Police State?

[Severian]

 I hate the people that stand in the corner and start questioning.

Ah. The mindset of every "good" citizen since Athens.

[goatpig]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/19/us/boston-area-violence/index.html


"The government is invoking the public safety exception to question Tsarnaev, meaning in cases of national security a person can be questioned without being read their Miranda rights,"

"Republican Senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham called for Tsarnaev to be held as an enemy combatant."

DISGUSTING

Why is that disgusting? The guy bombed an area and killed people that is disgusting.


I like how you people in this thread are all up in arms about the government setting in effect actions to protect more people. This thread is just as bad as the anti-jewish threads. Seriously.

What was that quote By Ben Frankie... somethin about liberty and safety... hmm 

Something like "Those who give away part of their liberty for more safety don't deserve neither and will lose both"

[deadweasel]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/19/us/boston-area-violence/index.html


"The government is invoking the public safety exception to question Tsarnaev, meaning in cases of national security a person can be questioned without being read their Miranda rights,"

"Republican Senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham called for Tsarnaev to be held as an enemy combatant."

DISGUSTING

Why is that disgusting? The guy bombed an area and killed people that is disgusting.


I like how you people in this thread are all up in arms about the government setting in effect actions to protect more people. This thread is just as bad as the anti-jewish threads. Seriously.

What was that quote By Ben Frankie... somethin about liberty and safety... hmm  

So you want anarchy, we just all have weapons and protect ourselves?

"Enemy combatant" is bullshit.  You're either a criminal or a prisoner of war.

Just because we don't follow this rule anymore doesn't make it less true.  this is the same problem with Guantanamo Bay --- hundreds of people whisked away without a word, never to be seen or heard from again, with no say whatsover, no proof of anything, so on and so forth.  

If he wants to stay silent, that is his right.    If they want to torture him with my tax money, that is NOT their right.

Criminal = Miranda rights
POW = Geneva Convention.


The rest of the shit this country has pulled with extraordinary rendition and enemy combatants is complete bullshit and manipulation of the constitution.  

he is a criminal and should be treated as such, according to the rules of our society.  making up new rules and new categories doesn't cut it.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[myrkul]

But explain how did they change a VIDEO from a security camera which clearly shows a man put the package down, and that package blowing up.

You saw them retrieve this tape from the security camera? You watched it at the security station?

No? You watched a grainy video that the news station told you was from a security camera?

OK, just checking.

[Severian]

At least quote me correctly, don't pull out stuff to suit your needs.

I hate the people that stand in the corner and start questioning. There is nothing to question, there is proof definitive.

It changes nothing. It's still the mindset of every "good" citizen, from Athens onward.

I seen the raw video.

Not to be mean, but did you go to American public schools? Destruction of language is also destruction of critical thought so it might explain a lot.

[Severian]

You saw them retrieve this tape from the security camera? You watched it at the security station?

No? You watched a grainy video that the news station told you was from a security camera?

OK, just checking.

He hasn't shown us the video he's talking about. I don't watch TV so I have no idea if it even exists in the first place.

[deadweasel]

But explain how did they change a VIDEO from a security camera which clearly shows a man put the package down, and that package blowing up.

You saw them retrieve this tape from the security camera? You watched it at the security station?

No? You watched a grainy video that the news station told you was from a security camera?

OK, just checking.

+1    I very much wish to believe what I see on TV, but when you consider that everything you see though a TV screen is manipulation of some sort (even if they believe what they are telling you), you must be wary.

I KNOW that i don't know what happened that day, I know that I will never know for sure (I wasn't there, I can't prove the videotape is real -- I haven't even seen it yet).

to say that you know for sure one way or another is a lie.  so to treat someone as if they are already guilty is not justified.

I hope he talks and tells us what happened.  I hope we can believe him and that it won't just be manipulation.  I hope this kid didn't sell his life so that his girlfriend could stay alive or whatever far fetched 24 style scenario I can make up.

ALL I KNOW IS THAT I DON'T KNOW.    But I refuse to take part in the destruction of our liberty.

Also, I hate fucking football.

[Severian]

ALL I KNOW IS THAT I DON'T KNOW.    But I refuse to take part in the destruction of our liberty.

Also, I hate fucking football.

+1, would read again.

[myrkul]

But explain how did they change a VIDEO from a security camera which clearly shows a man put the package down, and that package blowing up.

You saw them retrieve this tape from the security camera? You watched it at the security station?

No? You watched a grainy video that the news station told you was from a security camera?

OK, just checking.

It is actually pretty clear but I guess CGI is so amazing, it is clearly him. And not on a news station. So wrong.

Well, you could always, I donno... present the evidence you're holding up as gospel.

[deadweasel]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/19/us/boston-area-violence/index.html


"The government is invoking the public safety exception to question Tsarnaev, meaning in cases of national security a person can be questioned without being read their Miranda rights,"

"Republican Senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham called for Tsarnaev to be held as an enemy combatant."

DISGUSTING

Why is that disgusting? The guy bombed an area and killed people that is disgusting.


I like how you people in this thread are all up in arms about the government setting in effect actions to protect more people. This thread is just as bad as the anti-jewish threads. Seriously.

What was that quote By Ben Frankie... somethin about liberty and safety... hmm 

So you want anarchy, we just all have weapons and protect ourselves?

"Enemy combatant" is bullshit.  You're either a criminal or a prisoner of war.

Just because we don't follow this rule anymore doesn't make it less true.  this is the same problem with Guantanamo Bay --- hundreds of people whisked away without a word, never to be seen or heard from again, with no say whatsover, no proof of anything, so on and so forth. 

If he wants to stay silent, that is his right.    If they want to torture him with my tax money, that is NOT their right.

Criminal = Miranda rights
POW = Geneva Convention.


The rest of the shit this country has pulled with extraordinary rendition and enemy combatants is complete bullshit and manipulation of the constitution. 

he is a criminal and should be treated as such, according to the rules of our society.  making up new rules and new categories doesn't cut it.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

You know what, he engaged the police with bombs and assault weapons, at that point he is an "Enemy combatant". So for public safely we should treat him like criminal and if he left bombs in houses and they blow up well then OOPS he had rights. Come on you don't believe that. If it was your family member blown up you be the first one down there asking to torture him.

Yes, if it was my family member I would be exceedingly emotional.  It would strain everything in my body and soul to try to forgive him.  I may or may not succeed.  But I would try.  I am trying now.

As for criminal or pow, call him EITHER ONE, and treat him according to those rules.  Don't make up new ones.

[Severian]

Well, you could always, I donno... present the evidence you're holding up as gospel.

Evidence requires questioning. That's a no-no, apparently.

[nak]

Just remember the American government and media that youre currently abiding by are the same guys that sold you the 911 commission report. You know, the one that has been disproved by countless academics, architects and structural engineers who are leaders within their fields.

[Severian]

I mean what more do you need?

Proof, evidence or a hint of either. Thus far, we only have the word of two unreliable sources: government and media.

[deadweasel]

Just remember the American government and media that youre currently abiding by are the same guys that sold you the 911 commission report. You know, the one that has been disproved by countless academics, architects and structural engineers who are leaders within their fields.

+1          deadweasel  ::  puts on his tin-foil cowboy hat  ::

If it wasn't for physics debunking 9/11, I wouldn't be so skeptical now.    False flag terrorism is real, and we should be looking for it.  It is the most profitable endeavor I can think of  (considering government contracts awarded to private companies).


:: removes tinfoil cowboy hat  ::

[goatpig]

I don't know what people gave up? They looked in people's houses for a dangerous man, no one else was arrested so I think the manhunt was more important then anything else at that time.

So can I ask what is the appropriate way for a government to handle this situation? What do you say monday morning quarterbacks?

I was only responding about the Franklin quote, but since you insist upon antagonizing everyone who doesn't abide by your perspective, here's my take:

This administration is attempting to pass gun control laws while at the same time, it indulges in an inappropriate, wide scale display of force, which is akin to an effective form of martial law. This is the "what people gave up" part.

Handling the suspect in such fashion also constitutes a major contradiction with the habeas corpus, which is the corner stone of modern civilization, as you are enjoying right now. I don't understand how you can abide by these kind of practices, regardless of the evidence you think is acceptable to charge the suspect with.

The first step to tyranny is disarming the population and the formation of a police state. The second one is bypassing justice and its rigorous process on the premise of national priority. Look at what we have here. A single act of terrorism and the populace applauds while the fundamental ideals of its nation are being trampled by big centralized power.

[Severian]

I will not comment on 9/11 that actually affected my immediate family, I could only comment with emotion.

I lost a close friend that worked in NYC. It doesn't prevent me having the opinion that everything that came out of DC and the TV was unadulterated manure. What's doubly sorrowful is that my friend would have seen through the smokescreen also had he not been murdered by his own government.

[Severian]

No we have proof, security camera footage that is clear. But you want the time machine option that is ok.

Show me this video.

[deadweasel]

As for criminal or pow, call him EITHER ONE, and treat him according to those rules.  Don't make up new ones.

They didn't make up news ones, those rules are clearly defined, we as a society have to protect more people then just one, and he obviously did it, there is video and pictures and people saw him leave the package, I mean what more do you need? A time machine so you can personally witness it come on.

A time machine would be ideal, but we don't have that. 

Call him a criminal, give him his miranda rights, put him in jail.  At that point, if the FEDS want to torture him for more information, they are going to do it. 

All I'm saying is that if they torture him, they are guilty too -- even if they removed a bomb from someone's house.  They still tortured a sick human being. 

Sometimes people are really really really sick and twisted and messed up (and they may never come back from it).  But to treat them as anything but sick is violent and will only bring more violence. 

Also, if you were in the area, take some fucking responsibility and check your house for bombs....  I mean, right? 

[deadweasel]

No we have proof, security camera footage that is clear. But you want the time machine option that is ok.

Show me this video.

+1


Does anybody here know someone with video forensics skills? 

[Matthew N. Wright]

Does anybody here know someone with video forensics skills? 

I could dust it for fingerprints if you want.