Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[adamstgBit]

i dnot do this every night
i was left to my own devices, gf was out wedding streess shpoing for her friend.

[r0ach]

because i need the coin to mine the coin the its a permissioned leger?

I explained earlier.  Forget trying to analyze what PoS is (a recursive, closed loop system).  Instead figure out why Bitcoin actually is a decentralized currency.  The answer is:

The purpose of mining is to create a permanent two way peg, decentralized exchange, which thus results in a permissionless system.

Once you remove the mechanism of a permanent 2 way peg with our world and the computer world, it turns into a closed entropy system, which is the equivalent of 1's and 0's being trapped on a floppy disk and not decentralized anymore.

It's the difference between a living and evolving organism vs a video game AI script.

[Chef Ramsay]

Smirnoff or 5 o'clock?

Smirnoff

how many? A friend said, i never stop at one nor go past eleven. Heard 5 o'clock makes the next day start pretty unfavorably.

[adamstgBit]

because i need the coin to mine the coin the its a permissioned leger?

I explained earlier.  Forget trying to analyze what PoS is (a recursive, closed loop system).  Instead figure out why Bitcoin actually is a decentralized currency.  The answer is:

The purpose of mining is to create a permanent two way peg, decentralized exchange, which thus results in a permissionless system.

Once you remove the mechanism of a permanent 2 way peg with our world and the computer world, it turns into a closed entropy system, which is the equivalent of 1's and 0's being trapped on a floppy disk and not decentralized anymore.

being fully honest, i have simply dont understand what your saying, maybe my view is too high level. to me you either prove you computing power  (POW) or you prove your economic power ( POS)

i think we'd need a face to face discussion with a blackboard to understand your point. ( and i need to be equipped with a joint )

that being said i trust your one to somthing fundamental which really does make POS systems invalid in some way, the fact that i dont "get it" dosnt make much diff to me, you've convinced me... without making me understand , if that makes any sense

[r0ach]

being fully honest, i have simply dont understand what your saying, maybe my view is too high level. to me you either prove you computing power  (POW) or you prove your economic power ( POS)

i think we'd need a face to face discussion with a blackboard to understand your point.

Do you understand that the act of mining itself is technically a decentralized exchange?  Most people don't know Bitcoin has a decentralized exchange, but that's exactly what it is.  It's a permanent decentralized exchange because the block reward is subsidized by transaction fees so you can always go straight to the tree itself to pluck off coins.  If you remove this peg, it becomes a closed entropy system and is no longer decentralized, but only a distributed, permissioned ledger.

If you want to use the system, you require native tokens, and in a closed entropy system, you're at the mercy of whoever owns them to extort you.  In Bitcoin, it's an open-entropy, permissionless ledger, so this is not the case.  This means the only way you could actually define closed entropy systems is basically companies or businesses.  The nash equilibrium is then lost for much of their use case.

[adamstgBit]

Smirnoff or 5 o'clock?

Smirnoff

how many? A friend said, i never stop at one nor go past eleven. Heard 5 o'clock makes the next day start pretty unfavorably.

i lost count, its time for me to stop.
my GF came home and took the bottle away ( on my  last drink )
god( the universe of organized randomness ) bless her soul.

[adamstgBit]

being fully honest, i have simply dont understand what your saying, maybe my view is too high level. to me you either prove you computing power  (POW) or you prove your economic power ( POS)

i think we'd need a face to face discussion with a blackboard to understand your point.

Do you understand that the act of mining itself is technically a decentralized exchange?  Most people don't know Bitcoin has a decentralized exchange, but that's exactly what it is.  It's a permanent decentralized exchange because the block reward is subsidized by transaction fees so you can always go straight to the tree itself to pluck off coins.  If you remove this peg, it becomes a closed entropy system and is no longer decentralized, but only a distributed, permissioned ledger.

i think i get it....
i just feel the line you draw between decentralized and distributed is very thin, and almost not worth considering, in the end both systems  solve the double spend problem...

POC - Proof of Capacity seemed interesting, but in the end i trust the try tested and true method of POW.

[r0ach]

i think i get it....
i just feel the line you draw between decentralized and distributed is very thin, and almost not worth considering, in the end both systems  solve the double spend problem...

It gets more technical because the open entropy aspect is the only reason much of the consensus system works.  For instance, in PoS, a large holder can cause permanent preemption and just shut the chain down forever.  There is no such thing as "forever" in an open entropy system for him to do that.

There is also no real fault or state recovery in PoS because you have to reference the parts that have already failed in order to continue.  Like I said, the concept of things begin stuck in a state of "forever" is usually a negative in terms of security.  Also, like I said earlier, you need native tokens to utilize the system, and since the system has a decentralized exchange (mining), then anyone can acquire them at fair market price.  For a system of closed entropy, the coins are shut off and it's basically a system of permanent extortion by whoever owns them, assuming the network effect is able to force others into the system.

[adamstgBit]

i think i get it....
i just feel the line you draw between decentralized and distributed is very thin, and almost not worth considering, in the end both systems  solve the double spend problem...

It gets more technical because the open entropy aspect is the only reason much of the consensus system works.  For instance, in PoS, a large holder can cause permanent preemption and just shut the chain down forever.  There is no such thing as "forever" in an open entropy system for him to do that.

There is also no real fault or state recovery in PoS because you have to reference the parts that have already failed in order to continue.  Like I said, the concept of things begin stuck in a state of "forever" is usually a negative in terms of security.  Also, like I said earlier, you need native tokens to utilize the system, and since the system has a decentralized exchange (mining), then anyone can acquire them at fair market price.  For a system of closed entropy, the coins are shut off and it's basically a system of permanent extortion by whoever owns them, assuming the network effect is able to force others into the system.

i hear you, understanding is more than hearing tho....
i feel as tho given a blackboard and 20 mins face to face,
you can make me really understand just how flawed POS really is.
if anything for the highlighted reason above the POS system doesn't make for "good money"


anyway....

[adamstgBit]

[dumbfbrankings]

* dumbfbrankings kicks aside a heavily taxed canadian smirnoff bottle.

The halvening is coming gentlement. 420 blaze it. 

[Fatman3001]

President Putin’s counselor and advisor on the internet, German Klimenko, or a Canadian uᴉoɔʇᴉq monomaniac calling himself adamstgBit...
Who to believe?

I'll take the Canadian over the Russian any day.

The smartest Russian, Vitalik Buterin grew up and was educated in Canada. Coincidence?

Mind you, he was smart enough to take his (and other people's) money to Switzerland.

Klimenko? He's just toadying up to KGB boy.

o rly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman

Beyond that, yes Klimenko is a siloviki toad. Whenever they speak down stuff it means it's powerful stuff.

[stereotype]

Is that light, i see?..... https://petertodd.org/2016/btcc-funding

[billyjoeallen]

Crazy prediction:

Craig Wright IS Satoshi Nakamoto and is going to destroy the Millions of coins he holds to proof it.

Would you mind specifying how will he DESTROY coins?

Easy. You just send them to an address where the private keys are known to be lost.

[JimboToronto]

The smartest Russian, Vitalik Buterin grew up and was educated in Canada. Coincidence?

o rly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman

Fair enough. Perelman is no slouch.

For a country with the population of Russia though, they don't do so well.

Meanwhile, half of the original Silicon Valley was educated at The University of Western Ontario or the University of Waterloo. The rest came mostly from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and the University of Michigan at Dearborn. That's not counting Stanford of course. The were the destination.

Many of our best minds were scooped up by the Americans (and their money) in the 1960s. At the time we called it the brain drain.

Canada doesn't have a monopoly on smart people but on a basis of population we're still well ahead of the Russians

[billyjoeallen]

Is that light, i see?..... https://petertodd.org/2016/btcc-funding

there’s a much more fundamental problem: we’re not doing a good job of communicating why we’re concerned about decentralization, and why we think larger blocks are a risk.

I get so fucking tired of this. it's not that we don't understand your concerns. It's that we don't AGREE with your concerns.  There is a communication problem but it's not that you don't explain yourself well enough. The problem is you don't fucking listen.

You can't gripe that you're under the gun with the SegWit roll-out after stalling for YEARS claiming that we had plenty of time to fix this problem and there's no hurry. You only care now because miners are threatening to revolt and everybody knows it.   

You wasted your trust capital and now it's gone. You have nobody to blame but yourself.

[billyjoeallen]

Canada doesn't have a monopoly on smart people but on a basis of population we're still well ahead of the Russians

Only because you import Chinese and export Celene Dion and Nickleback.

[JimboToronto]

Canada doesn't have a monopoly on smart people but on a basis of population we're still well ahead of the Russians

Only because you import Chinese and export Celene Dion and Nickleback.

We also don't put our healthcare in the hands of sleazy insurance corporations or spend more on the military than on education.

I tried not to mention the Land of the Incarcerated and the Home of the Emboldened. Sigh.
_________ 

Sorry everybody. I should never have bitten Bargainchop's trollbait. My apologies.

[Denker]

Canada doesn't have a monopoly on smart people but on a basis of population we're still well ahead of the Russians

Only because you import Chinese and export Celene Dion and Nickleback.

We also don't put our healthcare in the hands of sleazy insurance corporations or spend more on the military than on education.

I tried not to mention the Land of the Incarcerated and the Home of the Emboldened. Sigh.

Canada is a great country.
One of the few I could imagine trying to migrate in the case shit hits the fan here in Europe.
Had been there once and it was a great experience.

[billyjoeallen]

Canada doesn't have a monopoly on smart people but on a basis of population we're still well ahead of the Russians

Only because you import Chinese and export Celene Dion and Nickleback.

We also don't put our healthcare in the hands of sleazy insurance corporations or spend more on the military than on education.

I tried not to mention the Land of the Incarcerated and the Home of the Emboldened. Sigh.
_________ 

Sorry everybody. I should never have bitten Bargainchop's trollbait. My apologies.

What does that have to do with intelligence? You benefit from America's military protection and R&D from drug companies while we pay for it. I don't agree with our government policies either, but it doesn't make you smarter. It makes you parasites. If the shit hits the fan, I'm going to Canada too because you disarmed motherfuckers will be easy pickings.