Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[OutOfMemory]

But essentially once btc cracks 💯 k cheapest fee of 1 sat ends up with a small transaction fee of 16 cents

which compared to handing a dunkin donuts clerk a few bucks is not cost effective.


part of the high fees is btc is 64k and a sat is not cheap anymore.

so if btc goes to 640k  all fees are at least one dollar which is okay for a $10,000 worth of btc to bitmain but not okay for buying a two dollar coffee.

ltc and doge are solid pow and fill in for small purchases pretty much perfectly.

Yeah, you are right (in some way) but i personally think this is a reminder for BTC 2nd level solutions, i am not sure if crypto diversity, which i think we have way too much nowadays, may service as good for longer - or broader use.

I bought miners back in 2017 and BTC crashed and it didn't make sense to even start them so I offloaded them at a huge loss, so I understand the possible difficulties. But I mean if you were mining 6 months ago I don't see what is worse now.

Yeah you're right about the media, well about subjects like this I don't even think it's malice, they just don't care enough to know what they're talking about. I'm knowledgeable in aviation, as an amateur but talking to professionals etc., and it's always funny to hear about the Boeing 787 MAX (doesn't exist) or the Airbus 747...

Funny aviation insights
As i tried to say, if you plan ahead for the halving(s) and difficulty rise as a miner, preferably in a rather pessimistic way, you should be safe. If one runs his business optimistically in a high-risk manner, well who would he want to blame?
I also share your opinion on the media, they also don't care what they are starting off sometimes, too. Carelessness was undermining quality journalism, but if you ask me, the whole world is slowly going stupid (know the movie "Idiocracy?" - that's what i'm talking about). A tiny percentage of "black sheep" media outlets do try to manipulate for whatever reason, in fact. If you look at how Russia manipulated EU politics, and also the US votes... Bit scary, in the face of coming (de?)generations, imo.

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[DaRude]

What's the opinion on Bitcoin transaction fees here? I'd say Bitcoin is broken if any UTXO under 0.001 BTC isn't even enough to pay for it's own transaction fee.

Blocks now have a 3.125 BTC block reward and 10 BTC transaction fees. And as the above image shows: only a few percent is used by normal Bitcoin users with normal transactions. Spammers literally pay 4 million dollars per hour now to create meaningless Bitcoin dust.

See mempool.space for Mempool Goggles, and click Data to see only the "Ordinal" spam.

My opinion is that the decentralized system is operating as intended. There's are fundamental trade offs between decentralization/security and scarcity. Nothing is fundamentally broken just short term spam, for smaller transactions move to L2. Expecting your coffee purchase to be replicated around the world and take up resources on tens of thousands of computers is like going after a fly with a bazooka. That's why L2 was created for smaller transactions, you sacrifice some security for more availability.

With ~5.000 transaction per block, it'll take theoretical maximum of just 5BTC/block to completely keep your 0,001 UTXO unviable, in practice with multiplication effect, and other users on the network it takes much much less to spam bitcoin blockchain.

[bitcoinPsycho]

Finally

"Grayscale Reveals 0.15% Fees For Its Bitcoin Mini Trust ETF"

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/04/20/grayscale-reveals-015-fees-for-its-bitcoin-mini-trust-etf/

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation
Chartbuddy thanks talkimg.com

[DaRude]

Finally

"Grayscale Reveals 0.15% Fees For Its Bitcoin Mini Trust ETF"

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/04/20/grayscale-reveals-015-fees-for-its-bitcoin-mini-trust-etf/

Lol going from 1,5% fee to 0,15% on a mini


and

The filing also provides an illustrative example of the amount of Bitcoin (BTC) Grayscale will contribute to the mini fund: 63,204 bitcoin, or 10% of existing assets in GBTC, as per the filing.

Ummm GBTC currently holds about BTC304k so 63.204 would represent 20% of existing assets. Thus for GBTC holders 80% @ 1,5%fee, and 20% @ 0,15%fee would still put them at 1,23% fee overall

Edit: Or to look at it from another angle, they would still have BTC241k (BTC304k - BTC63k) waiting to be liquidated...

[Biodom]

Finally

"Grayscale Reveals 0.15% Fees For Its Bitcoin Mini Trust ETF"

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/04/20/grayscale-reveals-015-fees-for-its-bitcoin-mini-trust-etf/

Lol going from 1,5% fee to 0,15% on a mini

and

The filing also provides an illustrative example of the amount of Bitcoin (BTC) Grayscale will contribute to the mini fund: 63,204 bitcoin, or 10% of existing assets in GBTC, as per the filing.

Also lol, GBTC currently holds about BTC304k so 63.204 would represent 20% of existing assets. So for GBTC holders 80% @ 1,5%fee, and 20% @ 0,15%fee would still put you at 1,23% overall

Edit: Or to look at it from another angle, they would still have BTC241k (BTC304k - BTC63k) waiting to be liquidated...

Sorry, but it is irrelevant as you don't know the future trajectory of mini.
Example: it could trade at a premium and since GBTC trades with no discount, you still come out ahead. For example, ibit trades between 0.84% discount and 0.98% premium. Same for FBTC.
That's almost 2% range. I know...the snickering must continue regardless of the facts, lol.
However, ask yourself: how relevant is this when we go up/down 5% a day?

[philipma1957]

Finally

"Grayscale Reveals 0.15% Fees For Its Bitcoin Mini Trust ETF"

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/04/20/grayscale-reveals-015-fees-for-its-bitcoin-mini-trust-etf/

Lol going from 1,5% fee to 0,15% on a mini

and

The filing also provides an illustrative example of the amount of Bitcoin (BTC) Grayscale will contribute to the mini fund: 63,204 bitcoin, or 10% of existing assets in GBTC, as per the filing.

Also lol, GBTC currently holds about BTC304k so 63.204 would represent 20% of existing assets. So for GBTC holders 80% @ 1,5%fee, and 20% @ 0,15%fee would still put you at 1,23% overall

Edit: Or to look at it from another angle, they would still have BTC241k (BTC304k - BTC63k) waiting to be liquidated...

Sorry, but it is irrelevant as you don't know the future trajectory of mini.
Example: it could trade at a premium and since GBTC trades with no discount, you still come out ahead. For example, ibit trades between 0.84% discount and 0.98% premium. Same for FBTC.
That's almost 2% range. I know...the snickering must continue regardless of facts, lol.
However, ask yourself: how relevant is this when we go up/down 5% a day?

etf’s seem to have caused a lot of volatility.

[sirazimuth]

OT alert... because that's what I do....

You can now all sing along bros. Track released...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg63942210#msg63942210

https://soundcloud.com/sirazimuth/totality6

GO BITCOIN

[xhomerx10]

When supply shock?

[aesma]

Finally

"Grayscale Reveals 0.15% Fees For Its Bitcoin Mini Trust ETF"

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/04/20/grayscale-reveals-015-fees-for-its-bitcoin-mini-trust-etf/

Lol going from 1,5% fee to 0,15% on a mini

and

The filing also provides an illustrative example of the amount of Bitcoin (BTC) Grayscale will contribute to the mini fund: 63,204 bitcoin, or 10% of existing assets in GBTC, as per the filing.

Also lol, GBTC currently holds about BTC304k so 63.204 would represent 20% of existing assets. So for GBTC holders 80% @ 1,5%fee, and 20% @ 0,15%fee would still put you at 1,23% overall

Edit: Or to look at it from another angle, they would still have BTC241k (BTC304k - BTC63k) waiting to be liquidated...

Sorry, but it is irrelevant as you don't know the future trajectory of mini.
Example: it could trade at a premium and since GBTC trades with no discount, you still come out ahead. For example, ibit trades between 0.84% discount and 0.98% premium. Same for FBTC.
That's almost 2% range. I know...the snickering must continue regardless of facts, lol.
However, ask yourself: how relevant is this when we go up/down 5% a day?

From what I understand from the link, it's mainly a way to keep customers happy, who are "stuck" in the Grayscale environment if they don't want to pay a lot of taxes.

[bitebits]

The fees are very high, I read that it is because of the launch of something called RUNE, (I don't know what it is about)... but I will probably have to accumulate some BTC from DCA on an exchange before withdrawing... unfortunately. I hope things get back to normal soon.

Does anyone have any alternative to this, of keeping some BTC in an exchange for a while? before withdrawing to the wallet? I don't think there's much to do except wait

Withdraw sats over the Lignting network. Kraken and Cash App support it and even Coinbase is finally working on it. Zero fees and instant, even today.

[Biodom]

Finally

"Grayscale Reveals 0.15% Fees For Its Bitcoin Mini Trust ETF"

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/04/20/grayscale-reveals-015-fees-for-its-bitcoin-mini-trust-etf/

Lol going from 1,5% fee to 0,15% on a mini

and

The filing also provides an illustrative example of the amount of Bitcoin (BTC) Grayscale will contribute to the mini fund: 63,204 bitcoin, or 10% of existing assets in GBTC, as per the filing.

Also lol, GBTC currently holds about BTC304k so 63.204 would represent 20% of existing assets. So for GBTC holders 80% @ 1,5%fee, and 20% @ 0,15%fee would still put you at 1,23% overall

Edit: Or to look at it from another angle, they would still have BTC241k (BTC304k - BTC63k) waiting to be liquidated...

Sorry, but it is irrelevant as you don't know the future trajectory of mini.
Example: it could trade at a premium and since GBTC trades with no discount, you still come out ahead. For example, ibit trades between 0.84% discount and 0.98% premium. Same for FBTC.
That's almost 2% range. I know...the snickering must continue regardless of facts, lol.
However, ask yourself: how relevant is this when we go up/down 5% a day?

etf’s seem to have caused a lot of volatility.

it's possible as this is how major Wall street firms make their "trading" money.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation
Chartbuddy thanks talkimg.com

[DaRude]

Finally

"Grayscale Reveals 0.15% Fees For Its Bitcoin Mini Trust ETF"

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/04/20/grayscale-reveals-015-fees-for-its-bitcoin-mini-trust-etf/

Lol going from 1,5% fee to 0,15% on a mini

and

The filing also provides an illustrative example of the amount of Bitcoin (BTC) Grayscale will contribute to the mini fund: 63,204 bitcoin, or 10% of existing assets in GBTC, as per the filing.

Also lol, GBTC currently holds about BTC304k so 63.204 would represent 20% of existing assets. So for GBTC holders 80% @ 1,5%fee, and 20% @ 0,15%fee would still put you at 1,23% overall

Edit: Or to look at it from another angle, they would still have BTC241k (BTC304k - BTC63k) waiting to be liquidated...

Sorry, but it is irrelevant as you don't know the future trajectory of mini.
Example: it could trade at a premium and since GBTC trades with no discount, you still come out ahead. For example, ibit trades between 0.84% discount and 0.98% premium. Same for FBTC.
That's almost 2% range. I know...the snickering must continue regardless of facts, lol.
However, ask yourself: how relevant is this when we go up/down 5% a day?

Which part is irrelevant exactly? Fee is a fee. Not sure why you're picking extremes in volatility in other funds to further your point? In fact to flip this around, if you time it right you might add 2% profit on other funds by exploiting inefficiencies of their market makers (APs), come in when it trades at a discount and exit at a premium

1,3% savings on fees, is about 1,3% relevant regardless how much underlying is moving.

Finally

"Grayscale Reveals 0.15% Fees For Its Bitcoin Mini Trust ETF"

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/04/20/grayscale-reveals-015-fees-for-its-bitcoin-mini-trust-etf/

Lol going from 1,5% fee to 0,15% on a mini

and

The filing also provides an illustrative example of the amount of Bitcoin (BTC) Grayscale will contribute to the mini fund: 63,204 bitcoin, or 10% of existing assets in GBTC, as per the filing.

Also lol, GBTC currently holds about BTC304k so 63.204 would represent 20% of existing assets. So for GBTC holders 80% @ 1,5%fee, and 20% @ 0,15%fee would still put you at 1,23% overall

Edit: Or to look at it from another angle, they would still have BTC241k (BTC304k - BTC63k) waiting to be liquidated...

Sorry, but it is irrelevant as you don't know the future trajectory of mini.
Example: it could trade at a premium and since GBTC trades with no discount, you still come out ahead. For example, ibit trades between 0.84% discount and 0.98% premium. Same for FBTC.
That's almost 2% range. I know...the snickering must continue regardless of facts, lol.
However, ask yourself: how relevant is this when we go up/down 5% a day?

From what I understand from the link, it's mainly a way to keep customers happy, who are "stuck" in the Grayscale environment if they don't want to pay a lot of taxes.

Hahaha ohh you got me there, yes i'm sure GBTC really cares about keeping their customers happy, you funny, i like you  

Edit: On the bright side we might see a stop on GBTC outflows until mini is listed, meaning price... 

[Biodom]

something annoying, but inevitable (relevant for US only):

https://bitcoinist.com/irs-reveals-preliminary-tax-form-for-digital-assets/
the proposed form itself is here:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-dft/f1099da--dft.pdf

I still don't get it how it 'works' with assets that you transfer 'in' to Coinbase, for example.
how can they determine the cost basis?
Without this, it is meaningless and WILL result in collection errors.
Additionally, they call digital assets "securities", which is strange.

[BitcoinBunny]

When $7.5 million?

[Phil_S]

at jjg the muslim and jewish doctors saved this catholics butt.

congrats on your new butt.

butt transplants are no joke.

not sure why your nose hurts tho.

1. 11/28/2012     $12
2. 07/09/2016     $675
3. 05/11/2020     $9760
4. 20/04/2024     $63,838

20/04/2024 is nice looking date!

Congrats everyone on yet another halving!

[Biodom]

Finally

"Grayscale Reveals 0.15% Fees For Its Bitcoin Mini Trust ETF"

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/04/20/grayscale-reveals-015-fees-for-its-bitcoin-mini-trust-etf/

Lol going from 1,5% fee to 0,15% on a mini

and

The filing also provides an illustrative example of the amount of Bitcoin (BTC) Grayscale will contribute to the mini fund: 63,204 bitcoin, or 10% of existing assets in GBTC, as per the filing.

Also lol, GBTC currently holds about BTC304k so 63.204 would represent 20% of existing assets. So for GBTC holders 80% @ 1,5%fee, and 20% @ 0,15%fee would still put you at 1,23% overall

Edit: Or to look at it from another angle, they would still have BTC241k (BTC304k - BTC63k) waiting to be liquidated...

Sorry, but it is irrelevant as you don't know the future trajectory of mini.
Example: it could trade at a premium and since GBTC trades with no discount, you still come out ahead. For example, ibit trades between 0.84% discount and 0.98% premium. Same for FBTC.
That's almost 2% range. I know...the snickering must continue regardless of facts, lol.
However, ask yourself: how relevant is this when we go up/down 5% a day?

Which part is irrelevant exactly? Fee is a fee. Not sure why you're picking extremes in volatility in other funds to further your point? In fact to flip this around, if you time it right you might add 2% profit on other funds by exploiting inefficiencies of their market makers (APs), come in when it trades at a discount and exit at a premium

1,3% savings on fees, is about 1,3% relevant regardless how much underlying is moving.

Finally

"Grayscale Reveals 0.15% Fees For Its Bitcoin Mini Trust ETF"

https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/04/20/grayscale-reveals-015-fees-for-its-bitcoin-mini-trust-etf/

Lol going from 1,5% fee to 0,15% on a mini

and

The filing also provides an illustrative example of the amount of Bitcoin (BTC) Grayscale will contribute to the mini fund: 63,204 bitcoin, or 10% of existing assets in GBTC, as per the filing.

Also lol, GBTC currently holds about BTC304k so 63.204 would represent 20% of existing assets. So for GBTC holders 80% @ 1,5%fee, and 20% @ 0,15%fee would still put you at 1,23% overall

Edit: Or to look at it from another angle, they would still have BTC241k (BTC304k - BTC63k) waiting to be liquidated...

Sorry, but it is irrelevant as you don't know the future trajectory of mini.
Example: it could trade at a premium and since GBTC trades with no discount, you still come out ahead. For example, ibit trades between 0.84% discount and 0.98% premium. Same for FBTC.
That's almost 2% range. I know...the snickering must continue regardless of facts, lol.
However, ask yourself: how relevant is this when we go up/down 5% a day?

From what I understand from the link, it's mainly a way to keep customers happy, who are "stuck" in the Grayscale environment if they don't want to pay a lot of taxes.

Hahaha ohh you got me there, yes i'm sure GBTC really cares about keeping their customers happy, you funny, i like you  

Edit: On the bright side we might see a stop on GBTC outflows until mini is listed, meaning price...  

Again, there is no discount in GBTC, so, with high volatility, 1.5% A YEAR fee is irrelevant unless you want to keep GBTC position for 5-10 years without trading in or out.
GBTC is largely a nothingburger at this point. The question of high volatility is not, however.

[OutOfMemory]

OT alert... because that's what I do....

You can now all sing along bros. Track released...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg63942210#msg63942210

https://soundcloud.com/sirazimuth/totality6

GO BITCOIN

Totality in Tonality 
I like the production, timbre of voice(s) with those energic accents, clean guitar sound, overall dynamics.
Well done, almost sounds like a live studio recording (on the headphones).

[Biodom]

When $7.5 million?

2035?

However, Jurrien Timmer says that btc may be $100 mil by 2035
https://www.coinspeaker.com/fidelity-bitcoin-btc-100-million-2035/

and 1 billion by 2038:
https://www.coinspeaker.com/bitcoin-worth-1-billion-2038-fidelity/

Of course, $$ will have to lose about 90% of the buying power by then (so, it is more like $100 mil in current $$)