Police State?

[1m1nd]

Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

That only works if a police state is defined as "throwing people you like in jail."

So what country do you regard as so much more free than the US that you feel justified in saying that the US is a police state?

Like he said, he doesn't see it as a relative issue.

[Hawker]

...snip...

Ah - so calling the US a "police state" is not a meaningful criticism then is it?  Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

It draws attention to the increasing militarisation of the police in the US and the continuing squeeze on civil liberties.

EDIT: it certainly is a valid criticism, when comparing the US of today with the US of say, 20 years ago.

So its not true now but it could become true if you warn people.

Fair enough.  

[Hawker]

Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

That only works if a police state is defined as "throwing people you like in jail."

So what country do you regard as so much more free than the US that you feel justified in saying that the US is a police state?

Like he said, he doesn't see it as a relative issue.

It doesn't matter how he sees it - it actually is a relative issue.  Otherwise the term "police state" is meaningless.

[Severian]

So what country do you regard as so much more free than the US that you feel justified in saying that the US is a police state?

Any country that doesn't throw its citizens in jail for a plant. Iraq under Saddam was freer than the US if using this metric but it was still a police state.

[1m1nd]

It doesn't matter how he sees it - it actually is a relative issue.  Otherwise the term "police state" is meaningless.

What definition of "police state" defines it in relation to anything else?

[1m1nd]

...snip...

Ah - so calling the US a "police state" is not a meaningful criticism then is it?  Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

It draws attention to the increasing militarisation of the police in the US and the continuing squeeze on civil liberties.

EDIT: it certainly is a valid criticism, when comparing the US of today with the US of say, 20 years ago.

So its not true now but it could become true if you warn people.

Fair enough.  

No, it certainly is true now. You might not have experienced it, but plenty have.

EDIT: pictures of armed police on a street aren't necessarily evidence of a police state. It is however a sight that chills the blood of any who have been on the receiving end of politically motivated police violence.

[myrkul]

Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

Sort of like making a distinction between "rape" and "forcible rape"?

That's a crude way of looking at things.  Do you mean to say its a good analogy in that "Rape" includes consensual sex between 15 year olds while "forcible rape" does not?  So a "state" would be based on consent while a "police state" would not?

I'm not sure what bring rape into that analogy adds to the conversation.

No, I think that the distinction between "Rape" and "Statutory Rape" is a valid one, the latter being rape only because "we said so." "Rape" and "Forcible Rape," however, is a null distinction, since rape, by definition, is sex by force.

[Severian]

You might not have experienced it, but plenty have.

When I got my johnson grabbed by the fake cop at the airport a few years ago was my clue. I'm not sure what it takes for other people to see it.

Needless to say, homie ain't flying as long as the Feds are in charge of the gates at the airports.

[Hawker]

Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

Sort of like making a distinction between "rape" and "forcible rape"?

That's a crude way of looking at things.  Do you mean to say its a good analogy in that "Rape" includes consensual sex between 15 year olds while "forcible rape" does not?  So a "state" would be based on consent while a "police state" would not?

I'm not sure what bring rape into that analogy adds to the conversation.

No, I think that the distinction between "Rape" and "Statutory Rape" is a valid one, the latter being rape only because "we said so." "Rape" and "Forcible Rape," however, is a null distinction, since rape, by definition, is sex by force.

"Statutory Rape"  and "Forcible Rape"  are both covered by the term "Rape."

Can you get back on topic now?  Rape will be illegal in police states just as much as free states so lets not get sidetracked.

[Viceroy]

Ah - so calling the US a "police state" is not a meaningful criticism then is it?  Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

WOOT!  clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap

[Matthew N. Wright]

"Statutory Rape"  and "Forcible Rape"  are both covered by the term "Rape."

They shouldn't be. Statutory rape in one state/city/country is consensual sex in other states/cities/countries. Forcible rape is pretty universal.

[Hawker]

...snip...

Ah - so calling the US a "police state" is not a meaningful criticism then is it?  Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

It draws attention to the increasing militarisation of the police in the US and the continuing squeeze on civil liberties.

EDIT: it certainly is a valid criticism, when comparing the US of today with the US of say, 20 years ago.

So its not true now but it could become true if you warn people.

Fair enough.  

No, it certainly is true now. You might not have experienced it, but plenty have.

EDIT: pictures of armed police on a street aren't necessarily evidence of a police state. It is however a sight that chills the blood of any who have been on the receiving end of politically motivated police violence.

All US police are armed.  And when faced with organised crime, UK police are armed too and they shoot to kill with hollow point bullets.  

I think what you are saying is that you had a bad experience with the police.  That's because you come into contact with them the nature of their work corrupts and many of them will lie through their teeth in court to get you banged up.  However, they do provide a service we need and they are prepared to die providing it.  I can't see why the sight of the armed police going to hunt an armed enemy would upset you.

[Viceroy]

Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

That only works if a police state is defined as "throwing people you like in jail."

While this poster may be illiterate the definition remains:

a political unit characterized by repressive governmental control of political, economic, and social life usually by an arbitrary exercise of power by police and especially secret police in place of regular operation of administrative and judicial organs of the government according to publicly known legal procedures

which does not describe the US in any way.

[Viceroy]

It doesn't matter how he sees it - it actually is a relative issue.  Otherwise the term "police state" is meaningless.

What definition of "police state" defines it in relation to anything else?

a political unit characterized by repressive governmental control of political, economic, and social life usually by an arbitrary exercise of power by police and especially secret police in place of regular operation of administrative and judicial organs of the government according to publicly known legal procedures

[Severian]

However, they do provide a service we need and they are prepared to die providing it.  

I have to disagree. They're willing to kill people and dogs to provide the service.

[Viceroy]

Sort of like making a distinction between "rape" and "forcible rape"?

Comparing the USA to rape is not successful, please try again.  Does not compute.

[myrkul]

Why not just call it a "state" and reserve the term "police state" for places like Syria.

Sort of like making a distinction between "rape" and "forcible rape"?

That's a crude way of looking at things.  Do you mean to say its a good analogy in that "Rape" includes consensual sex between 15 year olds while "forcible rape" does not?  So a "state" would be based on consent while a "police state" would not?

I'm not sure what bring rape into that analogy adds to the conversation.

No, I think that the distinction between "Rape" and "Statutory Rape" is a valid one, the latter being rape only because "we said so." "Rape" and "Forcible Rape," however, is a null distinction, since rape, by definition, is sex by force.

"Statutory Rape"  and "Forcible Rape"  are both covered by the term "Rape."

Can you get back on topic now?  Rape will be illegal in police states just as much as free states so lets not get sidetracked.

The point being, that if we reserve the term "police state" to mean "really bad police state," then we've just accepted that a state, in order to function, must be oppressive.

"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him."

And yes, I'm arguing the minarchist case here. States can exist without being oppressive, though they typically don't long limit themselves that way.

[Hawker]

However, they do provide a service we need and they are prepared to die providing it.  

I have to disagree. They're willing to kill people and dogs to provide the service.

Wasn't there a cop killed in Boston recently?

[Hawker]

...snip...

And yes, I'm arguing the minarchist case here. States can exist without being oppressive, though they typically don't long limit themselves that way.

So the question is, what state is so much more free than the US that you feel justified in calling the US in particular a police state while that state is not?

[1m1nd]

You might not have experienced it, but plenty have.

When I got my johnson grabbed by the fake cop at the airport a few years ago was my clue. I'm not sure what it takes for other people to see it.

Needless to say, homie ain't flying as long as the Feds are in charge of the gates at the airports.

Watching a cop bodily pick up a kid half his size and slam his head into a stone bollard sealed the deal. I vividly remember the sound of his skull cracking against the stone.