Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[KryptoFoo]

well, this won't do. markets are sleepwalking higher on no volume. Lightened my long position considerably for now. Of course, we'll probably break higher now that I sold some

[NotLambchop]

...
I bought some Beanies in any case but she doesn't know  
...

Yeah, it's good to have diverse holdings like that, just to hedge against Bitcoin disrupting math & NOT going to the moon for some reason.
By balancing your portfolio you double your money twice as fast cheaper==>smart, like me.

It's dinner time son.  Please come out of the basement.

Wish I could, mom, but a nice Bitcoiner promised me candy and ice cream so he could touch me inappropriately.  But he said all Bitcoiners were doctors, so it's not wrong.
I'll be home as soon as he unties me.

[MomLambchop]

...
I bought some Beanies in any case but she doesn't know  
...

Yeah, it's good to have diverse holdings like that, just to hedge against Bitcoin disrupting math & NOT going to the moon for some reason.
By balancing your portfolio you double your money twice as fast cheaper==>smart, like me.

It's dinner time son.  Please come out of the basement.

Wish I could, mom, but a nice Bitcoiner promised me candy and ice cream so he could touch me inappropriately.  But he said all Bitcoiners were doctors, so it's not wrong.
I'll be home as soon as he unties me.

Ok sweetie

[Hfertig]

Speaking of "marshall auction next week"  is this the last of the coins the feds have to auction at this point?  I hope so.  I think that it has caused some parties to keep prices deflated for hopes of purchasing in at a lower price, or just the fears that price will plummet because of such a huge amount being sold off.

no there is another batch

It would be nice if we could just get the auctions out of the way really.  I guess with Bitcoin it will always be something going on though.  What would it feel like without scandals, bankruptcies, coin seizures?

why do people ignore the 200.000 MtGox coins which will be either hitting the market or beeing distributed to creditors this year ?

I thought that they were already "distributed" in that they are "missing?"  Correct me if I am wrong here.

They were miraculously found by M Karpeles in the aftermath and that's what is left to give back. However I assume a lot of expenses are coming out of that amount so their original owners may not get as much as they expect.

You are very correct, Sir. Only a proportion of that will be distributed. Some will be sold to cover for expenses. the question is if all will be sold and fiat will be distributed or only the expenses part will be sold and the remaining coins to be distributed. Either way, lots of coins....

[JorgeStolfi]

Lets see how this translates 2,600 years ago...

Real wealth is houses, land, cars, food, services, etc.  Wealth gets created and destroyed, sometimes both in quick succession, as when a cook prepares a meal that gets eaten right away.  

Gold does not create any wealth. Its contribution to productivity, by (allegedly) being a more efficient payment instrument is tiny.  In fact, the contribution of gold to world's production of wealth, so far, has been humongously negative: 100 times (at least) more wealth has been destroyed by the gold system than has been created thanks to it.

Does not translate.  The replacement of barter by money transactions hugely improved the flow of goods and services, by breaking down complicated multi-party trasactions into independent two-party steps, that could be widely separated in time and space.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, has not yet brought any significant contributions to commerce.  The benefits of bitcoin are, at best, the saving of a few percent in the price of international payments. That is counted as a benefit, because otherwise the payment of those extra fees would have meant waste of work by bank staffers, for services that (allegedly) were not really necessary.  All those saved fees together may barely add up to 10 million dollars.  

The losses caused by bitcoin include, first, all the wealth consumed by the "bitcoin phenomenon": the bitcoin mining equipment and electrical energy used by miners, all the time spent by bitcoiners looking at charts, trading bitcoins, and watching Antonopulos videos, all the time and equipment and electricity consumed by bitcoin companies, all the time spent by non-bitcoiners listening to bitcoiners and trying to understand the thing.  We should also add all the losses and hardships suffered by victims of bitcoin thefts, scams, and collapse of bitcoin companies.  Even if we discount from the latter the losses of wealthy people (which, a communist might argue, were just cases of thief stealing from thief), we can easily get to a billion dollars of damages.  

Hence the claim that, so far, bitcoin has brought 100x more losses than benefits to mankind.

Gold's effect has been mainly to move property from some people to other people, mostly independently of their actual contribution to society.   The gains from the early adopters, in particular, came from the (substantially bigger) losses of  those who have bough coins gold and are still holding them.  If the gold price ever reached a million, as the holders dream, then trlliions of wealth would be transferred -- little by little, imperceptibly -- from those who buy gold to those early adopters who hold most of the coins.  If a country like Greece adopted gold, that wealth would be taken from its citizens.  

These statements applied to bitcoin because of its huge increase in market price in a short time, which led to large-scale transfers of wealth (hard to estimate, but may be more than a million dollars per day) to the early adopters who sold for a big profit, and from the later investors who are holding the bag and may lose their money.  

Those statements may not apply so much to gold, since, during most of those 2600 years you mention, gold's price has not risen that fast and that much; so the profit that individuals may have made from long-term investment in gold was probably not that significant.  However, in recent times we have seen a gold bubble, and that bubble must have resulted in huge wealth transfers, unrelated to wealth creation -- just as bad as bitcoin.  (I am not a "gold bug", if that is what you thought.)

That is the same trick that governments and banks use when they create more money, indeed. But when the government does it, it is just another kind of tax: the government is supposed to use the wealth that it buys with that new money for the benefit of its citizens.  When banks do it, of course, there is no such return: there is net and permanent transfer of wealth from the general people to bank owners.

And that is the case too when private entities create new money, whether it is gift certificates or Linden Dollars -- or scarce metals.  *That* is why scarce metals are a scam, even if they were to succeed.

These statemetns of course make no sense when applied to gold. Banks and governments do not create more gold, and private entities do not create new scarce metals.  It obviously applies to fiat money, such as dollars and cryptocurrencies.

[NotLambchops-GayLover]

...
I bought some Beanies in any case but she doesn't know  
...

Yeah, it's good to have diverse holdings like that, just to hedge against Bitcoin disrupting math & NOT going to the moon for some reason.
By balancing your portfolio you double your money twice as fast cheaper==>smart, like me.

It's dinner time son.  Please come out of the basement.

Is your son with this wacky bitcoiners again? He spends far to much time with them lately and totally neglects my best piece in recent times. You know it is really straining our love life.

[D05GTO]

My ignore list after twelve days of membership:

fonzie
NotLambchop
YourMother
Dump3er
NotHatinJustTrollin
ChildPr0nzUsers
NoIgnore4u
JihadCoinz
MomLambchop

It even includes a moderator! (fonzie)

You're definitely getting the hang of it then

[D05GTO]

While I don't agree with all of JorgeStolfi's sentiments. They are at least thought out and not complete fodder.   It's not a good idea to stick your head in the sand but blocking out the noise really helps to get a picture.    Most schools now don't teach critical thinking and coming to your own solutions.   They'll give you the solution and hope you can regurgitate it later on.

I've come to the realization that bitcoin does have enough merits to devote a small amount of my money and time into it.   As to all the trolls, we'll they devote all their time to it so it must be really reeeeaaaaally important to them.

[empowering]

Does not translate.  The replacement of barter by money transactions hugely improved the flow of goods and services, by breaking down complicated multi-party trasactions into independent two-party steps, that could be widely separated in time and space.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, has not yet brought any significant contributions to commerce.  The benefits of bitcoin are, at best, the saving of a few percent in the price of international payments. That is counted as a benefit, because otherwise the payment of those extra fees would have meant waste of work by bank staffers, for services that (allegedly) were not really necessary.  All those saved fees together may barely add up to 10 million dollars.  

The losses caused by bitcoin include, first, all the wealth consumed by the "bitcoin phenomenon": the bitcoin mining equipment and electrical energy used by miners, all the time spent by bitcoiners looking at charts, trading bitcoins, and watching Antonopulos videos, all the time and equipment and electricity consumed by bitcoin companies, all the time spent by non-bitcoiners listening to bitcoiners and trying to understand the thing.  We should also add all the losses and hardships suffered by victims of bitcoin thefts, scams, and collapse of bitcoin companies.  Even if we discount from the latter the losses of wealthy people (which, a communist might argue, were just cases of thief stealing from thief), we can easily get to a billion dollars of damages.  

 
1) the bitcoin mining equipment = do the mining companies and their suppliers and their employees  burn the money they earn?

2) and electrical energy used by miners = do the energy companies burn the money they earn?

3) all the time spent by bitcoiners looking at charts, trading bitcoins = do websites and exchanges and traders burn the money they earn?

4)and watching Antonopulos videos = does you tube burn the money they earn from ad revenues (a tiny bit of which come from admittedly a very few btc videos in the grand scheme) or the people that make the videos? or the video cameras?

[ejinte]

Just bought some bitcoins 


Thanks for filling my buy order, much appreciated.

[alesx.onfire]

BTC Saves Greece! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s7UVY5yv7Y

[FUR11]

Price seems to be going down a bit now. But I don't think this is going to end in another flash crash. And even if we should go down as much as last night, it will only show the resilience Bitcoin has managed to gain over the past weeks!

[NotLambchop]

...
I bought some Beanies in any case but she doesn't know  
...

Yeah, it's good to have diverse holdings like that, just to hedge against Bitcoin disrupting math & NOT going to the moon for some reason.
By balancing your portfolio you double your money twice as fast cheaper==>smart, like me.

It's dinner time son.  Please come out of the basement.

Is your son with this wacky bitcoiners again? He spends far to much time with them lately and totally neglects my best piece in recent times. You know it is really straining our love life.

He got these movies of boys like us wrestling with other Bitcoin doctors, and he teaches me all about books by Ayn Rand, who's a funny man who dresses like a lady, and how money is printed from thin air, and... and other smart mature stuff like that.
He said if you're plump and underage smart like me, you can come over too.
<3

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[NotHatinJustTrollin]

Enough is enough! I have had it with these motherfucking bulltards on this motherfucking thread!

Well said ChartBuddy!

[JorgeStolfi]

1) the bitcoin mining equipment = do the mining companies and their suppliers and their employees  burn the money they earn?

2) and electrical energy used by miners = do the energy companies burn the money they earn?

3) all the time spent by bitcoiners looking at charts, trading bitcoins = do websites and exchanges and traders burn the money they earn?

4)and watching Antonopulos videos = does you tube burn the money they earn from ad revenues (a tiny bit of which come from admittedly a very few btc videos in the grand scheme) or the people that make the videos? or the video cameras?

I insist: money is not wealth, just tokens that people are willing to accept in exchange of wealth.   All the things above destroy wealth, and move money from some people to other people.

Once again: some forms of money, like dollars, are so stable and widely accepted that people usually count them as wealth, when evaluating the wealth owned by a person or company.  That is a valid assumption for those purposes.  

But when one is discussing the wealth of the world (as in the above) or of a country, it is wrong to count the money owned by its inhabitants.  (Except, in the case of a country, the money that the country could use to acquire wealth that is outside the country, without giving other wealth in return.)

[Silverspoon]

Why is BTC price so limp lately?  Not saying Bitcoin's dying, but it's like an abandoned casino lately.  Is this what you call singularity, or is this the tipping point?
Whatever it is, make it stop, I can't gamble like this.

[empowering]

1) the bitcoin mining equipment = do the mining companies and their suppliers and their employees  burn the money they earn?

2) and electrical energy used by miners = do the energy companies burn the money they earn?

3) all the time spent by bitcoiners looking at charts, trading bitcoins = do websites and exchanges and traders burn the money they earn?

4)and watching Antonopulos videos = does you tube burn the money they earn from ad revenues (a tiny bit of which come from admittedly a very few btc videos in the grand scheme) or the people that make the videos? or the video cameras?

I insist: money is not wealth, just tokens that people are willing to accept in exchange of wealth.   All the things above destroy wealth, and move money from some people to other people.

Once again: some forms of money, like dollars, are so stable and widely accepted that people usually count them as wealth, when evaluating the wealth owned by a person or company.  That is a valid assumption for those purposes.  

But when one is discussing the wealth of the world (as in the above) or of a country, it is wrong to count the money owned by its inhabitants.  (Except, in the case of a country, the money that the country could use to acquire wealth that is outside the country, without giving other wealth in return.)

Money is not wealth, it is a symbol we use to represent wealth.

If what you are stating is that BTC uses resources that could be used for something else.. then.... yeah... but have you had a good look around the world recently?

(personal note: In the future I may start to keep some of my wealth in cow form, I like cheese, and milk.......and steak.... oh and food for the veggie garden......plus I think I would rather enjoy owning a cow or three, they are pleasant)

(bullish?)

[Andre#]

Lets see how this translates 2,600 years ago...

Real wealth is houses, land, cars, food, services, etc.  Wealth gets created and destroyed, sometimes both in quick succession, as when a cook prepares a meal that gets eaten right away.  

Gold does not create any wealth. Its contribution to productivity, by (allegedly) being a more efficient payment instrument is tiny.  In fact, the contribution of gold to world's production of wealth, so far, has been humongously negative: 100 times (at least) more wealth has been destroyed by the gold system than has been created thanks to it.

Does not translate.  The replacement of barter by money transactions hugely improved the flow of goods and services, by breaking down complicated multi-party trasactions into independent two-party steps, that could be widely separated in time and space.

There was something between barter and gold. Currencies like salt, rare shells, rai stones, to name a few. Gold coins replaced those. While the other currencies were local, gold worked globally (well, almost, it didn't get to the Americas). See the parallel between contemporary local fiat currencies and the global bitcoins?
  

The losses caused by bitcoin include, first, all the wealth consumed by the "bitcoin phenomenon": the bitcoin mining equipment and electrical energy used by miners, all the time spent by bitcoiners looking at charts, trading bitcoins, and watching Antonopulos videos, all the time and equipment and electricity consumed by bitcoin companies, all the time spent by non-bitcoiners listening to bitcoiners and trying to understand the thing.  We should also add all the losses and hardships suffered by victims of bitcoin thefts, scams, and collapse of bitcoin companies.  Even if we discount from the latter the losses of wealthy people (which, a communist might argue, were just cases of thief stealing from thief), we can easily get to a billion dollars of damages.  

Hence the claim that, so far, bitcoin has brought 100x more losses than benefits to mankind.

How much losses are caused by gold mining? By moving cash around? By people devoting their lives to making money off the financial markets? Etc...

That is the same trick that governments and banks use when they create more money, indeed. But when the government does it, it is just another kind of tax: the government is supposed to use the wealth that it buys with that new money for the benefit of its citizens.  When banks do it, of course, there is no such return: there is net and permanent transfer of wealth from the general people to bank owners.

And that is the case too when private entities create new money, whether it is gift certificates or Linden Dollars -- or scarce metals.  *That* is why scarce metals are a scam, even if they were to succeed.

These statemetns of course make no sense when applied to gold. Banks and governments do not create more gold, and private entities do not create new scarce metals.  It obviously applies to fiat money, such as dollars and cryptocurrencies.

Gold mining companies mine gold. As such they bring more gold in circulation that wasn't in circulation before -- just like with bitcoin.

There are private entities that try to make other scarce metals (apart from gold and silver) sexy enough to act as a store of value.

[Hfertig]

Price seems to be going down a bit now. But I don't think this is going to end in another flash crash. And even if we should go down as much as last night, it will only show the resilience Bitcoin has managed to gain over the past weeks!

to me it looks like a slow grind down.