ICONOMI - Live for today. Invest for tomorrow.

[MoveCrypto]

Golem just got added to Polo for ETH and BTC pair

This is the good thing about this project, you benefit in every way, on the platform and also from other projects performance that ICONOMI invested into

Since ICONOMI team invested into the Golem project, therefore Golem's pump can be the profit of ICONOMI's holders. ICN may have a good pump if the price of golem increases.

Yes ICN can only benefit from this pump. But do expect a dump soon. Because a pump of more than 84% will create dumps afterwards

If Iconomi will be added to poloniex, then maybe it will also get a pump like other coins that got added in there.

the law allows???

What law ? Kraken is a US based exchanger. Poloniex is also a US based exchanger.

It's just that ICN team doesnt want ICN to be listed for now on other exchangers until platform is launched

Kraken and Poloniex are holding different lincenes, Poloniex will not allowed ICN because it falls under security asset, don't forget this exchanges are setup to make money and will do everything to make money for themselves but will not go above board to list any project and be fined any ridiculous amount of money.

Concerning the price of ICN I think it will continue to fall, we are now in ICO season and I expect people to be taking profit and flip it into next big thing in town.

That is incorrect.  Both Kraken and Poloniex are registered money-services-business with FinCEN.  Neither exchange has any license from SEC that would allow them to list securities.

Holding ICN doesn't give you any legal right to anything.  A normal security like a stock gives you legal ownership of equity in a company.  Cryptographic tokens have not yet been classified as securities in court or in legislature.

Poloniex listed DAO tokens, which were also ETH-dividend-paying tokens

Biggest reason it's not listed on Poloniex is probably because Iconomi devs didn't give them the green light or Poloniex just doesn't list ethereum tokens often.

How many times must we repeat this same thing over and over again?

[MoveCrypto]

I looked into CryptoInsiders past posts. He has made 'pump' comments about Lisk just as others (his alts I guess) have done for ICONOMI. These are the exact same phrases like "the price increase will be of biblical proportions", "massive magnitude", "celestial dimensions" etc. I remember these EXACT same phrases on the ICONOMI thread! So I think this is a group of people or just 1 person with a large number of alternative accounts who works like this: Buys a coin -> Spreads FOMO/high price expectations -> price increases -> sells high -> spreads FUD and drops the price again to buy low.

Exactly this.  

It's obvious from the posting style/history that these accounts (and many others) were all operated by the same pump/dump group:

aDAPPter --------> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=804360
Warren_Buffett -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=928757
Wall-Street ------> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=839468
Coca-Cola -------> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=927634
TopTrade ---------> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=953961
KK99 --------------> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=354824
MGM --------------> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=800094
CryptoInsiders --> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=826008
435613422 -------> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=168412
JayBerretti -------> https://www.reddit.com/user/JayBerretti
nukecookie -------> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=314019
btcrising ----------> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=314730

You can see they invented the "Feb. 9 announcement" rumor then pumped that rumor on slack, reddit, and BCT from dozens of accounts.

This group may have been behind the 1M ICN fake buywall on Kraken.

The fake buy wall was removed 5 February.  The accounts started fudding on 6 February, then turned up the intensity/frequency of the fudding starting from 8 February.

This leads me to assume it is a well-funded group that has at least 400 BTC to set buy walls with, and probably a similar amount of ICN as well.  

This means they can make the Kraken orderbook/chart show whatever they want.  They can transfer a large amount to Kraken then dump to their own buy walls to create panic if they have more than 1 Kraken account.

[open82buy]

What was ico price?

The ICO price was 0.1257 USD per ICN.

Current coinmarketcap price is 0.3272 USD per ICN, so the token is currently at 2.6X ICO.

I am HODLING.

but most ICO 70% was in BTC price at that time was 22000sat...
That matter because they have assets about 16-20$m behind company or even with al those investments more.
So if some are making comparison to past price it can be some kind delusion.
Effects of hard work usually rise net worth over time if ICNX and ICNP will be good funds ICONOMI will be worth much more.
In real life shares pays 0,5$ per 40$ share dividends will be most price driving factor.
If crypto trens will continue we will eat some part of ETFs cake for sure.
Lets be honest BTC is cool but curently vs alts sucks.
Yesterday it took 6h to get confirmation.
I was cashing out BTC. I was thinking about ICN but i holded thinked 2x and IMO ICN and alts are future.
BTC with all block size drama slow reaction on changes will fall  like rock in water vs other alts.
When it will loose market  cap miners with 2x what has happened.
BTC problems last from 2015y... and now in 2017 they are in same place that whole block size drama will stop BTC from evolving.
I will hold cash in alts and BTC but for me BTC today is overpriced vs alts.
At some point fundamentals like speed and limits will kick in and BTC price will fall vs alts.
And here we have ICN ready to get cash from BTC vs other alts.

I am fan of BTC but i am not blinded and I see how alts are progressing vs BTC.

If people will look on long time fundamentals they will see that change is coming .
BTC will force people to using alts - in terms of speed and costs.

Another point of view is that BTC will still remain the top coin (Gold Standard) and price will still increase higher and be used for larger transactions. There will be other layers build on top such as Segwit,lightning and others yet to come to deal with smaller transactions and speed confirmations. I am holding my BTC, some ETH and certain tokens on the ETH platform like ICN. I agree some alts will also be used for certain needs.

[vasdav]

Only 22 btc to 0.00038. Pump it!

[BTCSpearo]

Golem just got added to Polo for ETH and BTC pair

This is the good thing about this project, you benefit in every way, on the platform and also from other projects performance that ICONOMI invested into

Since ICONOMI team invested into the Golem project, therefore Golem's pump can be the profit of ICONOMI's holders. ICN may have a good pump if the price of golem increases.

Yes ICN can only benefit from this pump. But do expect a dump soon. Because a pump of more than 84% will create dumps afterwards

If Iconomi will be added to poloniex, then maybe it will also get a pump like other coins that got added in there.

the law allows???

What law ? Kraken is a US based exchanger. Poloniex is also a US based exchanger.

It's just that ICN team doesnt want ICN to be listed for now on other exchangers until platform is launched

Kraken and Poloniex are holding different lincenes, Poloniex will not allowed ICN because it falls under security asset, don't forget this exchanges are setup to make money and will do everything to make money for themselves but will not go above board to list any project and be fined any ridiculous amount of money.

Concerning the price of ICN I think it will continue to fall, we are now in ICO season and I expect people to be taking profit and flip it into next big thing in town.

That is incorrect.  Both Kraken and Poloniex are registered money-services-business with FinCEN.  Neither exchange has any license from SEC that would allow them to list securities.

Holding ICN doesn't give you any legal right to anything.  A normal security like a stock gives you legal ownership of equity in a company.  Cryptographic tokens have not yet been classified as securities in court or in legislature.

Poloniex listed DAO tokens, which were also ETH-dividend-paying tokens

Biggest reason it's not listed on Poloniex is probably because Iconomi devs didn't give them the green light or Poloniex just doesn't list ethereum tokens often.

How many times must we repeat this same thing over and over again?

Pretty sure we were sold ICN under the pretense that tokens represented 100% ownership of the company. ICN is indeed an unregistered foreign security as far as US standards go. I don't really have a problem with that.

[psimoes]

Anyone as tested http://portal.melonport.com? I hope ICONOMI platform can do better than that...

[MoveCrypto]

Golem just got added to Polo for ETH and BTC pair

This is the good thing about this project, you benefit in every way, on the platform and also from other projects performance that ICONOMI invested into

Since ICONOMI team invested into the Golem project, therefore Golem's pump can be the profit of ICONOMI's holders. ICN may have a good pump if the price of golem increases.

Yes ICN can only benefit from this pump. But do expect a dump soon. Because a pump of more than 84% will create dumps afterwards

If Iconomi will be added to poloniex, then maybe it will also get a pump like other coins that got added in there.

the law allows???

What law ? Kraken is a US based exchanger. Poloniex is also a US based exchanger.

It's just that ICN team doesnt want ICN to be listed for now on other exchangers until platform is launched

Kraken and Poloniex are holding different lincenes, Poloniex will not allowed ICN because it falls under security asset, don't forget this exchanges are setup to make money and will do everything to make money for themselves but will not go above board to list any project and be fined any ridiculous amount of money.

Concerning the price of ICN I think it will continue to fall, we are now in ICO season and I expect people to be taking profit and flip it into next big thing in town.

That is incorrect.  Both Kraken and Poloniex are registered money-services-business with FinCEN.  Neither exchange has any license from SEC that would allow them to list securities.

Holding ICN doesn't give you any legal right to anything.  A normal security like a stock gives you legal ownership of equity in a company.  Cryptographic tokens have not yet been classified as securities in court or in legislature.

Poloniex listed DAO tokens, which were also ETH-dividend-paying tokens

Biggest reason it's not listed on Poloniex is probably because Iconomi devs didn't give them the green light or Poloniex just doesn't list ethereum tokens often.

How many times must we repeat this same thing over and over again?

Pretty sure we were sold ICN under the pretense that tokens represented 100% ownership of the company. ICN is indeed an unregistered foreign security as far as US standards go. I don't really have a problem with that.

100 % of the ICONOMI tokens represent 100 % ownership of the ICONOMI platform, comprising of all assets and liabilities, as well as each and every right and obligation, including but not limited to intellectual property rights, branding and trademarks.

ICN will be an Ethereum-based token of value. Tokens are a digital asset, bearing value by  themselves  based  on  their  underlying  assets,  properties  and/or  rights.  ICN  tokens represent ownership of the ICONOMI platform, allowing their holders to receive dividends and vote on ICONOMI related issues

Keyword here is represent.  Meaning this is what the ICN tokens represent based on trust.  

Nowhere did it say ICN are convertible to actual shares of Iconomi Inc, the company that controls all the crypto raised in ico.

It's like how contributors to ETH or LSK icos don't have any legal rights in Ethereum Foundation or Lisk Foundation.

[andraxyz]

Golem just got added to Polo for ETH and BTC pair

This is the good thing about this project, you benefit in every way, on the platform and also from other projects performance that ICONOMI invested into

Since ICONOMI team invested into the Golem project, therefore Golem's pump can be the profit of ICONOMI's holders. ICN may have a good pump if the price of golem increases.

Yes ICN can only benefit from this pump. But do expect a dump soon. Because a pump of more than 84% will create dumps afterwards

If Iconomi will be added to poloniex, then maybe it will also get a pump like other coins that got added in there.

the law allows???

What law ? Kraken is a US based exchanger. Poloniex is also a US based exchanger.

It's just that ICN team doesnt want ICN to be listed for now on other exchangers until platform is launched

Kraken and Poloniex are holding different lincenes, Poloniex will not allowed ICN because it falls under security asset, don't forget this exchanges are setup to make money and will do everything to make money for themselves but will not go above board to list any project and be fined any ridiculous amount of money.

Concerning the price of ICN I think it will continue to fall, we are now in ICO season and I expect people to be taking profit and flip it into next big thing in town.

That is incorrect.  Both Kraken and Poloniex are registered money-services-business with FinCEN.  Neither exchange has any license from SEC that would allow them to list securities.

Holding ICN doesn't give you any legal right to anything.  A normal security like a stock gives you legal ownership of equity in a company.  Cryptographic tokens have not yet been classified as securities in court or in legislature.

Poloniex listed DAO tokens, which were also ETH-dividend-paying tokens

Biggest reason it's not listed on Poloniex is probably because Iconomi devs didn't give them the green light or Poloniex just doesn't list ethereum tokens often.

How many times must we repeat this same thing over and over again?

Pretty sure we were sold ICN under the pretense that tokens represented 100% ownership of the company. ICN is indeed an unregistered foreign security as far as US standards go. I don't really have a problem with that.

100 % of the ICONOMI tokens represent 100 % ownership of the ICONOMI platform, comprising of all assets and liabilities, as well as each and every right and obligation, including but not limited to intellectual property rights, branding and trademarks.

ICN will be an Ethereum-based token of value. Tokens are a digital asset, bearing value by  themselves  based  on  their  underlying  assets,  properties  and/or  rights.  ICN  tokens represent ownership of the ICONOMI platform, allowing their holders to receive dividends and vote on ICONOMI related issues

Keyword here is represent.  Meaning this is what the ICN tokens represent based on trust.  

Nowhere did it say they are convertible to legal ownership shares of Iconomi Inc, the company that controls all the crypto raised in ico.

It's like how contributors to ETH or LSK icos don't have any legal rights in Ethereum Foundation or Lisk Foundation.

Thats true... Now all the people will slowly start to realize that they have succumb to FUD on basically no evidence. I feel sorry for them but can't blame them, the FUD campaign was realy strong. ICN will recover just like ETH recovered the FUDing when it was 6$ per ETH a few months back

[MalReynolds]

Pretty sure we were sold ICN under the pretense that tokens represented 100% ownership of the company. ICN is indeed an unregistered foreign security as far as US standards go.

Wrong and wrong.  ICN tokens represent 100% ownership of the intellectual property of the ICONOMI software platform and all fees which are gathered from its use - NOT ownership in Cashila, which is the registered Slovenian company that is the initial service operator of the ICONOMI platform.

From page 7 of the whitepaper (see https://ethbuy.iconomi.net/ICONOMI_Whitepaper.pdf ) :

"ICONOMI will issue 100 milion ICONOMI tokens (ICN) 10 days after the crowdfunding
campaign successfully ends. 100 % of the ICONOMI tokens represent 100 % ownership
of the ICONOMI platform, comprising of all assets and liabilities, as well as each and every
right and obligation, including but not limited to intellectual property rights, branding and
trademarks."

So...to use an analogy, ICN represents ownership in MS-DOS, not Microsoft.  Or Farmville, not Zynga.

Nowhere did it say ICN are convertible to actual shares of Iconomi Inc, the company that controls all the crypto raised in ico.

Actually, there is no "ICONOMI, Inc."  From Whitepaper page 8:

"Cashila OOD s.r.o. (hereinafter referred to as “Cashila”  <https://www.cashila.com/> ) will serve as the first service
operator of the ICONOMI platform. Having at its disposal the required knowledge,
technical skills and manpower, as well as the status of a financial institution and a longstanding
relationship with both the crypto and investment communities, Cashila will
undertake to develop and manage the ICONOMI platform in accordance with the vision
outlined in this white paper and detailed in the accompanying documentation on behalf of
the ICN token holders. Cashila does not and will not claim or register any kind of property,
trademark or other rights pertaining to the ICONOMI platform. All intellectual property
rights, trademarks, branding and other rights remain exclusively the property of the
ICONOMI platform. "

Bottom line: ICN tokens are ownership shares in a piece of software and the money it generates.  ICN is not ownership of any company (especially not Cashila OOD s.r.o. , registration information at  http://rejstrik.penize.cz/03621111-cashila-ood-s-r-o ) , and thus is not a security, unregistered or otherwise.

[MoveCrypto]

Let's take a look at ICN blockchain movements since the FUD campaign began on 6 February

Looking at top 30 accounts in descending order:

The biggest movement was withdraws from ico platform account to exchanges.  These are more likely to be crypto newbies who don't have ethereum wallets and who are easily panicked
980k transferred to exchanges  
Largest chunks: 75k, 63k, 47k, 37k, 33k, 32k, 28k, 27k, 25k, 20k, 20k, 20k, 19k, 18k, 18k, 17k, 16k, 16k, 15k, 15k, 14k, 13k, 13k, 13k, 12k, 11k, 11k, 10k, 10k, 10k, 10k, 10k
https://etherscan.io/token/ICONOMI?a=0xcf40d0d2b44f2b66e07cace1372ca42b73cf21a3

100k transferred to Kraken
https://etherscan.io/token/ICONOMI?a=0x2ccc5a059a1bda4c3c3c594516e812a0b15799c9

20k transferred to Kraken
https://etherscan.io/token/ICONOMI?a=0xc6bfce8cead4ecc595ba227b9527afa914dd8183

100k transferred to Kraken
https://etherscan.io/token/ICONOMI?a=0x7ad41e9d6e1fa47f1f6bcc63bd0327009590a47b

77k transferred to Kraken
https://etherscan.io/token/ICONOMI?a=0x6fd78c5e9b84a2abb8fdfaed1428726200af5a9d

300k transferred to Kraken - $1M worth of ETH in the same account, so it seems odd he transferred 60% of his ICN balance to exchange, unless he wanted to panic market and buy cheaper
https://etherscan.io/token/ICONOMI?a=0xf61e8af772c7e6c4ba446a5f5df8c76bba37432b

100k transferred to Kraken
https://etherscan.io/token/ICONOMI?a=0xc51d990dcf1afb87c02fddf8153cc58ca54a6471

1.8k withdrawn from Kraken
https://etherscan.io/token/ICONOMI?a=0x8af53ab13ddb53981b56a523c90c88a6295199b0

164k withdrawn from Kraken
https://etherscan.io/token/ICONOMI?a=0xfc7bc59f4c1fc6dd424529f1c9d48a62b649ad43

A transfer doesn't necessarily mean buying/selling, just interesting data to look at.

Interesting thing is only 9 out of the top 30 accounts had any movements at all since 6 February.

[BTCSpearo]

Pretty sure we were sold ICN under the pretense that tokens represented 100% ownership of the company. ICN is indeed an unregistered foreign security as far as US standards go.

Wrong and wrong.  ICN tokens represent 100% ownership of the intellectual property of the ICONOMI software platform and all fees which are gathered from its use - NOT ownership in Cashila, which is the registered Slovenian company that is the initial service operator of the ICONOMI platform.

From page 7 of the whitepaper (see https://ethbuy.iconomi.net/ICONOMI_Whitepaper.pdf ) :

"ICONOMI will issue 100 milion ICONOMI tokens (ICN) 10 days after the crowdfunding
campaign successfully ends. 100 % of the ICONOMI tokens represent 100 % ownership
of the ICONOMI platform, comprising of all assets and liabilities, as well as each and every
right and obligation, including but not limited to intellectual property rights, branding and
trademarks."

So...to use an analogy, ICN represents ownership in MS-DOS, not Microsoft.  Or Farmville, not Zynga.

Nowhere did it say ICN are convertible to actual shares of Iconomi Inc, the company that controls all the crypto raised in ico.

Actually, there is no "ICONOMI, Inc."  From Whitepaper page 8:

"Cashila OOD s.r.o. (hereinafter referred to as “Cashila”  <https://www.cashila.com/> ) will serve as the first service
operator of the ICONOMI platform. Having at its disposal the required knowledge,
technical skills and manpower, as well as the status of a financial institution and a longstanding
relationship with both the crypto and investment communities, Cashila will
undertake to develop and manage the ICONOMI platform in accordance with the vision
outlined in this white paper and detailed in the accompanying documentation on behalf of
the ICN token holders. Cashila does not and will not claim or register any kind of property,
trademark or other rights pertaining to the ICONOMI platform. All intellectual property
rights, trademarks, branding and other rights remain exclusively the property of the
ICONOMI platform. "

Bottom line: ICN tokens are ownership shares in a piece of software and the money it generates.  ICN is not ownership of any company (especially not Cashila OOD s.r.o. , registration information at  http://rejstrik.penize.cz/03621111-cashila-ood-s-r-o ) , and thus is not a security, unregistered or otherwise.

I don't know why Cashila came into this (i didnt bring it in) but would not the Iconomi platform and it's intellectual property et al comprise an entity in which our tokens represent ownership? Seems like a security.

Is your argument that the platform and its associated intellectual property would be considered some sort of digital commodity?

We're all aware that ICN represents little more than ownership of software, intellectual property, and the revenue stream generated by that software and IP but how is that much different than with a company like Facebook?

[MoveCrypto]

Pretty sure we were sold ICN under the pretense that tokens represented 100% ownership of the company. ICN is indeed an unregistered foreign security as far as US standards go.

Wrong and wrong.  ICN tokens represent 100% ownership of the intellectual property of the ICONOMI software platform and all fees which are gathered from its use - NOT ownership in Cashila, which is the registered Slovenian company that is the initial service operator of the ICONOMI platform.

From page 7 of the whitepaper (see https://ethbuy.iconomi.net/ICONOMI_Whitepaper.pdf ) :

"ICONOMI will issue 100 milion ICONOMI tokens (ICN) 10 days after the crowdfunding
campaign successfully ends. 100 % of the ICONOMI tokens represent 100 % ownership
of the ICONOMI platform, comprising of all assets and liabilities, as well as each and every
right and obligation, including but not limited to intellectual property rights, branding and
trademarks."

So...to use an analogy, ICN represents ownership in MS-DOS, not Microsoft.  Or Farmville, not Zynga.

Nowhere did it say ICN are convertible to actual shares of Iconomi Inc, the company that controls all the crypto raised in ico.

Actually, there is no "ICONOMI, Inc."  From Whitepaper page 8:

"Cashila OOD s.r.o. (hereinafter referred to as “Cashila”  <https://www.cashila.com/> ) will serve as the first service
operator of the ICONOMI platform. Having at its disposal the required knowledge,
technical skills and manpower, as well as the status of a financial institution and a longstanding
relationship with both the crypto and investment communities, Cashila will
undertake to develop and manage the ICONOMI platform in accordance with the vision
outlined in this white paper and detailed in the accompanying documentation on behalf of
the ICN token holders. Cashila does not and will not claim or register any kind of property,
trademark or other rights pertaining to the ICONOMI platform. All intellectual property
rights, trademarks, branding and other rights remain exclusively the property of the
ICONOMI platform. "

Bottom line: ICN tokens are ownership shares in a piece of software and the money it generates.  ICN is not ownership of any company (especially not Cashila OOD s.r.o. , registration information at  http://rejstrik.penize.cz/03621111-cashila-ood-s-r-o ) , and thus is not a security, unregistered or otherwise.

I don't know why Cashila came into this (i didnt bring it in) but would not the Iconomi platform and it's intellectual property et al comprise an entity in which our tokens represent ownership? Seems like a security.

What legal structures, laws, or court case precedents are there for having ownership of a software platform via holding a crypto token?

Seems like a unregulated grey area.

Just because a crypto token "seems like a security" to you, does not mean it has ever been legally classified as one.

Bitcoin "seems like money" to most people, yet a Judge in a Miami court case surprisingly ruled that "Bitcoin isn't real money"

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/26/bitcoin-not-real-money-miami-judge

When you go into uncharted territory with a business venture, you must have some balls and remember it is easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission.


p.s. Member 19 December when ICN hit 33k satoshi for the first time and we were joyful.  I member.

[BTCSpearo]

Think about it like this.  If a group of people got together and said they were selling shares in a rental property they were going to build it would be considered a security because the implication is that the group raising the money is going to do work in order to return value to the investors. Now replace "rental property" with "software platform" and its the exact same situation.

I don't have a problem with unregistered foreign securities, I don't really think its the US governments business telling me who I can and can't invest with, but lets not bullshit ourselves about what this really is.

If the property or the platform were already built it might be a different matter, but that's not the situation we have.

All the same, I'm hodling cuz I think something will get built.

[leero9]

what was ICO price?

[0gantia]

Oh ? I was thinking FUD campain was finish but looks like it's not.

I wish all the bad to you my friend

[Enjorlas]

Please do not listen to CryptoInsiders. They are one of many troll accounts that spam this thread with misinformation.

[MalReynolds]

what was ICO price?

0.1257 USD per ICN.

[Enjorlas]

Who is this cryptoinsiders, why is he hating this project so much, i mean icn is trying to deliver and answer Q and A, but why he is even trying to find news to proof ICN is a wrong token Sad [\quote]


I suppose you missed it but the old thread had to be closed down because numerous accounts including CryptoInsiders (all believed to be the same person) were relentlessly spamming the thread with misinformation. About every other post was the same copy and pasted misinformation in giant font with red letters. The mods refused to do anything about it so Iconomi was forced to close the thread and create a new self moderated one.

[shinratensei_]

noobs crying wolf lumping everyone who is not pumping/cheerleading like them as single user to make themselves seem more relevant.

It seems like you're the real cheerleader every day was screaming about shit everywhere and anytime.  

[BTCSpearo]

Its not like ICN is the only crypto security being advertised and traded within the US (SNGLS). And its not necessarily in the interest of the US to crack down on this industry and push its growth and development out of the country. If the SEC was going to shut down crypto development in the US it probably would have done so already. I say HODL your ICN because when the platform launches the trolls will just melt away.