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Question: How far will this leg take us?
$110K - 9 (8.3%)
$120K - 19 (17.6%)
$130K - 17 (15.7%)
$140K - 9 (8.3%)
$150K - 19 (17.6%)
$160K - 2 (1.9%)
$170K+ - 33 (30.6%)
Total Voters: 108

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26912002 times)
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October 24, 2025, 05:24:32 PM

Could this new change make things easier (and cheaper) for bad actors to add illegal content to the blockchain, as opposed to the current way to do it, as in the White Paper example you've shown above?
Easier no.
Cheaper also no.

Arbitrary data could already be included fairly easily, and with segwit discount. This relay policy "relaxation" just makes it easier to have a continuous piece of data that is long, e.g. 100 KB. Note that this continuous piece is outside segwit, so it's more expensive.
I don't think this kind of change will have any impact on ordinary users or holders.
However, it may have some impact on those who work with large encryptions..
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October 24, 2025, 06:36:36 PM

Got to rush to work, so I'll be very brief.

I see a scenario where bad actors add CP material in Bitcoin's blockchain (immutable). This could result in a worldwide push to completely ban Bitcoin and make it a criminal offense to even hold BTC, let alone host a node. The politicians (and anyone, really) will be extremely sensitive when it comes to the spread of CP in a permanent, immutable way (i.e., the only way it can be taken down is by shutting down the entire blockchain altogether). <-- The perfect reason to ban/criminalize it.

I hope I haven't really understood the OP_RETURN issue and what I'm saying above can't happen, but I don't like this at all. I hope I'm wrong.

Unfortunately you've seen exactly the attack vector that several are worried about.

I do not think so.
If somebody wanted to do that he could do it already before, otherwise how did the Satoshi Whitepaper end up on-chain?

https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/transactions/btc/54e48e5f5c656b26c3bca14a8c95aa583d07ebe84dde3b7dd4a78f4e4186e713

https://bitcoiner.dev/2021/01/30/lets-get-the-bitcoin-whitepaper-from-the-blockchain/

My rpc-explorer even has an included decoder for block 230009.

Thanks for this.

I clearly have to read more on OP_RETURN. Could this new change make things easier (and cheaper) for bad actors to add illegal content to the blockchain, as opposed to the current way to do it, as in the White Paper example you've shown above? A 100 KB data packet can easily contain a high-res offensive photo in JPG or other compressed format.

Just saying...

Easier yes.  Cheaper, no.  It is still cheaper to use witness space.

One of the sillier arguments (IMHO) in support of the change is "Well no one will use it anyway".
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October 24, 2025, 07:33:52 PM
Last edit: October 24, 2025, 08:07:41 PM by Satofan44
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I don't usually post in this section, but even here you are spreading misinformation about OP_RETURN.

Summary conclusion:  We have yet to see the second order effects of this change.  The reasoning for including it are weak.  There is a significant portion of the community either running Bitcoin Knots, or =<v29 in protest.  Core has risked their position as the trusted maintainers of the Bitcoin reference client. Though scary narratives exist on both sides of the argument many levelheaded folks can see this in nuance and predict that Bitcoin will likely survive.  
The reasons for not including it are even weaker. Most of the users should not have an opinion on this topic, you do not understand what you are talking about. This change has changed nothing for the worse, there is absolutely no data that shows that anything is different.

The real question will be if Bitcoin Core can rehabilitate the massive loss of trust they have sustained.
You are too easily manipulated, I'm surprised that you survived the fork wars. This kind of social attack shows what is the weakest link of Bitcoin. It is not Bitcoin Core, it is not the protocol, it is the users. That you could get so easily manipulated over an issue that does not impact you at all (changing magic numbers, which is precisely what policy rules are) into running a client that has no peer review of any kind just shows how weak the user part of the equation really is.

I see a scenario where bad actors add CP material in Bitcoin's blockchain (immutable). This could result in a worldwide push to completely ban Bitcoin and make it a criminal offense to even hold BTC, let alone host a node. The politicians (and anyone, really) will be extremely sensitive when it comes to the spread of CP in a permanent, immutable way (i.e., the only way it can be taken down is by shutting down the entire blockchain altogether). <-- The perfect reason to ban/criminalize it.
There is already malware and CSAM in Bitcoin, it has been there since the early days. You can't prevent it from being added. There is no filter in the world that could prevent every possible way for someone to embed this kind of data.

I hope I haven't really understood the OP_RETURN issue and what I'm saying above can't happen, but I don't like this at all. I hope I'm wrong.
Yes, you are wrong.


Many miners have been privately and some publicly bypassing OP_RETURN limits that are in Bitcoin Core for a long time. This is a trivial patch that any kid with an AI can do within minutes. If you pay, they will include it in the blockchain. If they block it by some chance you just need to obfuscate it and they will include any type of CSAM. Will they shut down Mara for this?  Roll Eyes

To make things worse, running Knots does not do anything except put people at risk. You are still validating and storing blocks that contain OP_RETURNs, both those that contain malware and those that contain CSAM. Luke-jr is an unhinged lunatic, not much better than Roger Ver. He's capitalizing on misinformation to regain relevance. Besides him, you have Nick Szabo who seems to have had a brain seizure in the past. What other prominent member is backing this? Nobody. What's next, you will include Faketoshi's opinion on OP_RETURN? Do I need to remind people that just because someone is a prominent member in Bitcoin that they can have wrong opinions on many issues including this one?



I expect that long term holders do better instead of falling for low level propaganda. If you want some correct information you can listen to this podcast.
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The ETF era Bitcoin Drama - 2025  Part TWO!

In this post I will give a brief overview of some of the more vocal, and known people weighing in and the key players around the change.

But first let's define some things.  Consensus vs Policy.  Consensus refers to the rules that all nodes follow to validate transactions and blocks, ensuring agreement across the network. Policy, on the other hand, involves the specific rules that nodes use to determine which transactions to accept into their mempool, which can vary between different nodes and does not affect the validity of blocks.  The blocksize debate cir 2017 was consensus.  This one is policy.

What is OP_RETURN?  OP_RETURN is a script opcode in Bitcoin that allows users to embed arbitrary data in a transaction output, marking it as unspendable. It was introduced in Bitcoin Core version 0.9.0 in 2014, though I believed Satoshi had plans for something like this from the beginning. It was originally added in part because of the same argument we are having now.  To allow people to put data in a transaction, and to make that data prunable so less good options would be used, specifically creating "fake UTXOs" to store data which CANNOT ever be deleted.  These fake UTXOs have to be loaded in memory, and put a burden on the node potentially increasing the level of hardware needed, thus driving out the less expensive nodes.

Peter Todd -  One of the more divisive and well known contributors and developers for Core.  Famous for his adversarial thought, but also someone who has pushed MANY controversial ideas and BIPs.  Famously he would like to modify Bitcoin's consensus rules to include a tail emission like Monero.  Perhaps even more controversial than this proposed change to policy.  Todd has submitted more than on Bitcoin Improvement Proposal (BIP) suggesting the "datacarrier size" restriction of 80 (and before that 40) bytes be removed entirely to allow any sized op_return.

Jameson Lopp
- Another long time early bitcoinner, contributor, and eventually VC.  In this drama he was key to pushing the change, and recently admitted it was on behalf of one of the companies he is an investor in "Citrea".  Ironically Citrea does not even need the data in the blockchain, but ONLY IN THE MEMPOOL though this means it's stored on full (archival) nodes forever anyway.  And not only did Citrea only ask for 160 bytes (another 2x basically) but the CEO also said they would rather Core back down and not do any change because of the contention.  Lopp has been VERY abrasive, and arguably arrogant during this drama mocking those who were against it all the way along.

Luke Dashjr - An original Core dev, and longtime bitcoin OG.  Perhaps the 2nd most prolific contributor to Bitcoin Core as well as the lead maintainer of the fork Bitcoin Knots. Luke is ANOTHER lightning rod.  Perhaps the most autistic of all the devs (no offense to any of us neurodivergent folk here.  I am among you.) and perhaps one of the most black and white thinkers I have ever witnessed.  Luke does nothing on the medium setting.  He is a hardcore Catholic, has disliked almost all recent popes, and has 11 children.  He has been VERY loud during this debate, and tends to say things in such polarized ways that people can accuse him of being contradictory.  Most recently saying things like "It has never been possible to put images on the blockchain until v30" which makes his opposition howl in laughter.  What they do not see is his take on even this is VERY deep and actually has reasoning behind it. He considers using a hack to store image data as illegitimate and therefore "not possible" without abusing the protocol.  He is such a powerful adversarial thinker than Blockstream hired him to sit in the room during meetings just to speak up when he had an issue.  He is now employed by Ocean.  A mining pool that is working hard to stop miner centralization and works to put individual miners in the drivers seat for what they include in a block.  He has focused overly on the CSAM (child porn) angle in the debate, but this too fits his worldview.

Adam Back
- A reference in the whitepaper!  Often put forward as Satoshi himself, though he denies this (and I do not think he is Satoshi).  Inventor (some refute this) of proof of work to help eliminate spam (sound familiar?) in email.  He seemed to work out his position on this in public on X.  This confused many.  As one minute he seemed pro filters, and the next anti.  He has ended up on the Core side, and has done a LOT of level headed apologetics for that position and some interviews.  One of the cooler heads in the debate, though he also get a little nasty on X and says harsh things about Dashjr.  But this is understandable sionce Luke is a bit difficult to process, and as I said EXTREMELY binary.  Back concedes that justr doing a bump to 160 would have made the most sense, and does not try to argue 100k was a good idea.  He also is very protective of the core devs and afraid this controversy will make some of them flee.

Nick Szabo - Oddly NOT a reference in the whitepaper.  And one of the most fitting candidates to be Satoshi (he also denies it).  Inventor of BitGold which was ALMOST bitcoin.  Szabo reappeared on X after a 5 year hiatus.  Some think this issue may be why.  This is speculation.  Szabo is a polymath.  He is a cryptographer, a Juris Doctor (a law PHD), a prolific and respected writer on economics, the history of money.  He is the inventor of "smart property" as well as "smart contracts".  He isa STRONGLY right leaning Libertarian (as far as I would guess) and has been quite vocal on this issue.  He has landed firmly in the Filters camp, has suggested people run Knots as "hopefully a temporary measure" and advised at least not to upgrade to V30.  His comments on this have been mostly in the arena of second order effects, enlarging bitcoin's attack surface as well as the legal implications of the change.

Jason Hughes (bitcoinmechanic) -  Another employee of Ocean.  Hughes is a very well spoken communicator and passionate spokesperson for filters and running Knots.  He does not have the cryptography background of many others.  But his layman's take matches a lot of the other Bitcoin community who tend more to the philosophical, and economic positions (like Jeff Booth, or Tomer Stoughlite - also Knots camp).  In a recent debate at the Bitcoin conference in Lugano he received a 45 second standing ovation after making his point.  The look on Peter Todd's face was priceless. Wink  Hughes has more than once said he does not agree with Luke 100% but obviously they agree on most of it.

Gloria Zhao  Bitcoin Core's lead maintainer.  Gloria is the person that merged the PR.  She is a fairly recent graduate from Berkley, and though she has some impressive history there is some controversy around how she was appointed (Chaincode plays a role here and claims of nepotism as she was someone's girlfriend??) and recent clips from an interview on the WBD podcast which really show her in a negative light.  Showing her as on the pro NFT camp.  She has taken a LOT of heat and mockery.  Some of it absolutely brutal, and sometimes misogynist.  Though there is an overage of White Knighting from others, and even if you make a good argument against her you are labeled a misogynist.

Greg Maxwell  Well known, loquacious and generally extremely opinionated OG dev.  He has weighed in several times with his typical fiery screeds.  He has been viciously critical of Luke Dashjr barely hiding his disgust at Luke's extremely strong faith.  He has argued here on this forum as well as in google groups and github for the core side.  He seems to have coined the term "distributed authoritarianism" during this debate.  Definitely worth dipping into for some of the hardest hitting pro core arguments.

Matthew Kratter - Prolific Youtube Bitcoin vlogger.  https://www.youtube.com/@Bitcoin_University  Perhaps the loudest voice amongst the "podcasters" (a term used by the core folks as a dig, saying this argument is between qualified developers, and podcaster morons).  Kratter has likely lost some of his audience by sticking on this topic so doggedly for weeks (if not months).  He has always made quite good Maxi centric short videos for some time, and has agressively been making points about the problems with "blowing open" (a Knots side label for the 100k increase) OP_RETURN.  Worth watching, and hopefully he can get back to vlogs that are not around this topic someday.

OK!  I could go on and on, as you all know.  And there are MANY MANY voices on both sides from names many of us will recognize.  There was a recent discussion (pro Knots) between Jimmy Song and Guy Swan that is worth watching.  The debates at Lugano hosted by Stephan Livera (very pro core) might be worth watching...  and then there is the endless list of X/Twitter shittalkers and jackasses.  But I think the list above gets the bulk of the real key voices.

Next in my series will be a summary of the two arguments.  I will try to be balanced. Wink 
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October 24, 2025, 08:30:51 PM
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Most of the users should not have an opinion on this topic, you do not understand what you are talking about.

This is a very good sample of one of the most used arguments by both sides.  Though I think it has been used much more heavily by the pro-core contingent (the Knots side could be chided similarly for thier overuse of the CSAM argument just to be fair).

"Shut up.  You should not even have an opinion.  You are too stupid."

This was actually the first red flag for me.  It is not an argument it is a manipulative dismissal.  Lopp was saying this as well as the anonymous dev "Calle" a lot early on.  And it really rubs me the wrong way.  It reminded me of what the BSVers were saying years back...  same thing.  You don't get it because you are not smart enough to.

Sadly this argument works to lock in middle of the bellcurve folks who like to flagwave for the camp they want to identify with... if the people on the opposite side are the dumb ones casting misinformation and should "have no opinion" that makes those saying this part of the smart camp.

In this case I would challenge you to make that argument to Nick Szabo.

Many of the brightest minds in Bitcoin are making well reasoned reasoned, thoughtful arguments on BOTH sides of the issue.  And I think they are worth hearing.  I particularly was edified by watching Adam Back's evolution particularly since, though he can sometimes sling shit like the rest of them, he made some of the better, and less toxic arguments for the side of the issue he ended up on (core).

One thing I do not want to do with my posts is start a flame war here.  But i can only be responsible for my part of that.  So I will do my best not to sling shit.
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October 24, 2025, 08:38:09 PM

Most of the users should not have an opinion on this topic, you do not understand what you are talking about.
This is a very good sample of one of the most used arguments by both sides.  Though I think it has been used much more heavily by the pro-core contingent (the Knots side could be chided similarly for thier overuse of the CSAM argument just to be fair).

"Shut up.  You should not even have an opinion.  You are too stupid."
Yes, when you regularly come to wrong opinions and spread misinformation you should shut up.

In this case I would challenge you to make that argument to Nick Szabo.

Many of the brightest minds in Bitcoin are making well reasoned reasoned, thoughtful arguments on BOTH sides of the issue.  And I think they are worth hearing.  I particularly was edified by watching Adam Back's evolution particularly since, though he can sometimes sling shit like the rest of them, he made some of the better, and less toxic arguments for the side of the issue he ended up on (core).
I already addressed this.
Do I need to remind people that just because someone is a prominent member in Bitcoin that they can have wrong opinions on many issues including this one?


Further I already destroyed the CSAM argument, the malware argument, the claim that something is different, and that Knots solves anything. What else do you have?

There is already malware and CSAM in Bitcoin, it has been there since the early days.
Here.

Many miners have been privately and some publicly bypassing OP_RETURN limits that are in Bitcoin Core for a long time.
Here.

To make things worse, running Knots does not do anything except put people at risk. You are still validating and storing blocks that contain OP_RETURNs, both those that contain malware and those that contain CSAM.
And here.



Continue to do the bidding of those that want to divide us, impressive display of non-stupidity indeed. There is one objective truth here, there is no room for interpretations and opinions no matter who the author is.
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October 24, 2025, 08:44:15 PM
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I don't usually post in this section, but even here you are spreading misinformation about OP_RETURN.

{snip}

This reads to me like a paid for post, how about you explain to my why you care so much about setting people straight that have been here for over a decade.


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Date Registered:    May 02, 2025, 10:31:48 AM
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I don't usually post in this section, but even here you are spreading misinformation about OP_RETURN.

{snip}

This reads to me like a paid for post, how about you explain to my why you care so much about setting people straight that have been here for over a decade.

The time that you have spent here does not indicate anything. To make things worse, you are spreading misinformation while I am correcting misinformation on every platform that I am on. You don't even know who I am.

The Knots propaganda has reached very far. The irony here is that the Knots propaganda is fairly well funded. Meanwhile those that are countering it are almost entirely volunteers, and you think that I am the paid agent.  Roll Eyes If you have been here for over a decade you should be ashamed of yourself for falling for this Luddite misinformation. You don't deserve Bitcoin, but luckily for you Bitcoin does not care who you are.
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October 24, 2025, 08:51:28 PM
Last edit: October 24, 2025, 09:26:51 PM by Hueristic
Merited by cAPSLOCK (5), JayJuanGee (1), bitserve (1)


I don't usually post in this section, but even here you are spreading misinformation about OP_RETURN.

{snip}

This reads to me like a paid for post, how about you explain to my why you care so much about setting people straight that have been here for over a decade.

The time that you have spent here does not indicate anything. To make things worse, you are spreading misinformation while I am correcting misinformation on every platform that I am. You don't even know who I am. {snip}

I disagree, you'll have a hard time schooling those of us that have heard it all and make up our own minds, and trying to come in here and tout the party line that you think we have not heard before is not only laughable its is insulting.

*welcome to the ignore list little one.
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I disagree you'll have a hard time schooling those of us that have heard it all and make up oyur own minds and trying to come in here and tout the party line that you think we have not heard before is not only laughable its is insulting.

*welcome to the ignore list little one.
Tagged for spreading misinformation. Fuck off 1st world pajeet.  Kiss The things that the luddites convince themselves based on time passed, meanwhile you don't even know the difference between policy and consensus rules. Real OG Bitcoiner you are.  Roll Eyes
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[
I disagree you'll have a hard time schooling those of us that have heard it all and make up oyur own minds and trying to come in here and tout the party line that you think we have not heard before is not only laughable its is insulting.

*welcome to the ignore list little one.

Jeff Booth recently posted on this very thing you're saying.



meanwhile you don't even know the difference between policy and consensus rules.

That's funny, I'm pretty sure I defined the difference between those two things perfectly up there in my giant misinformation post.
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October 24, 2025, 09:06:37 PM

Jeff Booth recently posted on this very thing you're saying.
If you refer to yourself as an independent thinker you are already lost in the sea of misinformation.  Smiley

meanwhile you don't even know the difference between policy and consensus rules.

That's funny, I'm pretty sure I defined the difference between those two things perfectly up there in my giant misinformation post.
Yet you are complaining that they are changing magic numbers (policy rules) and ignoring all the points that I highlighted. This is what you call independent thinking? I have a nice thing to share with you then. All policy limits will be removed eventually and there is nothing that you can do about it because all those transactions align with the consensus rules. Some people have even purposefully embedded illegal content since the advent of the OP_RETURN debate because the filter side is just too stubborn to admit that they are wrong.

You, cAPSLOCK, are storing this illegal content today on your Knots node. Congratulations, you have accomplished absolutely nothing by running it. How does it make you feel? Does it stroke the independent thinker ego?  Cheesy
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October 24, 2025, 09:08:27 PM

Jeff Booth recently posted on this very thing you're saying.
If you refer to yourself as an independent thinker you are already lost in the sea of misinformation.  Smiley

meanwhile you don't even know the difference between policy and consensus rules.

That's funny, I'm pretty sure I defined the difference between those two things perfectly up there in my giant misinformation post.
Yet you are complaining that they are changing magic numbers(policy rules) and ignoring all the points that I highlighted. This is what you call independent thinking?

This is over between you and me.
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October 24, 2025, 09:10:15 PM

This is over between you and me.
No arguments little filterboy?  Roll Eyes Go whine to Nick Szabo to make another tweet. On one side you have radical maxis on the other side you have religious fanatics and authority worshipers disguised in independent thinker costumes.  Cheesy
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I don't like this, I like memes.



Who sold their chairs to DCA more? Every sat counts!
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