Police State?

[myrkul]

You don't need tanks, you don't need military-style camo outfits, you don't need assault rifles.

But the guy had bombs, and assault rifles, so you want to have cops who are not properly trained to handle a very dangerous suspect?

Did I say anything about not training them? No. I believe I said things about not equipping them for going to war on the populace instead of capturing a fugitive. In fact, you quoted what I said. Read it again.

But you need to that type of equipment when someone is at that point, where they don't have any regard for public or law enforcement.

No, you don't. Body armor, maybe. A swat team, once you've found him, if he won't come easy. Not tanks and door-to-door military-style sweeps.

plus you said just have cops looking in sewers and streets.

Did you read anything in my post?

You send him, and a few hundred of his buddies, around and have them, as Matt says, ask to have a look around. If someone doesn't cooperate, you get a warrant.

[computerlamp]

You don't need tanks, you don't need military-style camo outfits, you don't need assault rifles.

But the guy had bombs, and assault rifles, so you want to have cops who are not properly trained to handle a very dangerous suspect?

Did I say anything about not training them? No. I believe I said things about not equipping them for going to war on the populace instead of capturing a fugitive. In fact, you quoted what I said. Read it again.

But you need to that type of equipment when someone is at that point, where they don't have any regard for public or law enforcement. plus you said just have cops looking in sewers and streets.

Look what ended up catching the guy ... a diligent citizen.
 
Does that not prove we don't need tanks and police in military style camo outfits?

Look what tanks and police in military style outfits do ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989#3_and_4_June:_Military_advances_to_Tiananmen_Square (warning link requires reading and learning to grasp what i'm trying to get at I believe you can do it though!)

Of course that could never happen in America though - this is true, but only true as long as people like mykrul and others exist.

If people like mykrul don't exist then it's only a matter of time.

[myrkul]

No, you don't. Body armor, maybe. A swat team, once you've found him, if he won't come easy. Not tanks and door-to-door military-style sweeps.

Ok so body armor isn't being a solider, and what tanks? The SWAT team uses armored vehicles, they don't have tanks, tanks would imply they have weapons on the vehicle and used tracks.

Oh, we're getting pedantic about the definition of "tank," now, are we?

Very well, APC (still a military vehicle, btw).
As for the body armor,

OK:


NOT OK:

[computerlamp]

No, you don't. Body armor, maybe. A swat team, once you've found him, if he won't come easy. Not tanks and door-to-door military-style sweeps.

Ok so body armor isn't being a solider, and what tanks? The SWAT team uses armored vehicles, they don't have tanks, tanks would imply they have weapons on the vehicle and used tracks.

Oh, we're getting pedantic about the definition of "tank," now, are we?

Very well, APC (still a military vehicle, btw).
As for the body armor,

OK:
http://guncrisis.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/chalfont06-copy.jpg

NOT OK:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/a3c48f4c783768c757a2bc1765026e88/tumblr_mliesas9dN1qz581wo1_500.jpg

Those basically are the same just one is camo and one isn't.


Are we really comparing boston manhunt to Tiananmen Square, can we please re-read history and view these as two different things.

I still don't see a problem with this, I know you guys are probably hardcore left wing people and I am not hardcore right or left. I think they were justified Boston people say they were justified, if that is brainwashing then I am brainwashed but I will also defend your right to say what you want to say, and we agree to disagree.

I just want to leave this here...

http://youtu.be/7UZ10Y2LmnE?t=3m47s

If this doesn't make you proud of the police force for doing an amazing job, then you sir, shouldn't be living here, you should live on an island where you make the rules, cause you don't appreciate the freedoms you have, the loyalty to service these people are showing you and you just don't understand.

Personally I'm socially left and fiscally right.

They are two different things but is this not a small step in that direction?

I value my rights so much that I'm upset that they(our loyal police servicemen) are searching peoples houses regardless of their consent.

Do you not value your rights and freedoms? You say you do but it seems you couldn't give less of a fuck about this encroachment on our rights.

It's in the name of safety ... for the children. It always is "eye roll"

[Severian]

the loyalty to service these people are showing you and you just don't understand.

They're doing their jobs. They signed up for it. I don't know why people doing their jobs well should get some kind of special treatment. Recognition for protecting the public from a danger is an understandable reward. But the incessant drumbeat of talking about civilian cops as one would talk about soldiers is a little pathological.

[myrkul]

Those basically are the same just one is camo and one isn't.

No, not really. One is, and looks like, a police uniform. The other is, and looks like, a military uniform. Cops do not need camo.

I still don't see a problem with this, I know you guys are probably hardcore left wing people and I am not hardcore right or left. I think they were justified Boston people say they were justified, if that is brainwashing then I am brainwashed but I will also defend your right to say what you want to say, and we agree to disagree.

Ironically, your comrade in arms, Viceroy, is a hardcore leftie. And he was cheering just as hard as you. At least you've yet to call me names, so that's an improvement. I myself am a hardcore libertarian - that is to say, I'm an anarchist. As such, I may be a little biased against the actions of the State, but even with that bias, I can see that this is clearly going to far, and not how a manhunt in a friendly city should be executed.

I just want to leave this here...

http://youtu.be/7UZ10Y2LmnE?t=3m47s

If this doesn't make you proud of the police force for doing an amazing job, then you sir, shouldn't be living here, you should live on an island where you make the rules, cause you don't appreciate the freedoms you have, the loyalty to service these people are showing you and you just don't understand.

Hey, it's great that they got the guy. It's great that the citizens were happy that they got the guy. But the populace cheering isn't always a good thing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAfW7KA76gQ

[myrkul]

Honestly if you have nothing to hide, what is the big deal. I don't do drugs, I don't do creepy, weird things in my apartment with girls. I mean I am normal so I don't see the big deal in a special situation as this.

Do you close the door when you shit?

I think cops deserve a little bit of a better rap then they been getting. I just have a different experience with that job. Being an officer is the hardest job, especially in 2013, I know I am not going to convert anyone on this forum, but let just say one thing when see a cop if you hate them or whatever, just give him a thumbs up or hello or a thank you, cause you really don't understand how hard that job is and I do.

If they were more like peace officers, and less like law enforcement, they'd get the better treatment they "deserve." But as it is, they're the iron fist of the state, the guys who put people in cages for selling each other dried flowers. Yes, it's a hard job, and it's hard because they're doing some pretty shitty things to people.

Ok the nazi stuff really is bothering me, remember that is the 1920's to 1940's information was easily controlled, and today it is very difficult. I doubt anything like that would happen today in America.

"It can't happen here." Famous last words, there. Here's a better quote:

"Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty."

Are you a cop do you know what they need? Also the camo really sticks out in an urban setting so why are you against them wearing camo? Honestly it is basically the same body armor just one is camo and the other one is blue, so I don't see your point.

That is my point. They don't need camo, it does them no good anyway, so what is it for?

Intimidation. Plain and simple. Same with the black tactical outfits.

[ButchHashidy]

I'm quite familiar with the problem but tell me this:

How would YOU have rooted out the Boston bomber jerkoff?

You run the PD.  Deploy WHO?  HOW?  With WHAT?

You ask people to cooperate in helping them do their job. I would.

Do not force them to. In my childhood in the USA, I had lived in the ghetto for a while. Police were chasing people through our yard on a regular basis (shootings happened like clockwork and gang violence was prevalent). They *always* asked to enter our house (despite our relation to law enforcement). They always notified us of what was going on with assumption that we were not related to the individual and were innocent. Watching the Boston videos it seems that they weren't being professional police, they were being professional soldiers.

If someone declines and you still have grounds to believe that the person you're looking for may be in the house, you ask a judge for a warrant to search and present him with your evidence. At least then there is accountability on the judge, versus not even knowing a cop's badge number as he forces you out of your house. You can sue later and have laws changed when warrants are improperly issued. Not so easy with vague "justified entry" by a single cop whom you don't even know his name and no one will tell you because "shut up, truther".

The point is, if we are supposed to have a law in society, the police need to follow it too, even to our detriment. If something needs to be changed, let it be agreed upon and not forced upon us.

Disclaimer: I've never been to Boston in my life, I don't know what the mood or tolerance to crime is like there. All I know is that if I had sworn to protect people, I'd protect them from myself and my kind as well.

The most sensible post. 

Please don't let police force over stepping their boundaries ever become acceptable behavior.  Too many times in the past, this was the turning point for the worst.  Isn't this what attracts some of us to Bitcoin in the first place?  By using the coin, we remove just a bit more of their foothold.  Let's not forget that .

[Severian]

just say one thing when see a cop if you hate them or whatever, just give him a thumbs up or hello or a thank you, cause you really don't understand how hard that job is and I do.

What's this syrupy stuff? If I see a cop I'm friends with, we wave. If I don't know them, they get treated like the rest of world: polite indifference. There are good cops and there are bad cops. Bad cops can be supreme fuckups that good cops are afraid to say anything about because they don't want to be viewed as snitches, just like prison. Bad cops kill people, destroy the lives of innocents and are general plagues upon society.

The best of cops take out the bad cops as well as the criminals without a badge. We need more of those kinds of cops and less cop worship.

[ButchHashidy]

OP get the fuck out of the US if you think you are so fucking prosecuted.  You have no idea a police state is.  I am sick you and your type.  It's simple.  Leave! 

Damn pampered Americans that whine and bitch have no idea what life is outside their little bubble.  I am an American that has lived all over the world. And still does now and not by choice.  So yes I know of what I speak.

Our rights merit discussion.  I think it was noble for OP to start a debate.  And don't you think those that realize the benefits of our system want to make sure they're maintained?  Rather then eroded one amendment after another?  Our constitutional rights were built up on the history of the fallacy of mankind.  It's our duty, AT THE VERY LEAST, to have debates on our interpretations of current events and their impact on our INALIENABLE rights as we see them.  Why turn a blind eye?  At least we should investigate.

[hawkeye]

I'm wary about wading into this but here is my 2 cents...

The whole problem is America's attitude towards the world at large.  They have built up a huge military, have bases all around the world and are constantly starting wars.  Yes, starting them. 

All this requires training a lot of people to be soldiers.  I understand this is quite an intensive process and many are traumatised by their times in a warzone.  And if they aren't, it means they are most probably psychotic.   Then you get the blowback terrorist attacks on American soil.  Solution?  Ramp up security.  Where to get more police from?  What about all those soldiers returning home that now need jobs?  Result, you get a police force full of soldiers who basically treat the streets of America the same way they treat the streets of Baghdad.

I don't like the police state, but it almost looks like the Amercian populace got what was coming to it, because of it's general complacency towards the growth of the military and implied consent of foreign invasions.  The wheel always turns.

Of course there are so many jobs related to military spending now that politicians can't reduce it. 

Ultimately, America dug it's own grave.   

[ButchHashidy]

I'm wary about wading into this but here is my 2 cents...

The whole problem is America's attitude towards the world at large.  They have built up a huge military, have bases all around the world and are constantly starting wars.  Yes, starting them. 

All this requires training a lot of people to be soldiers.  I understand this is quite an intensive process and many are traumatised by their times in a warzone.  And if they aren't, it means they are most probably psychotic.   Then you get the blowback terrorist attacks on American soil.  Solution?  Ramp up security.  Where to get more police from?  What about all those soldiers returning home that now need jobs?  Result, you get a police force full of soldiers who basically treat the streets of America the same way they treat the streets of Baghdad.

I don't like the police state, but it almost looks like the Amercian populace got what was coming to it, because of it's general complacency towards the growth of the military and implied consent of foreign invasions.  The wheel always turns.

Of course there are so many jobs related to military spending now that politicians can't reduce it. 

Ultimately, America dug it's own grave.   

Propaganda, my friend, is a hell of a drug.  You think the majority of the American people actually understand anything beyond what mainstream media feeds them?  It's a task in and of itself to read between the lines.  The mistake here would be to blame Americans for things they know very little about.  The average American citizen is not the enemy.  Follow the money, and you'll find the culprits.

[Severian]

I used to know an Ice cream man that sold drugs. Executives at wall st, change documents. I mean every line of work has shitty people, shouldn't assume...

How many SWAT team takedowns of innocents do ice cream men and crooked traders engage in every year?

At least the ice cream dude and the trader would go to jail for killing someone "by mistake".

[Severian]

Propaganda, my friend, is a hell of a drug. 

“The objection to propaganda is not only its appeal to unreason, but still more the unfair advantage which it gives to the rich and powerful.”

― Bertrand Russell

[hawkeye]

Propaganda, my friend, is a hell of a drug.  You think the majority of the American people actually understand anything beyond what mainstream media feeds them?  It's a task in and of itself to read between the lines.  The mistake here would be to blame Americans for things they know very little about.  The average American citizen is not the enemy.  Follow the money, and you'll find the culprits.

I never fell prey to the propaganda.  I've never been a nationalist, never worn a flag, owned one, etc...

I may not have known the truth, and used to find thinking hard, but I always knew when I was being lied to, even if I didn't know exactly what the truth was.  I don't have a lot of sympathy for the above view.  Do Americans not know that people die in wars?

How many people know but don't care because that is the way they make a living because they have a job at a military contractor?   They want the propaganda so they don't have to face the truth.  Supply and demand.   Media supplies what the people demand.   

[1m1nd]

I know you guys are probably hardcore left wing people and I am not hardcore right or left.

Left and right wing are limited descriptors.

Middle ground politics is still taking a hardcore position. The political middle ground in the US for example is more "right wing" both economically and socially than in western Europe. What about the political middle ground in North Korea?

I just want to leave this here...

http://youtu.be/7UZ10Y2LmnE?t=3m47s

If this doesn't make you proud of the police force for doing an amazing job, then you sir, shouldn't be living here, you should live on an island where you make the rules, cause you don't appreciate the freedoms you have, the loyalty to service these people are showing you and you just don't understand.

Wow, a cheering crowd! I want to be a part of it!!! But i'll be in the middle, so as not to take a hardcore left or right wing position!!

[1m1nd]

Ok the nazi stuff really is bothering me, remember that is the 1920's to 1940's information was easily controlled, and today it is very difficult. I doubt anything like that would happen today in America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIqJPLw5K20

[Anon136]

I actually was going to be a cop at some point in my life, and I ended up falling in love with computers so now I am here, but I guess I just have a different view on that job. I think cops deserve a little bit of a better rap then they been getting. I just have a different experience with that job. Being an officer is the hardest job, especially in 2013, I know I am not going to convert anyone on this forum, but let just say one thing when see a cop if you hate them or whatever, just give him a thumbs up or hello or a thank you, cause you really don't understand how hard that job is and I do.

gweedo, if a person does both good and bad things. Lets say he is a rapist but works really hard and gives lots of money to charity. Does this excuse him of his crimes? does this make his crimes not crimes?

part of a cops job is to kidnap innocent people against their wills in order that they be locked away in a rape dungeon for the rest of their lives because they happened tohave the wrong type of leaf in their pockets. This is what cops facilitate when they engage in the armed kidnapping of innocent drug users. People who have harmed no one but themselves, which is their right since they own themselves.

Do they also do good things? sure of course they do. But does this make their crimes ok? hell no. Does that make them not criminals? hell no.

[Hawker]

I actually was going to be a cop at some point in my life, and I ended up falling in love with computers so now I am here, but I guess I just have a different view on that job. I think cops deserve a little bit of a better rap then they been getting. I just have a different experience with that job. Being an officer is the hardest job, especially in 2013, I know I am not going to convert anyone on this forum, but let just say one thing when see a cop if you hate them or whatever, just give him a thumbs up or hello or a thank you, cause you really don't understand how hard that job is and I do.

gweedo, if a person does both good and bad things. Lets say he is a rapist but works really hard and gives lots of money to charity. Does this excuse him of his crimes? does this make his crimes not crimes?

part of a cops job is to kidnap innocent people against their wills in order that they be locked away in a rape dungeon for the rest of their lives because they happened tohave the wrong type of leaf in their pockets. This is what cops facilitate when they engage in the armed kidnapping of innocent drug users. People who have harmed no one but themselves, which is their right since they own themselves.

Do they also do good things? sure of course they do. But does this make their crimes ok? hell no. Does that make them not criminals? hell no.

Drug laws are not down to the police.  Its down to your own people voting for them.  In London, the police actively lobbied to be allowed to stop harassing pot smokers.  The politicians slapped them down and at the moment police are only half-heartedly enforcing a law they regard as stupid.  The senior policeman involved resigned and ran for mayor.

http://www.brianpaddick.com/ - sadly he lost.

Don't blame the police for the decisions of the voters.

[myrkul]

Don't blame the police for the decisions of the voters.

Hey, guess what? Just like the individual soldier given a bad order, an individual cop can refuse to enforce a bad law. Cops don't get to say they were "just following orders" either.