Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

people who like to talk a lot about illegal things on the internet should be careful that it doesn't just 'appear' on their computers someday (with a knock at the door) ... things like that happen.

quoted

People who treaten other people in the internet should be careful too 

It was a threat

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[1714135860]

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[tomothy]

My point was that it was incorrect assumption because payment processors do help merchants take payment from other currencies including BTC.
The example argued that was used did not acknowledge that even if product is priced in USD does not mean that you can't pay for it with other currencies, like CAD, BRL, CNY, YEN, BTC as long as they payment processor used by the merchant takes said payment.

It is not just a matter of definitions.  

Dell USA has bank accounts.  In those bank accounts there are only dollars, not JPYs or BRLs, and one can only deposit dollars in them.  dell does not have a receiving blockchain address, or a bitcoin-denominated account in some bitcoin service.  They have an account at BitPay, but they do not keep bitcoins there.  Like most merchants that "accept bitcoin", when a customer chooses to "pay with bitcoin":

* the customer is redirected to a BitPay page, and the merchant tells BitPay the price in USD;
* BitPay computes the amount of bitcoin needed and displays that to the customer;
* the customer issues a blockchain transaction request that sends the bitcoins to BitPay;
* BitPay checks whether that transaction request is valid and has propagated to enough nodes;
* Bitpay tells the merchant that the customer paid the specified USD amount;
* the merchant trusts Bitpay and tells the customer "payment received, purchase successful";
* at the end of that day, Bitpay wires the USD amount to the merchant's bank account;
* eventually the bitcoin deposit into BitPay's wallet is confirmed by the network;
* sometime later, Bitpay sells those bitcoins to replenish their USD reserves.

Note that at no time the merchant had possession of the bitcoins.  

To be honest you are assuming that they are not keeping a % of the payment in BTC with their payment processor.

Also what is important to note is that BTC like USD,CAD,YEN,CHY,GBP and any other currency is being accepted for payment

I think it could be close minded to assume that large corporations do not hedge against currency fluctuations. In and by doing so they need to convert between various currencies. Once sufficient instruments are in place btc could be used to move funds  internally between a corporations different subsidiaries. The placeholder is what I see as being crucial.

[JorgeStolfi]

To be honest you are assuming that they are not keeping a % of the payment in BTC with their payment processor.

Some merchants may do that (just as some merchants actuall accept bitcoin directly, without BitPay's intermediation).  But I am pretty sure that Dell, Microsoft, Wikipedia, etc. do not.  Handling bitcoins requires extra work from accoutants, which is not worth the amount of payment received.  Losses from bitcoin price variations (as Overstock and Fortress suffered) would have to be reported in the quarterly reports, and would be hard to justify to stockholders.

Also what is important to note is that BTC like USD,CAD,YEN,CHY,GBP and any other currency is being accepted for payment

SIgh.  No, it is not the same thing.  Dell USA does accept USD, because you can wire USD to their bank account directly. They do not accept CAD,YEN,CHY,GBP nor BTC, and you cannot send them any of those currencies directly; you must send them to some other company, that converts them to USD and sends the USD to Dell.

[Spaceman_Spiff]

To be honest you are assuming that they are not keeping a % of the payment in BTC with their payment processor.

Some merchants may do that (just as some merchants actuall accept bitcoin directly, without BitPay's intermediation).  But I am pretty sure that Dell, Microsoft, Wikipedia, etc. do not.  Handling bitcoins requires extra work from accoutants, which is not worth the amount of payment received.  Losses from bitcoin price variations (as Overstock and Fortress suffered) would have to be reported in the quarterly reports, and would be hard to justify to stockholders.

Also what is important to note is that BTC like USD,CAD,YEN,CHY,GBP and any other currency is being accepted for payment

SIgh.  No, it is not the same thing.  Dell USA does accept USD, because you can wire USD to their bank account directly. They do not accept CAD,YEN,CHY,GBP nor BTC, and you cannot send them any of those currencies directly; you must send them to some other company, that converts them to USD and sends the USD to Dell.

Jorge, can't you see that we are arguing about what 'accepting' means?  Everybody agrees about the model, the underlying chain of events that takes place during and after a payment (if a company chooses to get paid fully in fiat).  It's just that when a company allows you to pay for products in BTC, I call that "accepting BTC", whereas for you "accepting" apparently means whatever you are getting paid by the payment processor at the end of the process.  

[dropt]

Straws: grasp at them.

[Sitarow]

9:42PM EST


10:22PM EST

[epilido]

.

Jorge,

What metric would you use to consider bitcoin a success?

I mean a minimum success you would think about personal use.

Is there a daily equivalent a USD transacted that equals minimum success or a number of transactions (excluding change if that could be quantified)?

What about use for the supply chain? I.e. sell goods for btc and pay for wages or purchase supplies with that btc

[YourMother]

Lucky i have moré pressing business in the country where they kill bulls for fun



and this stupid tablet is creating moré náusea than bitcoin, otherwise i'd stick these Beanie Babies right up that little funky ass of yours.

Oh

"First, the shadowy stuff. Ross Ulbricht, a developer who prosectors said went by the pseudonym “Dread Pirate Roberts” online and ran a $1.2 billion black market bazaar for illegal goods, was convicted of all seven counts against him, including money laundering and running a criminal enterprise. Bloomberg reported that the jury took just three hours to reach its decision in the case, which was heard in federal court in New York."

- Has anyone managed to recreate that 1.2billion market and will it be ever possible, now that there aré much more improved tools for taint analysis?

In 2014 this irreversible trash currency has failed at becoming at least a tipping currency and this alone should tell you that there's no interest in it other than to hoard it and expect to get rich fast if, of course, dumbskier people than you choose to participate in the pyramid, and you still wanna talk about mass adoption, huh?

Oh
http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/04/fools-and-their-bitcoin/

"We trust a strange man-child in Japan with hundreds of our BTC. We speculate on a currency that has no intrinsic value outside of its mere existence. Watch as “exchanges” are born and die mostly because of programmer error..."

One year later and the article is still relevant

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[JimboToronto]

Only bitcoiners consider bubble/P&D cycles as "natural behaviour and growth of a promising investment".

Only Trader cultists compare Bitcoin to stocks, penny or otherwise.

I don't see why not.
It's an asset that can be traded and is subject to supply/demand dynamics like any other asset.

Every chart tells you a story, and the all time bitcoin chart and his bubble cycles tell you something ugly.

I suppose if you treat Bitcoin as a mere asset, it's easy to think of it as some kind of tradeable commodity, rather than disruptive technology. Bitcoin the disruptive technology is much more than bitcoins, the commodity though.

If Bitcoin were an enterprise, its IPO would still be years away. Of course the charts look ugly compared established commodities like metals, agricultural products or foreign currencies, or publicly traded shares of the kind of established businesses whose shares are already traded on exchanges. The wild "bubble"-like price fluctuations are typical of new enterprises still in the domain of angels and VCs. By the time most new endeavors reach the point of public offerings, the bumps have been smoothed out.

[JorgeStolfi]

Jorge,
What metric would you use to consider bitcoin a success?
I mean a minimum success you would think about personal use.
Is there a daily equivalent a USD transacted that equals minimum success or a number of transactions (excluding change if that could be quantified)?
What about use for the supply chain? I.e. sell goods for btc and pay for wages or purchase supplies with that btc

I was asked this soon after I started posting here, and my answer is still basically the same:

Bitcoin will be a success (as a currency) when a significant number of people spontaneously choose it to pay for legal purchases, because it is better for them than the alternatives. "Better" may include cheaper, safer, simpler, faster, or any other operational advantage.  But I would not count people who use it just out of curiosity, because they are invested in bitcoins, for political/ideological reasons, or because they are interested in the technology.

I don't see that happening yet.

However, since then I have come to realize that bitcoin was never intended for large-scale use, but only to test whether the solution proposed by Satoshi to the "distributed ledger problem" (block reward + proof-of-work + longest-chain-wins) would indeed motivate the miners to maintain the ledger and protect it from malicious attacks.  The experiment has been running for 6 years, which is remarkable; but it exposed one flaw -- the centralization of mining -- which may require another genial idea to solve.

[Sitarow]

Jorge,
What metric would you use to consider bitcoin a success?
I mean a minimum success you would think about personal use.
Is there a daily equivalent a USD transacted that equals minimum success or a number of transactions (excluding change if that could be quantified)?
What about use for the supply chain? I.e. sell goods for btc and pay for wages or purchase supplies with that btc

I was asked this soon after I started posting here, and my answer is still basically the same:

Bitcoin will be a success (as a currency) when a significant number of people spontaneously choose it to pay for legal purchases, because it is better for them than the alternatives. "Better" may include cheaper, safer, simpler, faster, or any other operational advantage.  But I would not count people who use it just out of curiosity, because they are invested in bitcoins, for political/ideological reasons, or because they are interested in the technology.

I don't see that happening yet.

However, since then I have come to realize that bitcoin was never intended for large-scale use, but only to test whether the solution proposed by Satoshi to the "distributed ledger problem" (block reward + proof-of-work + longest-chain-wins) would indeed motivate the miners to maintain the ledger and protect it from malicious attacks.  The experiment has been running for 6 years, which is remarkable; but it exposed one flaw -- the centralization of mining -- which may require another genial idea to solve.

Some possibilities have been suggested, however I will wait and see how the block size increase will effect the network first.

Yet if carbon credits and taxation ever take a foothold that would be an immediate deterrent for centralized mining.

[Sitarow]

no pump and no dump on weekend?

It is starting to get too boring

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[cbeast]

Jorge,
What metric would you use to consider bitcoin a success?
I mean a minimum success you would think about personal use.
Is there a daily equivalent a USD transacted that equals minimum success or a number of transactions (excluding change if that could be quantified)?
What about use for the supply chain? I.e. sell goods for btc and pay for wages or purchase supplies with that btc

I was asked this soon after I started posting here, and my answer is still basically the same:

Bitcoin will be a success (as a currency) when a significant number of people spontaneously choose it to pay for legal purchases, because it is better for them than the alternatives. "Better" may include cheaper, safer, simpler, faster, or any other operational advantage.  

Here's another fallacy: cart before the horse
It is in fact cheaper for online transactions, safer for protecting your identity, simpler for international transactions, faster for online payments, and more secure

But I would not count people who use it just out of curiosity, because they are invested in bitcoins, for political/ideological reasons, or because they are interested in the technology.

That's why VCs are wealthy and you are not. They recognize the value of ideas and help them get executed, while you troll.

I don't see that happening yet.

But I'm sure your hindsight will be 20/20

However, since then I have come to realize that bitcoin was never intended for large-scale use, 

Yes he addressed scaling in the whitepaper.

but only to test whether the solution proposed by Satoshi to the "distributed ledger problem" (block reward + proof-of-work + longest-chain-wins) would indeed motivate the miners to maintain the ledger and protect it from malicious attacks.

The experiment has been running for 6 years, which is remarkable; but it exposed one flaw -- the centralization of mining -- which may require another genial idea to solve.

You are contradicting yourself here. You say the ledger is protected from attacks and then say it is threatened by centralization. Satoshi addressed this in the white paper as well.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[yefi]

Bitcoin will be a success (as a currency) when a significant number of people spontaneously choose it to pay for legal purchases, because it is better for them than the alternatives. "Better" may include cheaper, safer, simpler, faster, or any other operational advantage.  But I would not count people who use it just out of curiosity, because they are invested in bitcoins, for political/ideological reasons, or because they are interested in the technology.

As a jealously guarded jewel, Bitcoin is doing much better.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[JorgeStolfi]

It is in fact cheaper for online transactions, safer for protecting your identity, simpler for international transactions, faster for online payments, and more secure

Yeah, how stupid are people for not seeing that.

[octaft]

Trim down these quotes, jesus christ! Did I seriously just see some guy quote like 9 nested posts to ask what the name of a wallet app (that was only pictured in one of them) was?!