smerits from a bit under 30k per month to a bit over 20k per month.  There still may be some tweaking going on, perhaps?  You can see the number of source merits and quantity of monthly smerits here.
El duderino_
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November 14, 2019, 11:14:39 PM
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Daaaaamn had another very exciting meeting with Kurious and learned a lot out of the meet again!!!

Thx for having dinner and some nice sharing of thoughts !!!!!
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November 14, 2019, 11:19:19 PM

Re: "Bitcoin won't go up, there is no volume"

The volume shows up when we break ATH.

That's when the magic starts happening.


https://twitter.com/CryptoBull/status/1195076147861762056?s=20

F***ing indeed, but don't mention it brother, let the n00bs play around Cheesy
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November 14, 2019, 11:19:44 PM
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Overfinch used to be run by a guy called Crook. He was a charmless salesman who had me counting my fingers after shaking his hand, and these days they don't add anything except an expensive badge.

But... they used to do real engineering and could transform the old "classic" RR from something you only aimed up the motorway into a quite glorious beast that handled and steered like it really shouldn't have done.

Well suited to old Hendrix/Dylan appreciating V8 lovers.
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November 14, 2019, 11:31:18 PM
Last edit: November 15, 2019, 02:04:11 AM by soxxx

Perhaps in a few hours we move
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November 14, 2019, 11:32:28 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)

Theymos boosted my merit power source by %175  

I wish he boosted the price of btc by %175 too. Grin


Me too!
I’ll be looking for some impressive posting to spray my big load over boys. Tired now though, going to bed.

#nohomo

For some reason, I am feeling tired today, too.  So many different things happening, even though the bitcoin price has been a little boring in the last few days, and yeah boring is if the BTC price is trending down or flat rather than up.  So, at least, we have a little time for resting, if the BTC price is not doing too much.

Regarding recent source merit jugglings, I did find it a little strange that more or less theymos has effectuated a sweeping increase of the issuance of source merits that is largely based on averaging how much source merits have been using their smerit supply in the past six months.  

Use it or lose it potential in the way that the change was decided, which also resulted in a strange statistical outcome of a reduction of the number of merit sources from 128 to 98 (not withstanding at least one new merit source, congrats to fillippone) and also a bit of a reduction in the total monthly smerits from a bit under 30k per month to a bit over 20k per month.  There still may be some tweaking going on, perhaps?  You can see the number of source merits and quantity of monthly smerits here.

As long as I see from this thread:
(LIST)Open Merit Source Applications,waiting list.

At least three new MS were named today.
Other might reveal themselves later on.
Last of the V8s
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November 14, 2019, 11:39:22 PM
Last edit: November 15, 2019, 12:10:51 AM by Last of the V8s

Not sure where JJG got his figures from, though I too thought there were something like 128 at some point. They conflict with the ones here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5198889.msg53078228#msg53078228


anyway congrats and all that jazz

edit well this confirms some of jjg's numbers
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5180975.msg53079446#msg53079446
looks like he removed 30 or 40 and made 8??
lightfoot
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November 14, 2019, 11:44:06 PM

Theymos boosted my merit power source by %175  

I wish he boosted the price of btc by %175 too. Grin


Me too!
I’ll be looking for some impressive posting to spray my big load over boys. Tired now though, going to bed.

#nohomo

How do you know if you got the bump?
Last of the V8s
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November 14, 2019, 11:46:44 PM
Merited by cAPSLOCK (1)

afaiu they got pm's from theymos and their source merit was refilled with the adjusted amounts
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