Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[ChancellorOnABrink]

We need to talk, please sit down.

https://i.imgur.com/5j1IJnx.jpg

[adamstgBit]

bitcoin is a very diverse group... its not at all accurate to say any significant % of the community, is  anti-government, or libertarian or wtv. maybe it was true in 2011 but i dont think its true anymore. even from the post we see here, no one seems to agree on anything, expect that the price of bitcoin is ... ya no, no one agrees on anything anymore.

[adamstgBit]

oh look a wall.

[grappa_barricata]

And big sell walls @bitstamp out of fucking nowhere.

Come on, go buy some slippage-free coin.

[xyzzy099]

Indeed, there seems to be a fundamental dilemma there.  Satoshi solved the problem of secure trustless e-payments, but there is still no solution for the problem of recovering stolen coins without spoiling that primary goal.

Jorge, here is a study of an important case involving the theft of bank notes and the Royal Bank of Scotland.  This case illustrates pretty clearly why fungibility of a currency takes precedence over being able to recover stolen currency.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2260952

Note that the verdict there was based on the fact that the current owner of that physical note acquired it by legitimate means in good faith, so the court had a good argument to decide that that physical note was no longer the victim's property.   The victim of course still retained the right to get the amount of 20£ (not that physical note) back from the thief, if he would ever be identified; in which case the government would take that amount from the thief's possessions, in whatever form they would find it, and return it to the victim. 

Ideally the same should happen in bitcoinland: if a hacker steals one bitcoin from you, and buys a megapizza with it, you should be able to ask the government to hunt down the hacker, and take one bitcoin (not THAT bitcoin), or equivalent dollars, from HIS possessions (not from the pizza parlor's possessions)  and return it to you.

But, in reality, you will not even be able to prove to the police that a theft took place.

You have missed the point.  The 'problem' you describe is not a problem at all, but a fundamental requirement of ALL currencies.  It's called 'fungibility'.

The ruling of the court in this case recognized the validity of the Royal Bank's claim that allowing 'marked' bills to be forcibly returned to their rightful owner in the case of a theft would utterly destroy the utility of the notes as money.  Fungibility is a hard requirement for any real currency.




 

[iram3130]

And big sell walls @bitstamp out of fucking nowhere.

Come on, go buy some slippage-free coin.

Lol, there is nothing we called free coin, everything has value.
If Bitcoin was free or will be free then there will be no value and
who get free will sell at what rate they will get.

[klee]

507 btc bought at once 

[Habeler876]

507 btc bought at once 

Yep, quite a buy on Stamp. Don't see any follow-up here, and no one following on the other exchanges, though. Probably that guy will afford us some more time sideways.

[grappa_barricata]

And big sell walls @bitstamp out of fucking nowhere.

Come on, go buy some slippage-free coin.

Lol, there is nothing we called free coin, everything has value.
If Bitcoin was free or will be free then there will be no value and
who get free will sell at what rate they will get.

[DubFX]

And big sell walls @bitstamp out of fucking nowhere.

Come on, go buy some slippage-free coin.

Compensated by 537 buy wall, so nothing bad at all

[jl2012]

I have some sliver coins got stolen. Please teach me how I could recover them.

You go to the police and hope that they can catch the thief and get your coins back.

So just do the same in case your bitcoin is stolen.

Do you know of any case?

If they could catch DPR and seize his bitcoin I can't see why it is fundamentally impossible to catch a bitocin thief.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[samsonn25]

Not difficult to track, to take the coins out of the wallet is tough without the keys.

[ssmc2]

Almost 5k to 500 what the

[derpinheimer]

This is the third major wall on bit stamp alone in ~10 days, totaling about 7000btc.

Include bitfenix and its more than double that.

Yet we still have people saying moon.

[jl2012]

Indeed, there seems to be a fundamental dilemma there.  Satoshi solved the problem of secure trustless e-payments, but there is still no solution for the problem of recovering stolen coins without spoiling that primary goal.

This is unsolvable. Please ponder about the definition of 'stolen' in a system where property is defined by 'knowledge of a key'.
There is no way to mathematically demonstrate that a transaction, for example, was fraudulent. Or that if two people know the same key then one is a rightful owner (whatever that means) and the other is not.

Precisely!

One fundamental flaw of  cryptocoins (that supportes consider a feature) is that they are intended to eliminate the notion of "property" for money, and leave only "possession" instead.

You have "possession" of something if you physically can use it or dispose of it as you like.

The thing is your "property" if, and only if, the  government thinks you should have possession of it, and you can get his cops and courts to get it.

If a thief steals your car, it becomes his possession; but it is still your property, because the government thinks so, and is expected to take the car from him and give it back to you, by force if needed, once he is found.  If your tenant stops paying the rent and refuses to leave, the house is still your property because the government thinks so, and will help you get the guy out.    If a hacker empties you bank account, he may get possession of the money, but that money is still your property -- only because the government thinks so.  If you fail to pay taxes by the due date, you retain possession of that money, but it will be property of the government -- just because they think it is.

There is no way to define propeprty without reference to some government.  If there is no government, there is no property, only possession; and when something gets stolen from you, it becomes the thief's possession, and that is it.  YOU (and your friends) may think that it is still your property, but the thief (and his friends) will disagree; what then?  

By design, cryptocoins (as the libertarians see them) are meant to be impossible for any government (or any other entity) to take away from their possessors.  But then, by design, no government (or any other authority) can enforce any property rights on cryptocoins.  (Indeed, early adopters had hoped that the government would be unable even to discover who has possession of the coins; and now that bitcoin has been found to be inadequate in this aspect, they  are turning to more sophisticated "truly anonymous" altcoins.)  

Therefore, there is no concept of "property" in the realm of cryptocoins.  Only "possession".

The notion of "property" as distinct from "possession" is very old; it may have been invented when humans adopted agriculture and settled down, abandoning the "share the catch" economy of nomadic hunter-gatherers.  It has become such a basic feature of society that people seem to forget what makes it work.  

Do we really want to eliminate the concept of "property" with regards to money?
  
(PS. And then there is the misleading use of "possession" instead of "knowledge" when talking about keys; but that is another issue.)

All your examples: cars, houses, bank account, tax are non-anonymous. Try again with cash, gold bullion.

Satoshi made it very clear in the title of the white paper: Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. Bitcoin is e-cash, not a e-car or e-house.

[klee]

This is the third major wall on bit stamp alone in ~10 days, totaling about 7000btc.

Include bitfenix and its more than double that.

Yet we still have people saying moon.

On the other hand someone very patiently eats them...

[findftp]

This is the third major wall on bit stamp alone in ~10 days, totaling about 7000btc.

Include bitfenix and its more than double that.

Yet we still have people saying moon.

On the other hand someone very patiently eats them...

I've noticed a 0.9BTC willy bot at bitstamp. It's there for some days/weeks

[DubFX]

I have some sliver coins got stolen. Please teach me how I could recover them.

You go to the police and hope that they can catch the thief and get your coins back.

So just do the same in case your bitcoin is stolen.

Do you know of any case?

If they could catch DPR and seize his bitcoin I can't see why it is fundamentally impossible to catch a bitocin thief.

The case is that they have revalved the true location of servers quite easily (FBI) even without needing NSA or however they are called, i did read it today.
And fake IDs addressed to DPR got catched by customs.

[klee]

This is the third major wall on bit stamp alone in ~10 days, totaling about 7000btc.

Include bitfenix and its more than double that.

Yet we still have people saying moon.

On the other hand someone very patiently eats them...

I've noticed a 0.9BTC willy bot at bitstamp. It's there for some days/weeks

It both buys and sells depending on the market