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Question: When will we see a new ATH? (Credit to: Biodom)
2019 - 14 (9.7%)
Early 2020 - 32 (22.2%)
Late 2020 - 44 (30.6%)
Early 2021 - 11 (7.6%)
Late 2021 - 21 (14.6%)
2022 - 3 (2.1%)
2023 - 0 (0%)
2024 - 4 (2.8%)
After 2024 - 3 (2.1%)
Never - 12 (8.3%)
Total Voters: 144

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 21428000 times)
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Coinseeker
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May 20, 2013, 06:49:26 PM
 #9781

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Ripple
i think we all should do some home work

from what i've read ripple can become a powerful tool. and bitcoin would be better off if every bitcoiner knew exactly what it is all about and how to use it.

 

I'm not claiming to have full technical knowledge of Ripple (but neither do I have that level of knowledge of Bitcoin), but I do know enough about it to believe that the arguments in defense of it all seemed to ignore one basic problem many bitcoin followers have: it's centralized, and there is no indication that this will ever change.

Really, because they've said as much repeatedly.  Ripple will be decentralized.  Period.  If upon coming out of beta, it's not decentralized, all those arguments will be valid and I will join the chorus.  

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May 20, 2013, 06:50:55 PM
 #9782

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Ripple
i think we all should do some home work

from what i've read ripple can become a powerful tool. and bitcoin would be better off if every bitcoiner knew exactly what it is all about and how to use it.

 

I'm not claiming to have full technical knowledge of Ripple (but neither do I have that level of knowledge of Bitcoin), but I do know enough about it to believe that the arguments in defense of it all seemed to ignore one basic problem many bitcoin followers have: it's centralized, and there is no indication that this will ever change.

Rampion's post is an excellent summary of why I don't trust, and don't feel like supporting Ripple (I agree with everything except the last paragraph about the founders "cashing out". They will never do such a thing, as it would instaneously destroy their wealth in the process).

If you feel that anyone who's critical of Ripple is just (consciously or not) trying to defend his own get-rich stake in Bitcoin, then I guess I can't really argue any further.

Oda, I know it's unlikely they will suddenly "cash out" - it's just an extreme example of how much trust you have to place in OpenCoin to hold Ripples.

We all know that the very first Bitcoin purpose is to solve the trust issue.
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May 20, 2013, 06:51:13 PM
Last edit: May 20, 2013, 07:01:16 PM by Coinseeker
 #9783


And think about this: OpenCoin will hold to 50% of the total Ripples created. You need to grant them a LOT of trust to place money in XRPs. They can crash the market with a fart, and they may be very well decide to hold onto 80% on the XRPs. Or to 90%. They won't tell you, because they don't know, they will just do what it suits best to them.

Now compare that shit with BTC, my friend.

You only need to trust them if you hold XRP. Who cares if the XRP market crashes when you're using Ripple as a distributed cryptocurrency exchange?

What are you talking about? You do not exchange cryptocurrency in Ripple. You exchange a) XRP's or b) other cryptocurrencies IOU's

IOU's which owner can default or decide not to honor them. Only thing which is not an IOU in Ripple are Ripples - quite convenient for OpenCoin, don't you think so?

You have no idea what you're talking about.  You're just regurgitating Tradeforest talking points and you're not even doing a good job of it.   Roll Eyes

I'll leave you ideological nuts to stew in your insecurities and butt hurt.  You should have fixed Bitcoin and now it may be too late.  That's your fault, not Ripple's.

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May 20, 2013, 06:58:13 PM
 #9784

A Ripple flamewar in a Bitcoin wall observer thread, well done guys. Are we that bored?
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May 20, 2013, 06:59:26 PM
 #9785


And think about this: OpenCoin will hold to 50% of the total Ripples created. You need to grant them a LOT of trust to place money in XRPs. They can crash the market with a fart, and they may be very well decide to hold onto 80% on the XRPs. Or to 90%. They won't tell you, because they don't know, they will just do what it suits best to them.

Now compare that shit with BTC, my friend.

You only need to trust them if you hold XRP. Who cares if the XRP market crashes when you're using Ripple as a distributed cryptocurrency exchange?

What are you talking about? You do not exchange cryptocurrency in Ripple. You exchange a) XRP's or b) other cryptocurrencies IOU's

IOU's which owner can default or decide not to honor them. Only thing which is not an IOU in Ripple are Ripples - quite convenient for OpenCoin, don't you think so?

You have no idea what you're talking about.  You're just regurgitating Tradeforest talking posts and you're not even doing a good job of it.   Roll Eyes

Sorry? I'm using Ripple. I've been trading real money in there, as I wanted to understand it. I sent REAL BTC to Bitstamp, and they sent me BTC IOU's to Ripple. Yeah, my BTC never left the Bitstamp BTC address - they are holding them, and they sent BTC IOU's to Ripple, but they can actually do whatever they want with my BTC. They can spend them, and I would still have the BTC IOU's on Ripple. Then, Bitstamp can decide if they honor or not the IOU's they sent to my Ripple address.

Yeah: welcome to fractional reserve, welcome to creating money out of thin air.

After receiving my BTC IOU's from Bitstamp, I exchanged them for USD IOU's - and then exchanged the USD IOU's for Ripples.

The only asset you hold in Ripple are Ripples. The rest, is debt (IOU's), which issuer can decide to honor or not.
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May 20, 2013, 07:01:45 PM
 #9786

I have to say that after being at the conference, talking with the Ripple guys (who did a really valient job of trying to explain to everyone how it works) I still don't understand how it works. To my credit, most people at the conference said they don't understand it. Including some of the core bitcoin dev's and a number of other talented programmers in the bitcoin world. Indeed, no one I spoke to said they really understood how it works.

So, to quote one guy at the conference: "It should make you nervous that you don't understand it".

That's my position on it for now. Speculatively it looks interesting, but the fact that I don't understand it, and guys much smarter and more experienced then myself don't understand it, makes me skeptical of it's future.
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May 20, 2013, 07:07:10 PM
 #9787


And think about this: OpenCoin will hold to 50% of the total Ripples created. You need to grant them a LOT of trust to place money in XRPs. They can crash the market with a fart, and they may be very well decide to hold onto 80% on the XRPs. Or to 90%. They won't tell you, because they don't know, they will just do what it suits best to them.

Now compare that shit with BTC, my friend.

You only need to trust them if you hold XRP. Who cares if the XRP market crashes when you're using Ripple as a distributed cryptocurrency exchange?

What are you talking about? You do not exchange cryptocurrency in Ripple. You exchange a) XRP's or b) other cryptocurrencies IOU's

IOU's which owner can default or decide not to honor them. Only thing which is not an IOU in Ripple are Ripples - quite convenient for OpenCoin, don't you think so?

You have no idea what you're talking about.  You're just regurgitating Tradeforest talking posts and you're not even doing a good job of it.   Roll Eyes

Sorry? I'm using Ripple. I've been trading real money in there, as I wanted to understand it. I sent REAL BTC to Bitstamp, and they sent me BTC IOU's to Ripple. Yeah, my BTC never left the Bitstamp BTC address - they are holding them, and they sent BTC IOU's to Ripple, but they can actually do whatever they want with my BTC. They can spend them, and I would still have the BTC IOU's on Ripple. Then, Bitstamp can decide if they honor or not the IOU's they sent to my Ripple address.

Yeah: welcome to fractional reserve, welcome to creating money out of thin air.

After receiving my BTC IOU's from Bitstamp, I exchanged them for USD IOU's - and then exchanged the USD IOU's for Ripples.

The only asset you hold in Ripple are Ripples. The rest, is debt (IOU's), which issuer can decide to honor or not.

The question is do you trust your gateway or not?  What's stopping you from sending your BTC's back to your wallet?  Nothing...just send the IOU's back first.  I've been using it too and it works just fine for me.  I can sell BTC's in the Ripple client, send the fiat to Bitstamp, buy more BTC.  Imagine when Gox comes on board, you won't have the spreads across different exchanges because you can immediately exploit the differences because you can move fiat or BTC, wherever you choose, for next to nothing.  

Without Ripple, if you're trading on Gox, you trust Gox with your fiat and BTC, right?  How is that any different?  Gox doesn't have to pay you.  They can run away with your money at anytime they want, so your argument is ridiculous.
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May 20, 2013, 07:08:11 PM
 #9788

It's the third time I tell you, Coinseeker: you do not understand Bitcoin. You do not understand its deep revolutionary implications. Bitcoin is meant to set you free, while Ripple is meant for their creators to be rich.

Can you bring this sort of crap over to the bitcoin discussion forum or alternative crypto...or something? If you're going to get on a soapbox here, make it about why your speculative analysis is right... not why we should "believe in bitcoin."
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May 20, 2013, 07:10:12 PM
 #9789

I have to say that after being at the conference, talking with the Ripple guys (who did a really valient job of trying to explain to everyone how it works) I still don't understand how it works. To my credit, most people at the conference said they don't understand it. Including some of the core bitcoin dev's and a number of other talented programmers in the bitcoin world. Indeed, no one I spoke to said they really understood how it work.

 So, to quote one guy at the conference: "It should make you nervous that you don't understand it".

That's my position on it for now. Speculatively it looks interesting, but the fact that I don't understand it, and guys much smarter and more experienced then myself don't understand it, makes me skeptical of it's future.

Man, I now understand it very well. It's a reproduction of the old banking system. If you are trusted (in Ripple, you are a Gateway), you issue IOU's: if you issue IOU's which are not backed by real assets... Well, that's how it is in debt-based systems. You just incur in more debt to cover the holes, and if you don't, you default.

Example:

1) You deposit BTC to Bitstamp (the only "official" Gateway ATM)
2) You grant trust to Bitstamp inside Ripple
3) You "send" your BTC from Bitstamp to your Ripple account: your BTC never leave Bitstamp, they just send a "piece of paper" (IOU) saying that they owe you 10BTC
4) You can trade those IOUs inside Ripple, you can pay for goods, etc.

I hope you grasp the very negative incentives that Bitstamp could have - again, they are virtually able to create money from thin air. They could "lend" you money they don't have against a commission (as the fucking banks we want to get rid of do). This is what TradeFortress is doing - people gave him "trusted" status, so he can virtually create money (455 BTC up to date) - because inside Ripple you just trade IOU's - the only thing is not a IOU are Ripples.

Fucked up system if you ask me. We already have a bank system. And we want to get rid of it.
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May 20, 2013, 07:10:22 PM
 #9790

This is a true statement.  Pure speculation is driving XRP prices.  There is no justification for it other than greed.

And there's no justification for greed... except for human nature, so is that a design flaw? Could people be bidding XRP up because Ripple itself is difficult to understand?

Anyway, I believe I understand it, and I am unmoved by the anti Ripple arguments based on ideology or pre-mining, but I think it is even harder to explain to consumers than Bitcoin.

Coinseeker, can you summarize why you believe Ripple is iTunes in your analogy? IMO, iTunes was successful because it made it dead SIMPLE to purchase digital music at fair prices, not to mention it was tied to an incredibly well designed piece of hardware, and backed by a monstrous ad campaign. If you agree, how exactly does Ripple change the game like iTunes did?

I'm genuinely curious as I have no dog in the fight (never mined anything), and while I believe in Bitcoin, I'm certainly no fundamentalist.
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May 20, 2013, 07:11:38 PM
 #9791

...
Personally, I wouldn't trust anyone but a gateway.  
^^ Cheesy
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May 20, 2013, 07:13:27 PM
 #9792

It's the third time I tell you, Coinseeker: you do not understand Bitcoin. You do not understand its deep revolutionary implications. Bitcoin is meant to set you free, while Ripple is meant for their creators to be rich.

Can you bring this sort of crap over to the bitcoin discussion forum or alternative crypto...or something? If you're going to get on a soapbox here, make it about why your speculative analysis is right... not why we should "believe in bitcoin."

Maybe if you actually went after those who were talking this nonsense to begin with, I'd listen to you.  But you've proven your bias against me personally so...

NO!
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May 20, 2013, 07:18:14 PM
 #9793

It's the third time I tell you, Coinseeker: you do not understand Bitcoin. You do not understand its deep revolutionary implications. Bitcoin is meant to set you free, while Ripple is meant for their creators to be rich.

Can you bring this sort of crap over to the bitcoin discussion forum or alternative crypto...or something? If you're going to get on a soapbox here, make it about why your speculative analysis is right... not why we should "believe in bitcoin."

Maybe if you actually went after those who were talking this nonsense to begin with, I'd listen to you.  But you've proven your bias against me personally so...

NO!

wat 

:facepalm:
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May 20, 2013, 07:25:11 PM
 #9794

This is a true statement.  Pure speculation is driving XRP prices.  There is no justification for it other than greed.

And there's no justification for greed... except for human nature, so is that a design flaw? Could people be bidding XRP up because Ripple itself is difficult to understand?

Anyway, I believe I understand it, and I am unmoved by the anti Ripple arguments based on ideology or pre-mining, but I think it is even harder to explain to consumers than Bitcoin.

Coinseeker, can you summarize why you believe Ripple is iTunes in your analogy? IMO, iTunes was successful because it made it dead SIMPLE to purchase digital music at fair prices, not to mention it was tied to an incredibly well designed piece of hardware, and backed by a monstrous ad campaign. If you agree, how exactly does Ripple change the game like iTunes did?

I'm genuinely curious as I have no dog in the fight (never mined anything), and while I believe in Bitcoin, I'm certainly no fundamentalist.

What I mean when I use that analogy is that Napster started the music download revolution but in the end was killed and it was iTunes that came in and did it the right way.

The foundation of Bitcoin is solid but it's full of flaws the Bitcoin community refuses to address.  Add to that, the continued refusal (As if it would even be possible to avoid) to submit to regulations.  This will kill bitcoin on a mass adoption scale faster than anything.  

Ripple, like iTunes is prepared to play nice and work within the confines of the law.  Not to mention, doing all the things Bitcoin could have done, but didn't. For instance:

Imagine, Bitstamp, Gox and all the exchanges as Gateways.  Then add Paypal, Bank of america, Citi Bank and any bank worldwide you can think of.  In time, you can use ANY of them as your gateway to move fiat and BTC.  You can also choose to NOT extend trust to any of them you choose.  This gives the power back to the people.  

I could theoretically buy BTC via paypal and send it to Gox.  Then I could sell that BTC at Gox and send Euros to some bank in the UK.  I can choose how and who I trust and when and where I utilize the gateways.  Now this is a simplified version as Ripple is in between these transfers but the cost from ripple is .00001 or something like that. It's like nothing.  This is what XRP's are for.  To pay transaction fees.  The average user wont need thousands of XRP.  The biggest fees are going to come from the gateways, which they already charge too much, IMO.
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May 20, 2013, 07:25:37 PM
 #9795

It's the third time I tell you, Coinseeker: you do not understand Bitcoin. You do not understand its deep revolutionary implications. Bitcoin is meant to set you free, while Ripple is meant for their creators to be rich.

Can you bring this sort of crap over to the bitcoin discussion forum or alternative crypto...or something? If you're going to get on a soapbox here, make it about why your speculative analysis is right... not why we should "believe in bitcoin."

Maybe if you actually went after those who were talking this nonsense to begin with, I'd listen to you.  But you've proven your bias against me personally so...

NO!

wat  

:facepalm:
What?  Ignore list.
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May 20, 2013, 07:32:26 PM
 #9796

I have to say that after being at the conference, talking with the Ripple guys (who did a really valient job of trying to explain to everyone how it works) I still don't understand how it works. To my credit, most people at the conference said they don't understand it. Including some of the core bitcoin dev's and a number of other talented programmers in the bitcoin world. Indeed, no one I spoke to said they really understood how it works.

So, to quote one guy at the conference: "It should make you nervous that you don't understand it".

That's my position on it for now. Speculatively it looks interesting, but the fact that I don't understand it, and guys much smarter and more experienced then myself don't understand it, makes me skeptical of it's future.

Ditto. Was at a Bitcoin meetup last week talking about Ripple, and ive listened to that LetsTalkBitcoin edition of explaining Ripple. Still dont get it, and now dont want to.
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May 20, 2013, 07:36:13 PM
 #9797

What I mean when I use that analogy is that Napster started the music download revolution but in the end was killed and it was iTunes that came in and did it the right way.

The foundation of Bitcoin is solid but it's full of flaws the Bitcoin community refuses to address.  Add to that, the continued refusal (As if it would even be possible to avoid) to submit to regulations.  This will kill bitcoin on a mass adoption scale faster than anything.  

Ripple, like iTunes is prepared to play nice and work within the confines of the law.  Not to mention, doing all the things Bitcoin could have done, but didn't.
Regulation is a problem mkay? Bitcoin was made to solve this problem. You want regulation? Just use the banks, use paypal, use the now dead e-gold.

How you can talk about regulations as something necessary to bring bitcoin mainstream is beyond me. That invalidates the whole point of bitcoin in the first place and it makes me wonder what you are doing here.
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May 20, 2013, 07:39:56 PM
 #9798

What I mean when I use that analogy is that Napster started the music download revolution but in the end was killed and it was iTunes that came in and did it the right way.

The foundation of Bitcoin is solid but it's full of flaws the Bitcoin community refuses to address.  Add to that, the continued refusal (As if it would even be possible to avoid) to submit to regulations.  This will kill bitcoin on a mass adoption scale faster than anything.  

Ripple, like iTunes is prepared to play nice and work within the confines of the law.  Not to mention, doing all the things Bitcoin could have done, but didn't.
Regulation is a problem mkay? Bitcoin was made to solve this problem. You want regulation? Just use the banks, use paypal, use the now dead e-gold.

How you can talk about regulations as something necessary to bring bitcoin mainstream is beyond me. That invalidates the whole point of bitcoin in the first place and it makes me wonder what you are doing here.

Why use Paypal when I can have incredibly low transaction fees?  Makes no sense.  It might invalidate YOUR view of Bitcoin but that's not what it's going to be moving forward.  We'll regulate it or we'll kill it.  Meaning blackball it from any mainstream existence and reduce it to a black market only currency that legitamate business wont touch with a 10 foot pole.  

You ideological guys better wake up out of your delusions because the crypto train is leaving and you guys don't even seem to have a ticket bought for the future.  I'm done with this convo in this thread.  There's plenty of Ripple threads out there and anyone looking for genuine Ripple info can visit the Ripple forums.
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May 20, 2013, 07:43:58 PM
 #9799

This is what TradeFortress is doing - people gave him "trusted" status, so he can virtually create money (455 BTC up to date) - because inside Ripple you just trade IOU's - the only thing is not a IOU are Ripples.

This thread from TradeFortress finally made me understand Ripple, especially the last part of the thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206948.msg2209470#msg2209470 where web3er got his 10.15 Bitstamp-BTC exchanged for worthless TradeFortress-BTC because he basically told the Ripple-System that for him any Fortress-BTC are equally good as Bitstamp-BTC. And so the system automatically took his Bitstamp and gave him TradeFortress in exchange when the system needed some Bitstamp instead of TradeFortress on someone else's behalf. Highly educational thread! Recommended to read. This made me finally understand how Ripple works.
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May 20, 2013, 07:44:58 PM
 #9800

You want to understand Ripple, this guy know his stuff.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=211068.0
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