Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Spaceman_Spiff]

In short because it's the most perfect form of money that has ever existed. Eventuslly mr. Market will recognise this and the market will reflect the true value.

Check out Erik Voorhees' articles if you like to reaf a clearly written explanation why Bitcoin is the best money thus far.

I agree, bitcoin is revolutionary. It IS the best form of money that has ever existed.

However, it is still in its infancy whatever way you look at it. For it to BE money it needs a stable price, who is going to trade with something with no fixed value or at least some what of a guarantee of your spending power down the line. The ONLY way to get round this is to stop all this crazy speculation that it's bigger than Jesus/the internet etc and actually use it as money.

Until it is actually used as money en masse all this volatility is just delaying it being mass adopted. Yes a bubble is great for bitcoin, for publicity and adoption, but it NEEDS to deflate and have steady growth in order to compete as money.

All this bullish sentiment that its value right now is in tripple digits or that it will some day be the global currency is irrelevant. Bitcoin needs to walk before it can run and with the only people jumping on the train are expecting it. The price ends up being 99% speculation and 1% asset, this only helps to stunt its growth as a viable currency.

And how are big companies like Apple going to use bitcoin as a currency when it has a market cap of 1 billion?  It would be the equivalent of an elephant trying to get in through the dog-door.  A big market cap helps the viability of the currency.

[Coinseeker]

It IS the best form of money that has ever existed.

Bitcoin = Currency??

 

BitcoinDelusiontalk.com

"Money" can actually be used to purchase all goods and services.  Bitcoin, useless for such.  Perfect for trading thus, at best a commodity.

[WeltMaster]

In short because it's the most perfect form of money that has ever existed. Eventuslly mr. Market will recognise this and the market will reflect the true value.

Check out Erik Voorhees' articles if you like to reaf a clearly written explanation why Bitcoin is the best money thus far.

I agree, bitcoin is revolutionary. It IS the best form of money that has ever existed.

However, it is still in its infancy whatever way you look at it. For it to BE money it needs a stable price, who is going to trade with something with no fixed value or at least some what of a guarantee of your spending power down the line. The ONLY way to get round this is to stop all this crazy speculation that it's bigger than Jesus/the internet etc and actually use it as money.

Until it is actually used as money en masse all this volatility is just delaying it being mass adopted. Yes a bubble is great for bitcoin, for publicity and adoption, but it NEEDS to deflate and have steady growth in order to compete as money.

All this bullish sentiment that its value right now is in tripple digits or that it will some day be the global currency is irrelevant. Bitcoin needs to walk before it can run and with the only people jumping on the train are expecting it. The price ends up being 99% speculation and 1% asset, this only helps to stunt its growth as a viable currency.

I think you are mistakingly overvalueing the impact of price.

When people first criticize bitcoin, who actually understand it and don't scream ponzi, initially outline the fact that spending power is of utmost importance in a currency.

I don't want to be paid at the end of the month in something that can lose or gain a significant portion of wealth in a very short space of time.

Price would follow after mass adoption but why would the mass adopt a volatile currency?

[Spaceman_Spiff]

Bitcoin = Currency??

 

BitcoinDelusiontalk.com

I transact value with other people all over the world by transferring bitcoins.  If you think that's not a currency, then you are the delusional one.

[WeltMaster]

In short because it's the most perfect form of money that has ever existed. Eventuslly mr. Market will recognise this and the market will reflect the true value.

Check out Erik Voorhees' articles if you like to reaf a clearly written explanation why Bitcoin is the best money thus far.

I agree, bitcoin is revolutionary. It IS the best form of money that has ever existed.

However, it is still in its infancy whatever way you look at it. For it to BE money it needs a stable price, who is going to trade with something with no fixed value or at least some what of a guarantee of your spending power down the line. The ONLY way to get round this is to stop all this crazy speculation that it's bigger than Jesus/the internet etc and actually use it as money.

Until it is actually used as money en masse all this volatility is just delaying it being mass adopted. Yes a bubble is great for bitcoin, for publicity and adoption, but it NEEDS to deflate and have steady growth in order to compete as money.

All this bullish sentiment that its value right now is in tripple digits or that it will some day be the global currency is irrelevant. Bitcoin needs to walk before it can run and with the only people jumping on the train are expecting it. The price ends up being 99% speculation and 1% asset, this only helps to stunt its growth as a viable currency.

And how are big companies like Apple going to use bitcoin as a currency when it has a market cap of 1 billion?  It would be the equivalent of an elephant trying to get in through the dog-door.  A big market cap helps the viability of the currency.

Trying to get straight into the claws of an un-innovative (no idea the Antonym?) company like apple is the wrong approach. We need to build companies from the ground up that USE the currency like paypal would, for example. Whether through adoption or creation.

[ChartBuddy]

[Spaceman_Spiff]

And how are big companies like Apple going to use bitcoin as a currency when it has a market cap of 1 billion?  It would be the equivalent of an elephant trying to get in through the dog-door.  A big market cap helps the viability of the currency.

Trying to get straight into the claws of an un-innovative (no idea the Antonym?) company like apple is the wrong approach. We need to build companies from the ground up that USE the currency like paypal would, for example. Whether through adoption or creation.

That was not my point.  My point was that for certain companies to realistically accept bitcoins, the market cap needs to be higher so that when they put in or take out value, the volatility/slippage doesn't hurt them.  "Evil" speculators that put their money in bitcoin will raise the marketcap and thereby help bitcoins transactional use (although emotional trading with buying high and selling low obviously has a negative effect through increasing volatility, but I don't think this can be helped as it is human nature).  So good traders are actually the best for bitcoin :-).  

EDIT: And you are right that we need companies to actually use bitcoin.  Currently, only small companies that can handle the volatility can directly accept BTC reliably (without being speculators, like bitcoinstore.com), other companies have to use intermediaries like Bitpay (which helps bitcoin too imho).

[WeltMaster]

And how are big companies like Apple going to use bitcoin as a currency when it has a market cap of 1 billion?  It would be the equivalent of an elephant trying to get in through the dog-door.  A big market cap helps the viability of the currency.

Trying to get straight into the claws of an un-innovative (no idea the Antonym?) company like apple is the wrong approach. We need to build companies from the ground up that USE the currency like paypal would, for example. Whether through adoption or creation.

That was not my point.  My point was that for certain companies to realistically accept bitcoins, the market cap needs to be higher so that when they put in or take out value, the volatility/slippage doesn't hurt them.  "Evil" speculators that put their money in bitcoin will raise the marketcap and thereby help bitcoins transactional use (although emotional trading with buying high and selling low obviously has a negative effect through increasing volatility, but I don't think this can be helped as it is human nature).  So good traders are actually the best for bitcoin :-).  

So what, we have a huge market cap based around what? Its use to transfer wealth cheaply and quickly through the internet? Big companies are already heavily tied with the traditional banking system. They are not prone to change and they certainly wont for a 5 year old currency with an inflated market cap based on speculation. We need to build from the ground up. Let the companies see people wanting to spend bitcoins and they will follow. Trying to shortcut it is not helping adoption.

[Kazu]

Can people please realize that the more/faster people accept bitcoin, the more volatile the price gets as each new acceptance triggers more people buying to spend, and more merchants selling a bit afterward, as well as increased media coverage == more speculators? This means that until Bitcoin's growth is by definition limited by the largest exchange's market depth (in terms of USD, not Bitcoin). Which, in my humble opinion, is actually a good thing, because when bitcoin starts growing way faster than the exchanges you get goxxian fails like we saw just as the bubble popped.

Acceptance will come with increased market depth. Which is happening over the long term even if it is a bit shaky:




But in the short term, it really isn't. Until we get back the steady market depth growth rates we were having in early march then we sort of aren't getting what we really need.

[adamstgBit]

Can people please realize that the more/faster people accept bitcoin, the more volatile the price gets as each new acceptance triggers more people buying to spend, and more merchants selling a bit afterward, as well as increased media coverage == more speculators...

its best we get most of the growth priced in within the first 16 years so that bitcoin can finally be stable and work properly as a currency  

 


bitcoin is very volatile because its growing  its having growth spurts,  growing some more... its crazy

[Spaceman_Spiff]

So what, we have a huge market cap based around what? Its use to transfer wealth cheaply and quickly through the internet? Big companies are already heavily tied with the traditional banking system. They are not prone to change and they certainly wont for a 5 year old currency with an inflated market cap based on speculation. We need to build from the ground up. Let the companies see people wanting to spend bitcoins and they will follow. Trying to shortcut it is not helping adoption.

It's a pointless discussion anyway.  We'll just let reality play out.

[Coinseeker]

Bitcoin = Currency??

 

BitcoinDelusiontalk.com

I transact value with other people all over the world by transferring bitcoins.  If you think that's not a currency, then you are the delusional one.

I can trade my TV for something else on Craigslist or anywhere in the world.  Does that make my TV a currency? 

[Spaceman_Spiff]

Bitcoin = Currency??

 

BitcoinDelusiontalk.com

I transact value with other people all over the world by transferring bitcoins.  If you think that's not a currency, then you are the delusional one.

I can trade my TV for something else on Craigslist or anywhere in the world.  Does that make my TV a currency? 

A TV has value because of non-monetary uses.  Bitcoin only has value because of monetary use.
Or what is your definition of a currency?

[Frozenlock]

Just when we hit $66, reddit sentiment had finally changed to bearish.
Now there's more readers than there's been in days/weeks.

Everyone was waiting for $50 coins.

High volume on what might be a nice reverse head and shoulders.

This bounce is gonna be epic.  

[Its About Sharing]

In short because it's the most perfect form of money that has ever existed. Eventuslly mr. Market will recognise this and the market will reflect the true value.

Check out Erik Voorhees' articles if you like to reaf a clearly written explanation why Bitcoin is the best money thus far.

I agree, bitcoin is revolutionary. It IS the best form of money that has ever existed.

However, it is still in its infancy whatever way you look at it. For it to BE money it needs a stable price, who is going to trade with something with no fixed value or at least some what of a guarantee of your spending power down the line. The ONLY way to get round this is to stop all this crazy speculation that it's bigger than Jesus/the internet etc and actually use it as money.

Until it is actually used as money en masse all this volatility is just delaying it being mass adopted. Yes a bubble is great for bitcoin, for publicity and adoption, but it NEEDS to deflate and have steady growth in order to compete as money.

All this bullish sentiment that its value right now is in tripple digits or that it will some day be the global currency is irrelevant. Bitcoin needs to walk before it can run and with the only people jumping on the train are expecting it. The price ends up being 99% speculation and 1% asset, this only helps to stunt its growth as a viable currency.

I think you are mistakingly overvalueing the impact of price.

When people first criticize bitcoin, who actually understand it and don't scream ponzi, initially outline the fact that spending power is of utmost importance in a currency.

I don't want to be paid at the end of the month in something that can lose or gain a significant portion of wealth in a very short space of time.

Price would follow after mass adoption but why would the mass adopt a volatile currency?

Tell that to people who's currency is more volatile than BTC. As well as more manipulated. See Argentina. Many of us feel BTC will first see adoption outside America, waaaay outside.

The volatility of BTC is in large part a function of the instability of the current economic system in shambles all over the world. If economies were solid then BTC would still be at $1.
It will take time to find a price. Perhaps it won't even be with BTC, or at least not BTC in its current state.

[WeltMaster]

Bitcoin = Currency??

 

BitcoinDelusiontalk.com

I transact value with other people all over the world by transferring bitcoins.  If you think that's not a currency, then you are the delusional one.

I can trade my TV for something else on Craigslist or anywhere in the world.  Does that make my TV a currency?  

A TV has value because of non-monetary uses.  Bitcoin only has value because of monetary use.
Or what is your definition of a currency?

Gold has non-monetary uses and has been used as a barter of exchange for millennia

It's tough to define, I'd say a widely/generally accepted payment = a currency. People call it cash of the internet so I guess that counts.

Tell that to people who's currency is more volatile than BTC. As well as more manipulated. See Argentina. Many of us feel BTC will first see adoption outside America, waaaay outside.

The volatility of BTC is in large part a function of the instability of the current economic system in shambles all over the world. If economies were solid then BTC would still be at $1.
It will take time to find a price. Perhaps it won't even be with BTC, or at least not BTC in its current state.

That sounds like a good assessment, but surely in 3rd world countries where it is less digitised bringing the digital age will have much more growing pains? Wouldn't they be easier just doing what Zimbabwe has done and use more global currencies?

I mean, we're talking about a country where 1/3rd of its population don't have access to the internet.

http://www.internetworldstats.com/sa/ar.htm


Back on topic: Why hasn't this mini-rally been eaten by bears yet?

[Its About Sharing]

Tell that to people who's currency is more volatile than BTC. As well as more manipulated. See Argentina. Many of us feel BTC will first see adoption outside America, waaaay outside.

The volatility of BTC is in large part a function of the instability of the current economic system in shambles all over the world. If economies were solid then BTC would still be at $1.
It will take time to find a price. Perhaps it won't even be with BTC, or at least not BTC in its current state.

That sounds like a good assessment, but surely in 3rd world countries where it is less digitised bringing the digital age will have much more growing pains? Wouldn't they be easier just doing what Zimbabwe has done and use more global currencies?

Back on topic: Why hasn't this mini-rally been eaten by bears yet?

I think BTC might be a complimentary currency (e.g. with M-Pesa http://memeburn.com/2013/07/kipochi-brings-bitcoin-to-africa-through-m-pesa/) and used in an app like Kipochi. I really think that is the biggest news we've seen for BTC in a while but most people don't see how big it can be. edit - let BTC be used on non smart phones with apps like Kipochi pretty much solves a lot of technological problems.

I do agree with you though in that the volatility is indeed a problem. We are very early in the game BUT at the same time I have a feeling the maturity of usefulness will be reached in ways many of us can't fathom. Remember, BTC is a Black Swan technology of sorts so it's growth will be likewise imo. Kipochi can very well be our first offspring...

Regarding your on topic point  
We have moved from a low of $65 (which I almost felt like jumping into for the bounce but don't like entering at the bottoms of big red candles) to a high of 80.
Perhaps we consolidate a bit and then head back down. It seems like this move up was purely technical.

I do see more decent sized buys coming in but in large part the move was started by a huge buy of 4500. I don't like entering a rally based on a large player. Perhaps it is petering out.
I will see what we do around $85 if we get that high.

IAS

edit - Forgot your question. Yeah, I guess it would be "easier" and use global currencies but some governments won't allow that. I still go back to the complimentary thing. We don't need BTC to be adopted by mass amounts of people (% wise) to be successful (money wise). Think about just one small country using it, or just 1% of people in a few countries as a store of wealth - to move money - for online transactions, etc. That would be huge. Should BTC actually take off and be an internet currency "standard", another doozy.

[ChartBuddy]

[Frozenlock]

Oh goody, how did I miss this?

http://kipochi.com/blog/kipochi-launches-first-bitcoin-wallet-in-africa-with-m-pesa-integration

Even the news will test the bears. 

[Its About Sharing]

Oh goody, how did I miss this?

http://kipochi.com/blog/kipochi-launches-first-bitcoin-wallet-in-africa-with-m-pesa-integration

Even the news will test the bears. 

As I said above, this is HUGE news, but just not yet. If they start using BTC there the floodgates could open up.

What is your update on our price? Think we break through 80, 85?...