Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Dabs]

any statement from proudhon when he will move to El Salvador?

Maybe I'm already there, er, I mean, here.

you must be an early riser, right?

https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/el-salvador

Had to get up early to get some work done.

That looks like bullish news if he's actually there (or considering going there.)

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[strawbs]

Good night guys and bots.

nice move towards improvements in inclusivity, for sure.  

How do we feel about this then?

BlockFi just gathered up $50 million to lend to bitcoin and ethereum holders who don’t want to cash out (yet)

Currently, BlockFi allows investors to take out a loan as high as $10 million using either bitcoin or ethereum as collateral.

Just like lending on Bitfinex, it's all about how much risk you want to take that the platform itself doesn't go under.

You can make somewhere around 1% or so per year on your BTC lending to shorts. But if Bitfinex goes the way of many of the exchanges, then you lose all of your money.

I was listening to an episode of "What Bitcoin Did" while out running the other day and noted that BlockFi is one of its sponsors (they offer fiat loans to borrowers with btc as collateral and also interest-bearing bitcoin accounts). I thought there had been some discussion on these hallowed pages about BlockFi in the past, or perhaps it was something similar, but a quick search came up with only the above discussion.  Which led me to have a few questions...

1. keeping in mind the obvious mantra of 'not your keys, not your coins' and considering the risk of such DeFi groups going under, I was wondering what WOers think of putting a small percentage of your coins into such an interest bearing account?

2. does Elwar think BlockFi or similar entities are now more reliable now that three years have passed?

3. wtf happened to Rosewater Foundation?

I'm far from convinced but it would be nice to get my coins working for me (in terms of increasing their number) instead of just sitting there looking good (and increasing in fiat terms but not in number). But the thought of not having my coins' keys sends me into a cold sweat....

Don't worry about it Strawbs.

Bitcoin is designed to pump forever, so you do not need to get lured into interest bearing nonsense.;.. and the vast majority of them both pay crap and they could well end up tricking you out of your coins because you failed to understand the terms of whatever bullshit contract to which you agreed.


Sure, if you just put a very small amount of your coins into such an instrument for funzies and to learn more, then probably no problem with that, but don't fool yourself into the desperate talking point that you need your bitcoin to earn interest because their appreciation is already built in...

Fuck they have appreciated way more than the 6% per year that I anticipated in 2013..  I should not have to go back and calculate, but I will if you believe that more discussion is needed... because it seems to me that you are actually seriously considering such nonsense and hopefully you are neither that desperate or you cannot figure out ways to engage in your own ongoing BTC accumulation if you feel you need more BTC beyond the overall ongoing BTC price appreciation that has historically occurred and likely to continue to happen to sufficient levels in order to be able to count on at least 12% per year (if not more) especially if you zoom out.. and none of those services are going to pay you 12% per year..

so they can fuck off.. except if you just are playing with them for funzies and you are o.k. with losing those coins.  Note that personally, I am surely not against participating in various aspects of the Bitcoin ecosystem which is part of my rationale for participating in several exchanges for the 7.5 years that I have in bitcoin.. and I have close to 10% of my stash on various exchanges and playing around with various third parties.. but consider the risks of losing those coins too.. and my coins in cold storage are way more than I need for my richie status anyhow  (referring to the near 0.21BTC stash that I may be getting close to having)..

....
3. wtf happened to Rosewater Foundation?
.....

Always wondered that myself actually. I miss the mayor's colorful posts.
All my favorite wo bros seem to have gone bye bye.
Time marches on.
Damn I'm getting old.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ciq0wlhwUVw

The puggie nerdy looking singer in that video kind of looks like what I would have imagined RF/Mayor to look like, for whatever that's worth?

Yeah I guess there is a little bit of a lure, but don't fear for me, I'm not likely to do anything too crazy after all these years of hodling. I don't want to divulge too much information about my personal circumstances but I could (mostly accurately for the purpose of discussion here) say that I am not in the accumulation phase anymore and can rely on my coins as my primary source of funds. Whilst this sounds ok, there remains a niggling annoyance at ever having to sell any bitcoin (what with it being the only real money out there these days).

So I've made a decision to live off my stash but ironically I don't ever want to sell any of them (I know, I know, this doesn't add up, but that's just kind of how it is). So the idea of gaining interest in btc does seem quite attractive at first glance. Theoretically, I could live off the interest and not have to sell any coins.

Alternatively, and perhaps more wisely, would be to simply sell small amounts of coins as needed on an ongoing basis over time, to cover living and lifestyle expenses, accepting that my stash will become smaller as time passes. If I measure my wealth in $, that seems acceptable, but I try to measure my wealth in BTC which is probably where the internal conflict begins.

EDIT - I should add that I no longer work for an income, in the conventional sense, so no fiat with which to buy and further accumulate.

[Dabs]

I don't want to divulge too much information about my personal circumstances but I could (mostly accurately for the purpose of discussion here) say that I am not in the accumulation phase anymore and can rely on my coins as my primary source of funds.

If you can still accumulate, why not, unless your method of accumulation (like normie job) is gone or you quit or retired or whatever. Just keep accumulating, or at least use that instead of your stash, again depending on your own personal circumstances (can you still work, or are you getting too old, or do you want to do something else already, or there is no need to take care of anyone else ...)

You know the usual advice of 4% Safe Withdrawal Rule? There are arguments this number should be lower now, or at least be conservative and target 3% or even lower.

In other words, if your annual expenses are below $30k USD, and you have $1m USD in traditional investments, you should be okay for the next 30 years. If you have it all in Bitcoin, you should be okay too.

If you have enough to throw that portion into BlockFi or Gemini Earn or Celsius or some other legit looking, backed by some insurance company kind of not your keys entity, you could use only that portion to live off of, while keeping the rest in cold storage.

If you need the whole amount of your stash to be able to do that and live off the 4%, I'd argue that you don't have enough yet and should still be trying to accumulate or delay spending from the stash as long as possible.

DeFi is the alternative to centralized institution based loaning/interest, but that would mean putting that into shitcoins or tokens pegged to bitcoin, with the wrapped bitcoin (WBTC) about 1% right now, or so I've read.

Stablecoins come to mind if you do a once-a-year bitcoin transaction. You get what you think you'll need for the year, but instead of cashing it out at your exchange, you turn that spending money into a stablecoin, which you can still self-custody or keep in cold storage and then you can do a monthly thing with that without worrying about the price of bitcoin. If your exchange is Gemini, then of course you'd use GUSD (or USDG?) ... or USDC, or PAX or even DAI ... I would try to avoid Tether when you have alternatives.

If you have enough bitcoin at the current price (and it remains at this price) to spend without earning any interest on it for the next 30 years, then maybe you already have enough. If it goes up, as most of us suspect it will, within those 30 years, then you'll have more than enough. But you have to consider that will go down sometimes too.

[Arriemoller]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-57398274

Congress approved President Nayib Bukele's proposal to embrace the cryptocurrency, with 62 out of 84 possible votes on Tuesday night.

The president said the government had made history, and that the move would make it easier for Salvadorans living abroad to send money home.

Bitcoin will become legal tender, alongside the US dollar, in 90 days.

The new law means every business must accept Bitcoin as legal tender for goods or services, unless it is unable to provide the technology needed to do the transaction

Wasn't it seen as legal tender by other countries before the announcement?
Could of sworn some place in Sweden or Germany viewed it as currency because they have banks which accept it.
They can make deposits to their bank accounts, so that to me is considered legal tender.

Sweden doesn't have a legal tender per se, anyone is free to use whatever currency they want, and any store can refuse or accept any currency they want, including SEK. The tax authorities have decided to only accept SEK though.

[cAPSLOCK]

You see it don't you? Not everyone does.  I figure MOST of us WO folks do...  Crazy.  We are STILL so early.

It's about to get so crazy.

El Salvador has volunteered to be the first country to go live in PRODUCTION with the lightning network.  They will be richly rewarded for this.

I think those laser eyes are so silly...  But I almost want to put them on all my images now.

[Arriemoller]

@ Mugtaya.

There are cantons in Switzerland where you can pay taxes with bitcoin if I recall correctly, maybe that's what you were thinking of?

[Gyrsur]

Sweden doesn't have a legal tender per se, anyone is free to use whatever currency they want, and any store can refuse or accept any currency they want, including SEK. The tax authorities have decided to only accept SEK though.

fact check: it's different in Sweden.

For 350 years, Swedish society has relied on the Riksbank to provide the general public with various forms of the country’s currency, the Swedish krona. Cash issued by the Riksbank has been legal tender since the 1850s. Cash use has decreased rapidly in Sweden and a scenario within the not-too-distant future, in which cash is not generally accepted, can’t be ruled out.

https://www.riksbank.se/en-gb/press-and-published/notices-and-press-releases/press-releases/2019/the-riksbank-proposes-a-review-of-the-concept-of-legal-tender/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-29/swedish-central-bank-wants-answer-to-what-s-legal-tender-fast

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[somac.]

lets see if this channel holds

[Gyrsur]

@ Mugtaya.

There are cantons in Switzerland where you can pay taxes with bitcoin if I recall correctly, maybe that's what you were thinking of?

Canton "Zug" accept bitcoins but Bitcoin is not a legal tender in Switzerland in general.

https://www.efv.admin.ch/efv/en/home/themen/waehrung_gewinnaussch_int/oeff_zahlungsmittel.html

The Federal Law on Currency and Payment Instruments stipulates the Swiss currency to be the franc. Legal tender – i.e. payment instruments by which monetary debts may be settled with legal effect – are, according to that law, banknotes, coins, and sight deposits at the Swiss National Bank. For historical reasons, they are issued by two different institutions: The Swiss National Bank issues banknotes, while Swissmint – an autonomous unit of the Federal Finance Administration managed by performance mandate and global budget – strikes coins.

[proudhon]

lets see if this channel holds

It won't hold because bitcoin cannot stay above $35k as I've confirmed multiple times now.

[Gyrsur]

lets see if this channel holds

It won't hold because bitcoin cannot stay above $35k as I've confirmed multiple times now.

just finished stacking SATs for today?  

EDIT: I have to apologize deeply to you Mr. President. Please keep up the excellent work to get Bitcoin the global world reserve currency.

[El duderino_]

https://twitter.com/btc_archive/status/1402613883852951559?s=21

https://bitcoinarchive.substack.com/p/bitcoin-is-legal-tender

Amazing link

[Karartma1]

https://twitter.com/btc_archive/status/1402613883852951559?s=21

https://bitcoinarchive.substack.com/p/bitcoin-is-legal-tender

Amazing link

Thanks Bro

I feel so Salvadorian these days

[Gyrsur]

https://twitter.com/btc_archive/status/1402613883852951559?s=21

https://bitcoinarchive.substack.com/p/bitcoin-is-legal-tender

Amazing link

El Salvador President Nayib Bukele participated in Twitter Spaces hosted by Nic Carter.

Here’s a summary of all of the major points he made in a conversation which lasted for over 1 hour:

• Government Bitcoin Wallet will be developed by Jack Mallers Strike - Free & Available to all in El Salvador. Opt-in only.
• People are free to use any wallet.
• Accepting Bitcoin is going to be a mandate for all merchants.
• Merchants cannot refuse Bitcoin.
• USD will remain exclusive unit of account for corporate balance sheets.
• Taxes can be paid in Bitcoin.
• Commercial contracts can be settled in Bitcoin where previously denominated in USD.
• $150m Government Trust Fund to remove BTC exchange risk to small merchants - opt-in only.
• Initial estimate only to seed Trust Fund.
• Permanent residency to anybody who invests 3 BTC in El Salvador.
• Government will build out internet infrastructure to promote connectivity to Bitcoin.
• Not worried about international finance sector response because this is an opportunity for everybody.
• It will reduce remittance commissions from 30% to almost zero + the creation of jobs — it’s good for everybody.
• Reduce problem for US at the border because of more opportunities in El Salvador for people.
• We have to do a lot of explaining and campaigning.
• This is not something for rich people only. Bitcoin is for everybody.
• A lot of inequality comes from the central banking system.
• Everybody pays the price of their money being diluted.
• Bitcoin solves a lot of things.
• If we can change our future, other countries will follow.
• Weapons are bought with USD. Money laundering is with the USD. Also jewels and EUR and Yen.
• The problem is the illegal activity, not Bitcoin.
• Government Mining Bitcoin: Not thinking about it, but we can do things to promote it.
• We have a plan for geothermal energy - from volcanoes that’s 100% clean.
• We lose a lot of energy in transport that could be used for industry - potentially mining too.
• A lot of people will attack this because they support other ideas - but we should support Bitcoin adoption so it takes hold.
• Bitcoin is proving it carries benefits for the common folk.
• We were inspired by the project of Bitcoin Beach and the work Jack Mallers has been doing in El Salvador.

Thank you for reading.
If you enjoyed it, please share this with your friends

[xhomerx10]

any statement from proudhon when he will move to El Salvador?

Maybe I'm already there, er, I mean, here.

you must be an early riser, right?

https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/el-salvador

Had to get up early to get some work done.

That looks like bullish news if he's actually there (or considering going there.)

 Confirmed sources indicate that proudhon is the president of El Salvador.

[Richy_T]

@Richy_T: the pic represents the Bitstamp Orderbook over a time of 1 hour in 3D, right?

the walls below are then the (passive) Limit Orders in the Orderbook? on the left the Buy Limits? and on the right the Sell Limits? what about the (passive) Stop Orders? any chance to get them from the Orderbook?

Correct. I only have access to what is provided by the API. I don't see an option for that there.

https://www.bitstamp.net/api/

^^ IMO, better you speak in terms of orders. (passive) Limit and Stop Orders of the one party of the deal (Buy or Sell). (active) Market orders of the other party of the deal (Sell or Buy).

Possibly. Bear in mind that the explanation is more for the uninitiated who might not be familiar with these terms. Those familiar with trading are likely to just "get it". It's basically the bottom part from bitcoinity.org made 3D.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[El duderino_]

https://www.manners.nl/gta-6-crypto-bitcoin/?utm_medium=FacebookEchobox&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1Z9ZBMpnL-0QwChEq0ESrCBQ0SQ0AoWeiVoZnOngl3gHJVKtUbWggpa4E#Echobox=1623054251

GTA 6 to be about BTC 

[xhomerx10]

You see it don't you? Not everyone does.  I figure MOST of us WO folks do...  Crazy.  We are STILL so early.

It's about to get so crazy.

El Salvador has volunteered to be the first country to go live in PRODUCTION with the lightning network.  They will be richly rewarded for this.

I think those laser eyes are so silly...  But I almost want to put them on all my images now.

 There's nothing silly about a 100k bitcoin though