Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[billyjoeallen]

I for one do not want to live in a zoo. I prefer the jungle.

LOL.

You wouldn't last 5 minutes in the jungle, fireman.

That should be my decision to make.

[sporket]

...
ok, miners counterfeiters  produce heat that keeps them warm. They buy equipment which gives people jobs. They make money and stay off of welfare, which reduces the tax burden.  If they mine counterfeit full time then they reduce unemployment.

These are actually bogus answers, but no more bogus than yours. The real answer is that they are ENTREPRENEURS...

I think you got something there.
Good morning, gentlemen.

[JorgeStolfi]

Here is an even nicer number:

000000000000000000000000000000000dffb334bffcaaff3333fffffffffffffffffff

You say that a couple thousand dollars of electricity were used to find your number?  How stupid.  I found mine by just typing hex digits at random.  Yet it is a hash of some string too, like yours.  So, explain again, why is your number "wealth", as much wealth as a laptop or a good bike?  Why isn't mine "wealth", too?

The challenge isn't to create a hash with leading numbers. That's easy as you proven. The challenge is, to find some random data that combined with given data (the actual transactions) and passed into a defined hashing algorythm will return this kind of hexdecimal number with the required amount of leading zeros.

That's not something, that's easy to do.

I really don't know whether he or she is truly interested in this or merely trying to combat Bitcoin itself and not the proof if work algorithm. People need to understand that this is the solution to the Byzantine generals problem. Nothing more but also nothing less!

At least we have agreed that Marcus's number is not valuable by itself; the supposed "value" is in the blockchain.  That number is just a seal on the door of a safe, that guarantees that the land deeds that are stored inside the safe have not been adulterated since they were placed there.

That seal contributes in part to the value of the land plots recorded in those deeds, but in a very indirect way.  The "value" of bitcoins is not defined by the protocol, it is defined by beliefs and feelings of the people who buy or sell them.  That value is not proportional to the amount of energy spent in the computing that hash, just as the seal's land's value is not proportional to the cost of the wax and stamp used to make it the seal.

The hashes of the earliest blocks had only a few leading zeros, yet the bitcoins mined in those blocks are assumed to be as valuable as those mined today: that "fact" is not in the protocol either, it is just a belief that bitcoiners have chosen to share.

Every week, several blocks get orphaned: their hashes cost as much as the hashes of the surviving blocks, but the coins mined in them are worthless... unless some day a bunch of people decides that a certain orphan block was legitimate, and starts building a new blockchain branch from that block, and agrees to believe that the coins in that branch have value to them.

Proof of work is not "the" solution to the Byzantine General's Problem, it is only "a" solution, even if it is the only one known.  As used in bitcoin, it is a tremendously expensive solution; but its worst defect is that it leads to centralization of mining, which in the end defeats its goal. For that reason, some (myself included) conclude that the PoW "solution" is not really a solution.

(There is also the question of whether the bitcoin PoW puzzle is really hard, or whether there is a clever algorithm that solves it in a millisecond.  No, it is not "guaranteed by math" at all. But let's not get into that now.)

Edit: seal and land analogy.

[billyjoeallen]

1) I'm sorry, I forgot who I was talking to.
2) There are very good reasons why that applies to personal debt and very good reasons why they don't apply to public debt. A country is not a person. It doesn't die. If and when it is dissolved, vanquished, conquered, then it is reasonable to ask where the debt goes.


But yes, there is a lot of risk involved with adding to an already huge debt. But sometimes the alternatives are worse. There was no reason to keep adding to the deficit after the dot-com crash of 2001 had been dealt with. So from 2002/2003-2008 both congress and the president should have focused on turning the deficit into a surplus. But instead they decided to gamble the nations future on an oxymoron called big-government conservatism. Kicking the dollar and replacing it with Bitcoin is not going to make republicans (both voters and politicians) less stupid. That requires education, publicly funded education. Even those on the right should recognize this.

1) no problem.
2) a government is not a country.

I'm not conservative (except culturally). I don't want to end the dollar. I want to end the forced use of the dollar by ending legal tender laws. Bitcoin may not ever catch on, but we should be free to use whatever form of money a buyer and seller agrees on.

Education is important, but politicians, bureaucrats and teachers don't have the incentives to do it well, which is why the don't do it well. Public choice economics predicts this and test scores confirm it. Online resources like The Khan Academy is free and take no tax money. That's not the whole solution, but part of it.  https://www.khanacademy.org/

[tarmi]

I guess I'll give you points for being consistent: you're probably not simply 'anti Bitcoin', but against the larger development of excessive 'financialization' (through financial derivatives), right?

You bet.

Money is not real wealth, it is just a token that one can exchange for real wealth things and stuff.

Real wealth is something that most of the "intellectual powerhouses" here will never understand or have; they are too busy obsessing over accumulating stuff and things, measuring themselves against illusions and performing in a loaded game.

+1

real wealth is knowledge.

all other things are...well...things.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[silverfuture]

Best comments from Matonis' tweet feed RE: Greece and Bitcoin:

[silverfuture]

1) I'm sorry, I forgot who I was talking to.
2) There are very good reasons why that applies to personal debt and very good reasons why they don't apply to public debt. A country is not a person. It doesn't die. If and when it is dissolved, vanquished, conquered, then it is reasonable to ask where the debt goes.


But yes, there is a lot of risk involved with adding to an already huge debt. But sometimes the alternatives are worse. There was no reason to keep adding to the deficit after the dot-com crash of 2001 had been dealt with. So from 2002/2003-2008 both congress and the president should have focused on turning the deficit into a surplus. But instead they decided to gamble the nations future on an oxymoron called big-government conservatism. Kicking the dollar and replacing it with Bitcoin is not going to make republicans (both voters and politicians) less stupid. That requires education, publicly funded education. Even those on the right should recognize this.

1) no problem.
2) a government is not a country.

I'm not conservative (except culturally). I don't want to end the dollar. I want to end the forced use of the dollar by ending legal tender laws. Bitcoin may not ever catch on, but we should be free to use whatever form of money a buyer and seller agrees on.

Education is important, but politicians, bureaucrats and teachers don't have the incentives to do it well, which is why the don't do it well. Public choice economics predicts this and test scores confirm it. Online resources like The Khan Academy is free and take no tax money. That's not the whole solution, but part of it.  https://www.khanacademy.org/

Well said BJA.  Education certainly does not need to be publicly funded and controlled by bureaucrats to be effective or accessible at all. Why does this myth exist in spite of the myriad evidence against it?

[KryptoFoo]

The moment is nigh. Meltup. Chinese panic pump.

[NotHatinJustTrollin]

Best comments from Matonis' tweet feed RE: Greece and Bitcoin:

I see three rambling nutjobs:

[Globb0]

Best comments from Matonis' tweet feed RE: Greece and Bitcoin:

I suppose if a transparent mechanism replaced a it might be there it might not banking system there could be beneficial side effects.

[empowering]

http://youtu.be/LYnnm3L12fA



    "Such a waste of time, he chose money over power. In this town, a mistake nearly everyone makes.

    Money is the McMansion in Sarasota that starts falling apart after ten years.

    Power is the old stone building that stands for centuries.

    I can not respect someone that doesn’t see the difference."



 

[silverfuture]

Best comments from Matonis' tweet feed RE: Greece and Bitcoin:

I suppose if a transparent mechanism replaced a it might be there it might not banking system there could be beneficial side effects.

^ come again?

[phoenix1]

Best comments from Matonis' tweet feed RE: Greece and Bitcoin:

I suppose if a transparent mechanism replaced a it might be there it might not banking system there could be beneficial side effects.

^ come again?

Yeh, I really have no idea what that means either  

[billyjoeallen]

I guess I'll give you points for being consistent: you're probably not simply 'anti Bitcoin', but against the larger development of excessive 'financialization' (through financial derivatives), right?

You bet.

Money is not real wealth, it is just a token that one can exchange for real wealth things and stuff.

Real wealth is something that most of the "intellectual powerhouses" here will never understand or have; they are too busy obsessing over accumulating stuff and things, measuring themselves against illusions and performing in a loaded game.

+1

real wealth is knowledge.

all other things are...well...things.

That's so fucking profound. Thanks for that original and enlightening thought.
I'm curious what YOU measure yourself against and how you think you're doing. Don't say you don't do it.  All that would mean is you have no interest in self improvement.

Tell me, oh wisetits, how should I measure myself?

[empowering]

I guess I'll give you points for being consistent: you're probably not simply 'anti Bitcoin', but against the larger development of excessive 'financialization' (through financial derivatives), right?

You bet.

Money is not real wealth, it is just a token that one can exchange for real wealth things and stuff.

Real wealth is something that most of the "intellectual powerhouses" here will never understand or have; they are too busy obsessing over accumulating stuff and things, measuring themselves against illusions and performing in a loaded game.

+1

real wealth is knowledge.

all other things are...well...things.

That's so fucking profound. Thanks for that original and enlightening thought.
I'm curious what YOU measure yourself against and how you think you're doing. Don't say you don't do it.  All that would mean is you have no interest in self improvement.

Tell me, oh wisetits, how should I measure myself?

From the top of the base to the tip? I think anything else is cheating.

[NotLambchop]

Knock fuckin' knock, Bitcoiner.
          The jig's up.

[Globb0]

lol  


Such as less tax evasion/avoidance etc.

Nothing conjured up before your eyes and passed off as real.

[NoIgnore4u]

No bitcoin enthusiast actually spends a decent amount of his coins, they just hodl them in hope that it becomes the world reserve currency.


Who actually spends bitcoin and uses it as a currency: terrorists, child pedos, drug dealers.



Bullish.

[Globb0]

I finally gave in and started an ignore list.

Getting sillier.