Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Wandererfromthenorth]

What I meant is that "bitcoin insurance" can probably only be what circle and coinbase are offering, basically telling people that "it's all insured" but if your computer/account gets hacked you are screwed and they don't give you a penny.
Considering bitcoin is irreversible and all, good luck with actual consumer protection.

I think you have a very curious idea of what insurance actually is, and you're inventing some weird troll-y fiction to support a completely artificial view of insurance.

If the risks can be reasonably quantified through actuarial analysis, there can be insurance. Stolen cars aren't exactly always reversible.

Just pointing out that what Coinbase and Circle are currently claiming to have as "insurance" is pointless (and kind of a lie), considering bitcoin and its frictionless nature as money (perfect for scammers/hackers/thieves). Not the same as a bank account.

[empowering]

http://www.coindesk.com/cyberinsurance-pioneer-bitgo-insurance/

Insurance will soon be commonplace, for most/all Bitcoin related business.

Get used to it.

Like Coinbase and Circle pseudo-insurance?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=960437.msg10517604#msg10517604

No... like insurance veterans getting into the Bitcoin space and providing insurance.

If I had meant coinbase and circle, I would have posted that. 

What I meant is that "bitcoin insurance" can probably only be what circle and coinbase are offering, basically telling people that "it's all insured" but if your computer/account gets hacked you are screwed and they don't give you a penny.
Considering bitcoin is irreversible and all, good luck with actual consumer protection.

I know what you meant.

I disagree with the "can probably only be what circle and coinbase are offering"

Hence my post...

I do believe that insurance companies will continue to develop and interact with the ever evolving digital payments space, why would they not? insurance companies are having to constantly adapt. Also maybe they will not cover you if your computer gets hacked, maybe they will eventually, as it is going to become more of a problem in the future, but they almost certainly will provide insurance for accounts held with reputable companies with adequate infrastructure and security that has met their underwriting needs, and protect consumers funds.

I do not pretend to have a crystal ball.

However I do believe that things change, and can change quickly (including the fate of BTC) and the world is going to change immensely in the next 25 years, without a doubt.  Bitcoin may be part of that, and it may not.
Insurance companies will be a part of that, and will adapt to whatever technology throws them (at a service level that we are used to by insurance companies, i.e it works, but they always have the house advantage)

Insurance companies are currently preparing to provide cover to services that do not even exist in the mainstream just yet, or are in the process of being rolled out, apart from anything else, they need to stay relevant, in the light of incoming developments in technology. While insuring various upcoming technologies will earn insurance companies lots of money, some will take profits away from them (driverless cars) so it pays them to adapt and provide their services to the market as it adapts.

Insuring Bitcoin will be no different.


 

[Morecoin Freeman]

Ah cool thanks for your analysis.

(This forum has become much better with Lambchop and NHJT ignored).

[empowering]

What I meant is that "bitcoin insurance" can probably only be what circle and coinbase are offering, basically telling people that "it's all insured" but if your computer/account gets hacked you are screwed and they don't give you a penny.
Considering bitcoin is irreversible and all, good luck with actual consumer protection.

If I let my computer get hacked, and the thieves empty my fiat bank account, I'm screwed, too. No difference.

One of my neighbours had her bank card stolen after she went to an ATM. The thieves had seen her typing in her code. She got nothing from the bank.

Sounds like utter bullshit.  What country do you live in?

I have a friend here in the UK, that used a ATM machine that had a card reader inserted into it (and lost money) she was not covered either.

[NotLambchop]

^Wut

[KryptoFoo]

Bitcoin is the next internet, says bank of england
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/11434904/Bitcoin-revolution-could-be-the-next-internet-says-Bank-of-England.html

Not to be outdone, venture beat reports that it will be bigger than the internet
http://venturebeat.com/2015/02/16/heres-why-bitcoin-will-be-bigger-than-the-internet/

But seriously, we now have two major governmental bodies discussiing the positive potential of cryptocurrency. In addition, it sure feels like popular media has been very bitcoin bullish. Good for bitcoin. Good for price*.


*full disclosure, I am long. Fooled you?

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[silverfuture]

Considering bitcoin is irreversible and all, good luck with actual consumer protection.

OMG! It's irreversible like the cash you pay in a brick and mortar! There is NO WAY consumer protection could exist with bitcoin.  

Oh wait!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/mainstream-consumer-protection-meets-bitcoin-100900458.html

February 13th, 2014 -- While Bitcoin has been exploding worldwide, many have argued that for Bitcoin to reach the next level of mainstream adoption there needs to be a mechanism to protect Bitcoin users from scams and fraudsters. New innovative open source start-up Bitrated is doing just that – bringing the standards of consumer protection customers have come to expect from legacy payment systems to Bitcoiners worldwide. In a world first Bitrated offers consumer protection for the safe purchasing of Bitcoin and other goods with Bitcoin, an open arbitration marketplace, buyer fraud protection mechanisms, niche experts and more.

Are you even aware of what day of the week it is?

No wonder you are a wanderer  

[KryptoFoo]

Another tick in the positive column.  
 
‘Out-dated’ Wall Street technology gets a bitcoin-inspired fuel-injection

http://www.bizjournals.com/newyork/news/2015/02/25/out-dated-wall-street-technology-gets-a-bitcoin.html

New York City-based Coinsetter, has unveiled Project Highline, a bitcoin-inspired technology that could change the way investors trade.
"What Project Highline is basically doing is ripping out the current settlement rails that are used in prime brokerage and trade settlements, and instead we're replacing it with a more peer-to-peer type system based on the blockchain"

[NotLambchop]

What I meant is that "bitcoin insurance" can probably only be what circle and coinbase are offering, basically telling people that "it's all insured" but if your computer/account gets hacked you are screwed and they don't give you a penny.
Considering bitcoin is irreversible and all, good luck with actual consumer protection.

If I let my computer get hacked, and the thieves empty my fiat bank account, I'm screwed, too. No difference.

One of my neighbours had her bank card stolen after she went to an ATM. The thieves had seen her typing in her code. She got nothing from the bank.

Sounds like utter bullshit.  What country do you live in?

I have a friend here in the UK, that used a ATM machine that had a card reader inserted into it, she was not covered either.

Your neighbor, who is now your friend, got her card stolen [presumably after the thieves have seen her type in the pin]?  Sounds legit.  
You sure your friend is your friend, and not just another Bitcoin scammer?

[Wandererfromthenorth]

Considering bitcoin is irreversible and all, good luck with actual consumer protection.

OMG! It's irreversible like the cash you pay in a brick and mortar! There is NO WAY consumer protection could exist with bitcoin.  

Oh wait!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/mainstream-consumer-protection-meets-bitcoin-100900458.html

February 13th, 2014 -- While Bitcoin has been exploding worldwide, many have argued that for Bitcoin to reach the next level of mainstream adoption there needs to be a mechanism to protect Bitcoin users from scams and fraudsters. New innovative open source start-up Bitrated is doing just that – bringing the standards of consumer protection customers have come to expect from legacy payment systems to Bitcoiners worldwide. In a world first Bitrated offers consumer protection for the safe purchasing of Bitcoin and other goods with Bitcoin, an open arbitration marketplace, buyer fraud protection mechanisms, niche experts and more.

Are you even aware of what day of the week it is?

No wonder you are a wanderer  

Calm down, cultist. You are a little nervous.

I read this thing and I see "trusted third party". I thought bitcoin was supposed to avoid those evil ugly "trusted third parties" satoshi was talking about in his paper and that this was the whole narrative for bitcoin paranoid libertarians.

Now you are saying that trust is necessary?

[empowering]

What I meant is that "bitcoin insurance" can probably only be what circle and coinbase are offering, basically telling people that "it's all insured" but if your computer/account gets hacked you are screwed and they don't give you a penny.
Considering bitcoin is irreversible and all, good luck with actual consumer protection.

If I let my computer get hacked, and the thieves empty my fiat bank account, I'm screwed, too. No difference.

One of my neighbours had her bank card stolen after she went to an ATM. The thieves had seen her typing in her code. She got nothing from the bank.

Sounds like utter bullshit.  What country do you live in?

I have a friend here in the UK, that used a ATM machine that had a card reader inserted into it, she was not covered either.

Your neighbor, who is now your friend, got her card stolen [presumably after the thieves have seen her type in the pin]?  Sounds legit.  
You sure your friend is your friend, and not just another Bitcoin scammer?

Ha ha ha, you looney.. you do realise you are mixing two different people right? ^^

Get some sleep, take your meds, put on your glasses, engage your brain, take a bath, if you have access to one.

You really are filthy, bitcoiner.

[empowering]

Considering bitcoin is irreversible and all, good luck with actual consumer protection.

OMG! It's irreversible like the cash you pay in a brick and mortar! There is NO WAY consumer protection could exist with bitcoin.  

Oh wait!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/mainstream-consumer-protection-meets-bitcoin-100900458.html

February 13th, 2014 -- While Bitcoin has been exploding worldwide, many have argued that for Bitcoin to reach the next level of mainstream adoption there needs to be a mechanism to protect Bitcoin users from scams and fraudsters. New innovative open source start-up Bitrated is doing just that – bringing the standards of consumer protection customers have come to expect from legacy payment systems to Bitcoiners worldwide. In a world first Bitrated offers consumer protection for the safe purchasing of Bitcoin and other goods with Bitcoin, an open arbitration marketplace, buyer fraud protection mechanisms, niche experts and more.

Are you even aware of what day of the week it is?

No wonder you are a wanderer  

Calm down, cultist. You are a little nervous.

I read this thing and I see "trusted third party". I thought bitcoin was supposed to avoid those evil ugly "trusted third parties" satoshi was talking about in his paper and that this was the whole narrative for bitcoin paranoid libertarians.

Now you are saying that trust is necessary?

Can you imagine a world, with improved Bitcoin security ,where some are , if they choose, able and willing to secure their own coins and devices, and then there are others, some individuals that use companies, third parties, and some companies are insured, so as to comply with standards that enable them to interact with the conventional financial system, in a way that satisfies peoples needs and the regulations that exist?

I can.

[damiano]

Since were braking up from here, if bull volume fails were probably ending up in 160$ around double bottom

Explain how? I don't see this as a possibility at all.
If the push is not strong enough at this time more sideways action is more likely than a dump.

The way I read the market there is absolutely no incentive to sell coins below $220.

Sideways action is usually bearish.

Depends. Sideways (on falling volume, even) could either lead to a sudden break of resistance like in May, or of support, like in November.





Your guess is as good as mine, although I'm slightly leaning towards upwards, because of the sheer size of the January capitulation.

Hopefully your correct.

Im hoping for another small drop so I can pickup some more, but at the same time i'm slightly short in futures atm, but I have a very tight stoploss incase something goes against me.

[Wandererfromthenorth]

Considering bitcoin is irreversible and all, good luck with actual consumer protection.

OMG! It's irreversible like the cash you pay in a brick and mortar! There is NO WAY consumer protection could exist with bitcoin.  

Oh wait!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/mainstream-consumer-protection-meets-bitcoin-100900458.html

February 13th, 2014 -- While Bitcoin has been exploding worldwide, many have argued that for Bitcoin to reach the next level of mainstream adoption there needs to be a mechanism to protect Bitcoin users from scams and fraudsters. New innovative open source start-up Bitrated is doing just that – bringing the standards of consumer protection customers have come to expect from legacy payment systems to Bitcoiners worldwide. In a world first Bitrated offers consumer protection for the safe purchasing of Bitcoin and other goods with Bitcoin, an open arbitration marketplace, buyer fraud protection mechanisms, niche experts and more.

Are you even aware of what day of the week it is?

No wonder you are a wanderer  

Calm down, cultist. You are a little nervous.

I read this thing and I see "trusted third party". I thought bitcoin was supposed to avoid those evil ugly "trusted third parties" satoshi was talking about in his paper and that this was the whole narrative for bitcoin paranoid libertarians.

Now you are saying that trust is necessary?

Can you imagine a world, with improved Bitcoin security ,where some are , if they choose, able and willing to secure their own coins and devices, and then there are others, some individuals that use companies, third parties, and some companies are insured, so as to comply with standards that enable them to interact with the conventional financial system, in a way that satisfies peoples needs and the regulations that exist?

I can.

Looks like we are going at the very core issue of the whole bitcoin phenomenon.

First satoshi creates a technology that is supposed to avoid "trusted third parties" because apparently they are a problem.
Then we discover that trusted third parties are actually important and not a problem.
So we introduce trust in something that was supposed to avoid it?

Why not used centralised finance that works better in the first place I wonder (that sure can welcome some improvements for example with distributed ledger protocols)?

Basically we just discovered that the original satoshi endeavour of making money 100% decentralised and trust-less was kinda... bullshit because trust in necessary.

[NotLambchop]

What I meant is that "bitcoin insurance" can probably only be what circle and coinbase are offering, basically telling people that "it's all insured" but if your computer/account gets hacked you are screwed and they don't give you a penny.
Considering bitcoin is irreversible and all, good luck with actual consumer protection.

If I let my computer get hacked, and the thieves empty my fiat bank account, I'm screwed, too. No difference.

One of my neighbours had her bank card stolen after she went to an ATM. The thieves had seen her typing in her code. She got nothing from the bank.

Sounds like utter bullshit.  What country do you live in?

I have a friend here in the UK, that used a ATM machine that had a card reader inserted into it, she was not covered either.

Your neighbor, who is now your friend, got her card stolen [presumably after the thieves have seen her type in the pin]?  Sounds legit.  
You sure your friend is your friend, and not just another Bitcoin scammer?

Ha ha ha, you looney.. you do realise you are mixing two different people right? ^^

Get some sleep, take your meds, put on your glasses, engage your brain, take a bath, if you have access to one.

You really are filthy, bitcoiner.

My bad  See, Havelock, Bitcoin's premiere securities exchange, did a runner.
My attention was on on reassuring his victims that everything will work out for the best Because Bitcoin!^TM

[silverfuture]

Considering bitcoin is irreversible and all, good luck with actual consumer protection.

OMG! It's irreversible like the cash you pay in a brick and mortar! There is NO WAY consumer protection could exist with bitcoin.  

Oh wait!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/mainstream-consumer-protection-meets-bitcoin-100900458.html

February 13th, 2014 -- While Bitcoin has been exploding worldwide, many have argued that for Bitcoin to reach the next level of mainstream adoption there needs to be a mechanism to protect Bitcoin users from scams and fraudsters. New innovative open source start-up Bitrated is doing just that – bringing the standards of consumer protection customers have come to expect from legacy payment systems to Bitcoiners worldwide. In a world first Bitrated offers consumer protection for the safe purchasing of Bitcoin and other goods with Bitcoin, an open arbitration marketplace, buyer fraud protection mechanisms, niche experts and more.

Are you even aware of what day of the week it is?

No wonder you are a wanderer  

Calm down, cultist. You are a little nervous.

I read this thing and I see "trusted third party". I thought bitcoin was supposed to avoid those evil ugly "trusted third parties" satoshi was talking about in his paper and that this was the whole narrative for bitcoin paranoid libertarians.

Now you are saying that trust is necessary?

You have to trust in third parties with fiat both at the consumer protection level and at the base monetary inflation levels.

I guess you didn't read well RE: Bitcoin.... comprehension isn't your strong suit?

Bitrated’s arbitrators are not required for releasing the Bitcoin payment. Due to the use of multi-signature Bitcoin transactions, if the transaction ends well, both parties can easily release the funds without any intervention from the arbitrator. Arbitrators also never have full control over the funds. They can only move the funds with the permission of either the buyer or the seller, and cannot control them in any way without their approval.

Instead of using a traditional escrow payment holding and release system, Bitrated utilizes Bitcoin’s inbuilt multi-signature transactions feature. This means that the strict escrow regulations, licensing requirements and associated high costs are not applied: making it possible for anyone to offer arbitration services, and not just large companies as was the case until now with fiat money. Individuals with specific knowledge about a specific market, such as software development, can offer arbitration services for that specific market; having the ability to use their knowledge to resolve disputes. This is not possible today with legacy payment platforms.

Multisig, open source, software means you don't have to trust third parties for consumer protection and have a choice of  arbiters to dispute for vastly less cost than we currently spend on consumer protection.... AND you have a money that is not fundamentally controlled by a centralized third party. Inflation is known and perfectly predictable, and security is tighter than a drum.

Edit: Nice thing about bitcoin is that it offers merchant protection that the legacy systems just can't seem to provide. What is wrong with your google?

[KryptoFoo]

finex now providing details on used and unused swaps:

https://twitter.com/flibbr/status/570656785377443841

what a surprise, >99% of all active swaps are already used in margin positions.

[empowering]

Considering bitcoin is irreversible and all, good luck with actual consumer protection.

OMG! It's irreversible like the cash you pay in a brick and mortar! There is NO WAY consumer protection could exist with bitcoin.  

Oh wait!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/mainstream-consumer-protection-meets-bitcoin-100900458.html

February 13th, 2014 -- While Bitcoin has been exploding worldwide, many have argued that for Bitcoin to reach the next level of mainstream adoption there needs to be a mechanism to protect Bitcoin users from scams and fraudsters. New innovative open source start-up Bitrated is doing just that – bringing the standards of consumer protection customers have come to expect from legacy payment systems to Bitcoiners worldwide. In a world first Bitrated offers consumer protection for the safe purchasing of Bitcoin and other goods with Bitcoin, an open arbitration marketplace, buyer fraud protection mechanisms, niche experts and more.

Are you even aware of what day of the week it is?

No wonder you are a wanderer  

Calm down, cultist. You are a little nervous.

I read this thing and I see "trusted third party". I thought bitcoin was supposed to avoid those evil ugly "trusted third parties" satoshi was talking about in his paper and that this was the whole narrative for bitcoin paranoid libertarians.

Now you are saying that trust is necessary?

Can you imagine a world, with improved Bitcoin security ,where some are , if they choose, able and willing to secure their own coins and devices, and then there are others, some individuals that use companies, third parties, and some companies are insured, so as to comply with standards that enable them to interact with the conventional financial system, in a way that satisfies peoples needs and the regulations that exist?

I can.

Looks like we are going at the very core issue of the whole bitcoin phenomenon.

First satoshi creates a technology that is supposed to avoid "trusted third parties" because apparently they are a problem.
Then we discover that trusted third parties are actually important and not a problem.
So we introduce trust in something that was supposed to avoid it?

Why not used centralised finance that works better in the first place I wonder (that sure can welcome some improvements for example with distributed ledger protocols)?

Basically we just discovered that the original satoshi endeavour of making money 100% decentralised and trust-less was kinda... bullshit because trust in necessary.

So you are saying you cannot imagine a world where some choose to use a third party, if that is their choice, and some choose not to, and instead choose to disintermediate?

The point is you now have the choice.

I have not bought a CD, or used blockbuster, or bought a DVD for nearly half a decade, I still can choose to do so, but now I download or stream all of my content. However if I wanted to I could pop down to the shop and pick it up and buy cash, or order online and get a hardcopy sent in the post and pay by credit card or by Bitcoin , but I choose not to, I choose to interact with the web (with the risks associated) and download or stream or p2p,  but the point is I have the choice. Whereas I remember very clearly getting all new release films from blockbuster or going to the cinema, because well I had no choice.

The advent of digital downloads and streaming and p2p, did disintermediate to a certain extent the businesses that used to be the largest providers of DVD/CD rentals, sales etc.

It provides the choice.

Plenty of people I know still buy DVDs and CD's and plenty of people p2p or stream, and industry is playing catchup all of the time with this.

Point is people have the choice, to use technology that disintermediates the middleman.

Also, solutions to problems are being found all the time, Bitcoin security being a problem that is getting a lot of focus, I expect to see better solutions relatively soon. Things change.

(ps "Middle men" is quite a good film anyone seen it?? it is actually quite relevant now that I think of it  i.e internet, payments, evolving tech, and dodgy dodgy fuckers ... but now years later turned into a "grown up" fully fledged global industry, which still has some dodgy fuckers no doubt)

[Erdogan]

What I meant is that "bitcoin insurance" can probably only be what circle and coinbase are offering, basically telling people that "it's all insured" but if your computer/account gets hacked you are screwed and they don't give you a penny.
Considering bitcoin is irreversible and all, good luck with actual consumer protection.

If I let my computer get hacked, and the thieves empty my fiat bank account, I'm screwed, too. No difference.

One of my neighbours had her bank card stolen after she went to an ATM. The thieves had seen her typing in her code. She got nothing from the bank.

Sounds like utter bullshit.  What country do you live in?

Entirely possible even in the US.

To expand on that: In the early years of ATM cards, the 4 digit pin-code was encrypted on the card, and it was easy to steal a card, read it, brute force the pin, and use it - the ATM's were not always online and you could always find one that was offline. The banks just assumed that nobody had access to card readers, and that the encryption formula was secret. Both turned out to be untrue after some years, but countless courts trusted the banks, and the conclusion was always that if the correct pin was entered, it had either to be the owner of the card who did it, or he had not secured his pin sufficiently (which he had to, according the contract). Money lost.