CryptoKingdom Uncensored

[bv68bot]

Just a suggestion, e1 and b1 debts from time when rpietilia was crazy, but if you want to honor them just create junk bonds and let them trade.

You're spot on, Risto was very likely suffering from an episode of mental illness when he created the e1 peg which led to the depo share run and debts, if he ever recovers his sanity he could rightly take legal action to absolve him from those debts on the basis that he was not mentally fit when he made those decisions. That's a good argument in favor of forking the Game though, and leaving those issues with CK legacy. If those debts are later found to be invalid it would create a hornets nest of problems paying bond holders for debts that don't exist, also, would the SEC be interested in these 'securities' ... best to leave these issues for Risto and his creditors.

[1714122600]

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[Syksy]

Hello all,

without having a particular strong opinion for or against any of the financial statements above, I'd like to pitch-in from a programming-/gamedev-level perspective on what route the game could go on - especially if it's made into a separate entity. This was just a basic oversight of concepts that I think ought to function as central nodes. Apologies that it's been ages since I did proper UML-charts or such, but I think those with programming experience can see the underlying overview (while it still is quite simple to grasp due to only modeling few of the key concepts):



A little bit about the classes:

The world map would be best suited according to my own opinion as a hexagonal grid on multiple levels; world-map level (most commonly used game style), local/city-level (kind of what you'd see in a jRPG or in old-school turn-based hex games like Panzer General or such), and then zoomed in -level (most vanity-level, mostly decorations, furniture, characters/pseudocharacters modeled).

The main division on character level would be to PCs (Player Characters) and NPCs (AI-driven player characters). Basically these combined create the base for supply and demand, while NPCs are much more abundant than PCs naturally. Still they'd belong to a family (="Guild") as well as a Faction of a sort (higher level than family, e.g. a nation; some time in future idealistically strong enough PCs and/or alliance of PC Families could create their own faction (=nation) and create their own set of rules such as who gets to pass, what road / sales tax they determine, etc etc.

The specific implementation of NPCs is a challenging one. I'd like to base them on a semi-individual level simulations, though what I was experimenting with cell automatons I don't think there could be easy way to incorporate those. As such, I'm leaning toward e.g. a random-walker based simulation per week (or distributed among a week = one year), to determine hotspots for markets, how long distances NPCs need to travel to aquire/buy food, whether they are close to a potential work place (such as a brewery, factory, farm, whatever...). Furthermore, instead of past implementations, NPCs would also require housing, thus rent/sold houses nearby hotspots of a certain kind also attract NPC renters/even potential buyers.

Events are quite vaguely defined, but they'd be the main form of actions taking place in the whole game world.

I know this is a very broad oversight and potentially unusable as it is, but I thought it'd be time for somebody to put something concrete in regards to how the gameplay emerges from the underlying mechanics. Feel free to give comments on what you think of it.

[boomboom]

If gringotts takes over from Coinshop as primary market maker it makes the game much more decentralised, previously with risto in control of so many things there was a lot of unavoidable perception of possible conflicts of interest, but now that's gone, and CK has a sizable war chest for development and promotion, awesome!

While I agree that Gringotts market making activities will help CK become less centralized, I should mention that we don't see Gringotts ever taking over from Coinshop functions.

Market making is something every player can do, and it's one of the basic strategies players can use to make money in the game, including Game accounts controlled by admins.

Gringotts will be happy to see a Game controlled Coinshop active in Agora again when play resumes, hopefully there will be too many markets for one single entity to provide liquidity for.

[CrazyLoaf]

KH might not come back himself anytime soon, but I invested in Gringotts last year at Karl's invitation, and I'm managing the Gringotts market making account that has the ~460 bil 'M', and the remaining 'Phoenix Trust' shares which Karl setup in 2017 to assetize his large property portfolio.

Gringotts account is below
https://cryptokingdom.me/player/playerItems/1963

PhoenixTrust had a manager (hopefully still active), and PhoenixTrust assets are trading on Agora, so those real estate assets are still in play.

afaik he put all his remaining collectible items like coins in a FOC managed by Roopatra, and they also had a joint venture partnership in UnicornCorp which I don't know much about, other than it exists since the beginning of the Game almost.

So KH's economic footprint is still 100% active.

Okay, awesome to hear that someone is still in touch with Karl Hungus! Just to be clear, by the talk of "economic arguments" it wasn't that we planned on taking over Karl's items/accounts at all.

It was more in line with the fact that some people said one reason to keep Risto's items just "there" is that it would work as a way to reduce supply and increase market cap (sort of like Satoshi's 1 million Bitcoins).

In response to that, Satoshi only owns 4.75% of the supply cap of Bitcoin. Also, if you factor in lost or inaccessible Bitcoins (lost via boating accidents perhaps), that is maybe another 15%-20% lost of the total supply.

So for one we are talking about a lot smaller portion "lost" in Bitcoin and we can't ignore the fact that Bitcoin has pretty much had a use case since the 10k BTC pizza days. CK has had a very minor use case and, looking at the game changelog for the past year, essentially zero use-case during its most recent history. 50% just sitting there won't cut it.  

Still, even if Karl's land, currency, and items are fully active, that doesn't mean the 50% of player accounts that aren't Risto-related will suddenly come online all at once. Going down the M "rich list," we see plenty of 0.5% - 3.0% supply cap owners that have not been seen for a very long time. So surely 10% - 20% of all currency and items in the game could just "remain" there until accessed by owners (if at all), reducing the supply float.

CK is like a DAO where the game is owned by the players, Loaf is correct, nobody will invest new funds into a venture with this level of debt

what CK needs most to recover is a critical mass of active players, so the choice is between:

1- a fresh start, start by auctioning off game currency like gold or M as Risto did originally in 2014 to get dev funds i.e an ICO

2- write off the existing debts and fork the DB, use Risto's accounts as dev funds

Neither is a good option, 1- writes off everyone's in-game wealth, but 2- writes off only those owed b1 and e1 by Risto and some proxy accounts that might be his friends.

Part of the value we see for CK is that it did have a fair-ish distribution pattern over its lifetime (until it was heavily skewed back to Risto during the depo business).

It also is obvious that CK has one hell of a "proof of burn" valuation model. Just thinking of a few larger investors, easily 150k XMR was "lost" or "used" (depends on perspective) in the game, so around $50 million. And the total amounts could be far higher.

Finally, the original CK thread is still the 2nd most viewed thread of all time in "altcoin discussion" on BTCTalk. And it's been closed for posts for almost a year! From the names of the properties in CK to the posts on the threads, it is certainly part of the history of XMR in particular and crypto in general.

Why not issue b1 & e1 debt tokens in the CK DB, let them trade @ junk bond and distressed asset prices for a few years, so the bold & brave can buy from current creditors for later profit.

Set a clause that should CK marketcap reach some hugely success level of 1 Billion USD, then CK treasury account pays out the b1 & e1 bonds @ face value as at the date the debts were incurred.

Setup option to use Karpeles Mt Gox accounting trick to pay out fiat value of debt at a time when crypto prices including M could be very high.

Just a suggestion, e1 and b1 debts from time when rpietilia was crazy, but if you want to honor them just create junk bonds and let them trade.

This was considered (the token part, not the "trick" part). But while this worked for something like Bitfinex, we don't think it is prudent to utilize here. For one, Bitfinex only lost a small portion of total assets and was able to "recover" those lost funds over time as people still traded there. Close to no one is using CK.

And even in light of some of the insane valuations out there on crypto projects, we think there is a long way to go from where we are ($0) to say where PepeCash was during the recent BTC surge ($100 million). We think more than raw market cap, actual in-game transactional volume is a better barometer of activity of anyway. We'd all prefer a game that has a $10 mil market cap and $1 mil in daily game volume than a $100 mil market cap and $100k in daily volume.

Back on the topic of the B1 and E1 debts, if you look at the Google Doc linked in smooth's "CK scam" thread, you'll see that there are only about 20-25 or so unique people on the lists, and there is a lot of overlap between the two lists. This doesn't compare to Bitfinex at all where EVERY user took a haircut and then received the BFX tokens. Overall, Risto's B1 and E1 depos is a really unnecessary can of worms to open (I mean what about M2 as well, I have a ton of those ), and the fairest solution is to try to grow the game's purpose and value for everyone still around, rather than a select few (and I am saying this as someone owed millions from the Risto's depos - so shooting myself in the foot here).

If those debts are later found to be invalid it would create a hornets nest of problems paying bond holders for debts that don't exist, also, would the SEC be interested in these 'securities' ... best to leave these issues for Risto and his creditors.

Didn't really want to mention this, but since you brought it up: if someone really wanted to get technical, anyone paid via Risto's depos could have their funds "clawed back" (as the assets that remain have to be shared among all users affected). So take out 50 BTC and have Risto accidentally send you another 50 BTC and he let you keep it? (And -- yes -- for those not aware, this really happened!) That technically needs to go back to the Risto settlement pot :/

If gringotts takes over from Coinshop as primary market maker it makes the game much more decentralized, previously with risto in control of so many things there was a lot of unavoidable perception of possible conflicts of interest, but now that's gone, and CK has a sizable war chest for development and promotion, awesome!

Will there be any airdrops?

Gringotts will continue to be its own entity. Coinshop used to do most of the market making in the game. But Risto cleared out a large amount of the assets and items. For what remains, they will be used to help grow and enhance the game. This will include market making (of not just Coinshop, but the other game and Risto-related accounts).

Airdrops and "giveaways" will be a big part of the initial push on CK, possibly in combination with a game currency purchase opportunity. We discussed in earlier posts a push to 1 quadrillion (1,000,000,000,000,000) in-game currency (don't worry: your % ownership will remain the same, as it will scale). We could airdrop 1 billion in-game currency units to each user across 100k users and still have plenty left over to grow the game further.

I know this is a very broad oversight and potentially unusable as it is, but I thought it'd be time for somebody to put something concrete in regards to how the gameplay emerges from the underlying mechanics. Feel free to give comments on what you think of it.

Ending thought: Syksy is awesome!

[Gaben.]

Updates Regarding Crypto Kingdom

HIGH!

Building Codebase from Scratch

First off, the developers will be building a game/codebase framework from scratch for CK. The current CK codebase does one thing alright -- the market order system -- but the rest isn't developed or documented at all. As we want to allow player modability, the current codebase just doesn't cut it.  

Developers are considering Django (as it utilizes Python, which a lot of crypto-interacticing codebases use). Development will be made with open source design in mind. The frontend will be open source and the database will use a public/private key setup so it could be be public as well, and hopefully living inside of a blockchain. The backend will be REST API.

Treating Project as Fork; Game Takeover of Risto-Related Assets

The game was paused by Risto in 2016. All the depository chaos was in 2017. We got PJ off the codebase here at the start of 2018. That's almost 2 years of pretty much zero activity on a game where the majority of the depth/action happened from its founding in 2014 to around mid 2015 before it was moved over to the "Ultima" version. Once "Ultima" hit, the scale/scope of the game was majorly narrowed, and we never saw the same level of depth as was present in the spreadsheet version of the game. So that is 2 years with nothing going on really and 1 to 1.5 years of sucky gameplay.

The crypto ecosystem has changed a lot since 2014, and we think several things need to happen for CK to have a chance in the current environment. One issue the game has had since 2017 is Risto's depository nonsense. We have PM'ed with Risto some recently, and others have talked with him in person, and it is pretty clear that he has no interest in returning to CK.

CK had a core group of players on IRC near the end of the "Ultima" days, but even before that, there were many more players who also put money into the game. We are still surprised when talking casually with other crypto types and hearing them mention putting 100, 500, or even 1,000 XMR into the game in 2014/2015. Even a mere 100 XMR is more than $30k in the current market environment! We want these casual types to return to the game. And of course, we have major players like Karl Hungus who put 30,000+ XMR ($9 MILLION PLUS! ) into the game, but who weren't around during the depository madness in 2017.

Overall, the game needs a pathway to growth, which means promotions/marketing to new users, bounties for development efforts, etc. Therefore, what we are going to do is treat this new CK project as a "fork" if you will, meaning that the project/game will be taking over Risto-related accounts and will not be dealing with any of those upaid depository transactions that Risto incurred.

Aside from the fact that the depository withdrawal values are now at laughably high fiat levels due to the recent x10 surge in crypto prices, only about 20 unique users were present and overlapped on the unpaid withdrawal spreadsheets (both B1 and E1). Additionally, many of these same users also still have a sizable amount invested in the game in terms of land, items, and in-game currency, and we hope that revitalizing the game will bring value back to these assets.

To add, there is also the issue of verifying claims, as many did not even include themselves on the spreadsheet (myself included, and I am owed millions of dollars from Risto personally). Just to use one person to illustrate this depository insanity: does it really make sense for the game to compensate a user like "HannaMaaria" 35.8 BTC (so $350k at current values) and 53,500 Euros when she did absolutely nothing for the game and only sang at Risto's embassy for a few hours?

Only looking at major accounts, here is what we are thinking:

https://i.imgur.com/vLrjeKU.jpg

Accounts in yellow will be taken over in full by the game. These are either Risto-related accounts or were already game accounts.

Accounts in green are corporations that we believe Risto controlled. In-game currency held by these accounts will be distributed to current shareholders. Then they will just act as holding companies unless a game-specific purpose is created for them later. We are thinking, for example, of NewCorp functioning similar to "Phoenix Trust" as it holds a lot of land/property.

Accounts in orange we are unsure on. If there are any claims to these, let us know. "FuriBliz" in particular looks very suspect.

In any event, this will give the game room to grow without changing relative ownership percentages of in-game currency and items for any other users.

I appreciate the consideration to keep it open source. I agree that Ultima was probably one of the largest bottlenecks in trying to play the game. It became all about buying and selling as the entire game for newer players, while when I was watching during the spreadsheet days it seemed much more open ended.

There were parts of Ultima that were still managed through the spreadsheet, like the army encounters and tournament, and they seemed to be the most engaging parts, the story side of the market matching software that wasn't really incorporated into the website. The casino was cool too, and I think that was the direction that was being pursued - one where people would ultimately deliver their own websites that would provide the game utility to the end user, and the main focus of CK itself was just the order matching software.

In hindsight, maybe the focus should have been trying to put out a turnkey game with all modules centrally managed. Sure it's a proven business model and it seems to be the direction this is just beginning to be headed in now .. but that business model often relies on closed source executables in order to maintain the value.

There was a lot of people who put money into the game, I know I was upwards of 6k xmr. Of course saying that now has a lot more impact then saying it when it was less than three dollars or so. All in all I'm way up overall and I can't necessarily hold people accountable for capital gains in fiat on something that I traded hoping for something with a sub 1% chance to happen.

I think risto knew that as I suspect one of the motives of his repeated attempts to get people to go hang out with him at the end was that if in fact nobody really came when they thought they were having fun and possibly millionaires, they probably ain't gonna do much of shit if it went the other way ( it did). We just made a thread about it and carried on with life.

Also, doing some research about haanamaaria would reveal there there was a much longer engagement than a night of singing going on, so I'm not sure what that examples supposed to prove?

Overall I agree that a fork is the only path forward for this. Maybe we should take account of the percentage of the risto controlled accounts amount compared to the rest of the assets in the game? Any good numbers exist on this yet? Either way - maybe an auction of some sort with like 95% of the proceeds going proportionally to the old players that are on the sheet as being owed and 5% going to the new development is a reasonable idea, so long as the past generosity of the players is remembered knowing that with most of these people all you really need is a good idea and the balls to ask for a few dollars to get something off the ground.

[boomboom]

KH might not come back himself anytime soon, but I invested in Gringotts last year at Karl's invitation, and I'm managing the Gringotts market making account that has the ~460 bil 'M', and the remaining 'Phoenix Trust' shares which Karl setup in 2017 to assetize his large property portfolio.

Gringotts account is below
https://cryptokingdom.me/player/playerItems/1963

PhoenixTrust had a manager (hopefully still active), and PhoenixTrust assets are trading on Agora, so those real estate assets are still in play.

afaik he put all his remaining collectible items like coins in a FOC managed by Roopatra, and they also had a joint venture partnership in UnicornCorp which I don't know much about, other than it exists since the beginning of the Game almost.

So KH's economic footprint is still 100% active.

Okay, awesome to hear that someone is still in touch with Karl Hungus! Just to be clear, by the talk of "economic arguments" it wasn't that we planned on taking over Karl's items/accounts at all.

It was more in line with the fact that some people said one reason to keep Risto's items just "there" is that it would work as a way to reduce supply and increase market cap (sort of like Satoshi's 1 million Bitcoins).

In response to that, Satoshi only owns 4.75% of the supply cap of Bitcoin. Also, if you factor in lost or inaccessible Bitcoins (lost via boating accidents perhaps), that is maybe another 15%-20% lost of the total supply.

So for one we are talking about a lot smaller portion "lost" in Bitcoin and we can't ignore the fact that Bitcoin has pretty much had a use case since the 10k BTC pizza days. CK has had a very minor use case and, looking at the game changelog for the past year, essentially zero use-case during its most recent history. 50% just sitting there won't cut it.  

Still, even if Karl's land, currency, and items are fully active, that doesn't mean the 50% of player accounts that aren't Risto-related will suddenly come online all at once. Going down the M "rich list," we see plenty of 0.5% - 3.0% supply cap owners that have not been seen for a very long time. So surely 10% - 20% of all currency and items in the game could just "remain" there until accessed by owners (if at all), reducing the supply float.

No worries, I didn't ever think anyone wanted to take over Karl's accounts (or anyone elses either), but KH was aware of the issue you mention, of having so many game assets and accounts 'inactive', and that's why he wanted to consolidate and simplify his accounts the way he did.

There are a couple of reasons why I think this issue will resolve itself over time though.

Firstly, negative M balances pay interest, and if you check the changelog you can see lots of accounts are currently being slowly eaten away by this 'inactivity tax', and this has been part of the Game rules for a while now, and it's a good mechanism to reduce the negative effects of inactive accounts over time, plus it adds realism to game play.

Secondly, once building payouts and taxes resume, those inactive property holders asleep at the wheel, or those with insufficient M to keep up with maintenance etc will quickly find their estate losses draining their M balances, and once they hit negative balances they'll rapidly enter an account death spiral of mounting property losses & increasing negative balance interest. Eventually when they can't pay their taxes the Game can seize their assets and auction them off to pay their debts, which again, adds realism to game play.

In the CK world HODL will only work for collectibles like coins, and M, and non-perishable items like weapons, other assets like real estate, consumables, NPC's etc will probably offer better returns, but only for active players who 'play' well, and that's what we want to attract new players, opportunities for skillful players to make money.

[Gaben.]

Updates Regarding Crypto Kingdom

HIGH!

Building Codebase from Scratch

First off, the developers will be building a game/codebase framework from scratch for CK. The current CK codebase does one thing alright -- the market order system -- but the rest isn't developed or documented at all. As we want to allow player modability, the current codebase just doesn't cut it.  

Developers are considering Django (as it utilizes Python, which a lot of crypto-interacticing codebases use). Development will be made with open source design in mind. The frontend will be open source and the database will use a public/private key setup so it could be be public as well, and hopefully living inside of a blockchain. The backend will be REST API.

Treating Project as Fork; Game Takeover of Risto-Related Assets

The game was paused by Risto in 2016. All the depository chaos was in 2017. We got PJ off the codebase here at the start of 2018. That's almost 2 years of pretty much zero activity on a game where the majority of the depth/action happened from its founding in 2014 to around mid 2015 before it was moved over to the "Ultima" version. Once "Ultima" hit, the scale/scope of the game was majorly narrowed, and we never saw the same level of depth as was present in the spreadsheet version of the game. So that is 2 years with nothing going on really and 1 to 1.5 years of sucky gameplay.

The crypto ecosystem has changed a lot since 2014, and we think several things need to happen for CK to have a chance in the current environment. One issue the game has had since 2017 is Risto's depository nonsense. We have PM'ed with Risto some recently, and others have talked with him in person, and it is pretty clear that he has no interest in returning to CK.

CK had a core group of players on IRC near the end of the "Ultima" days, but even before that, there were many more players who also put money into the game. We are still surprised when talking casually with other crypto types and hearing them mention putting 100, 500, or even 1,000 XMR into the game in 2014/2015. Even a mere 100 XMR is more than $30k in the current market environment! We want these casual types to return to the game. And of course, we have major players like Karl Hungus who put 30,000+ XMR ($9 MILLION PLUS! ) into the game, but who weren't around during the depository madness in 2017.

Overall, the game needs a pathway to growth, which means promotions/marketing to new users, bounties for development efforts, etc. Therefore, what we are going to do is treat this new CK project as a "fork" if you will, meaning that the project/game will be taking over Risto-related accounts and will not be dealing with any of those upaid depository transactions that Risto incurred.

Aside from the fact that the depository withdrawal values are now at laughably high fiat levels due to the recent x10 surge in crypto prices, only about 20 unique users were present and overlapped on the unpaid withdrawal spreadsheets (both B1 and E1). Additionally, many of these same users also still have a sizable amount invested in the game in terms of land, items, and in-game currency, and we hope that revitalizing the game will bring value back to these assets.

To add, there is also the issue of verifying claims, as many did not even include themselves on the spreadsheet (myself included, and I am owed millions of dollars from Risto personally). Just to use one person to illustrate this depository insanity: does it really make sense for the game to compensate a user like "HannaMaaria" 35.8 BTC (so $350k at current values) and 53,500 Euros when she did absolutely nothing for the game and only sang at Risto's embassy for a few hours?

Only looking at major accounts, here is what we are thinking:

https://i.imgur.com/vLrjeKU.jpg

Accounts in yellow will be taken over in full by the game. These are either Risto-related accounts or were already game accounts.

Accounts in green are corporations that we believe Risto controlled. In-game currency held by these accounts will be distributed to current shareholders. Then they will just act as holding companies unless a game-specific purpose is created for them later. We are thinking, for example, of NewCorp functioning similar to "Phoenix Trust" as it holds a lot of land/property.

Accounts in orange we are unsure on. If there are any claims to these, let us know. "FuriBliz" in particular looks very suspect.

In any event, this will give the game room to grow without changing relative ownership percentages of in-game currency and items for any other users.

I appreciate the consideration to keep it open source. I agree that Ultima was probably one of the largest bottlenecks in trying to play the game. It became all about buying and selling as the entire game for newer players, while when I was watching during the spreadsheet days it seemed much more open ended.

There were parts of Ultima that were still managed through the spreadsheet, like the army encounters and tournament, and they seemed to be the most engaging parts, the story side of the market matching software that wasn't really incorporated into the website. The casino was cool too, and I think that was the direction that was being pursued - one where people would ultimately deliver their own websites that would provide the game utility to the end user, and the main focus of CK itself was just the order matching software.

In hindsight, maybe the focus should have been trying to put out a turnkey game with all modules centrally managed. Sure it's a proven business model and it seems to be the direction this is just beginning to be headed in now .. but that business model often relies on closed source executables in order to maintain the value.

There was a lot of people who put money into the game, I know I was upwards of 6k xmr. Of course saying that now has a lot more impact then saying it when it was less than three dollars or so. All in all I'm way up overall and I can't necessarily hold people accountable for capital gains in fiat on something that I traded hoping for something with a sub 1% chance to happen.

I think risto knew that as I suspect one of the motives of his repeated attempts to get people to go hang out with him at the end was that if in fact nobody really came when they thought they were having fun and possibly millionaires, they probably ain't gonna do much of shit if it went the other way ( it did). We just made a thread about it and carried on with life.

Also, doing some research about haanamaaria would reveal there there was a much longer engagement than a night of singing going on, so I'm not sure what that examples supposed to prove?

Overall I agree that a fork is the only path forward for this. Maybe we should take account of the percentage of the risto controlled accounts amount compared to the rest of the assets in the game? Any good numbers exist on this yet? Either way - maybe an auction of some sort with like 95% of the proceeds going proportionally to the old players that are on the sheet as being owed and 5% going to the new development is a reasonable idea, so long as the past generosity of the players is remembered knowing that with most of these people all you really need is a good idea and the balls to ask for a few dollars to get something off the ground.

Also, have we rehashed any discussions about how this in game currency isn't a security yet? Because as long as there is an expectation of profits, it would seem like a security is being distributed and traded internally.

Right now of course there isn't even any crypto involved, so meh I guess it wouldn't apply to how cryptocurrencies are securities. But if the intention is to create a crypto issued on a smart contract then it's basically a security, aka ICO and nothing was technically burned.

If you fork some kind of dpos system and call it a utility token, then distribute it, it's still technically a security.

So long as this remains a private ledger system you probably aren't going to have long term potential sec or whatever the governing body is of your country poking around and all matters can be settled civilly. But as soon as a distribution based on crypto occurs, many things change.

Just wanted to make that very clear.

[iluvbitcoins]

Overall I agree that a fork is the only path forward for this. Maybe we should take account of the percentage of the risto controlled accounts amount compared to the rest of the assets in the game? Any good numbers exist on this yet? Either way - maybe an auction of some sort with like 95% of the proceeds going proportionally to the old players that are on the sheet as being owed and 5% going to the new development is a reasonable idea, so long as the past generosity of the players is remembered knowing that with most of these people all you really need is a good idea and the balls to ask for a few dollars to get something off the ground.

I agree with this.

As others stated, no one is going to invest in a game with a 10 million $ debt, but if Ristos assets are distributed to debt holders, the debt is abolished.
The game has no debt.
Risto and his chars do.

Again, it makes zero sense to give the singer at the embassy -- burnt down due to an unattended candle left next to tens of millions of dollars of paper wallets (without any backups, ofc x3) for kindling -- over $400k as a result of the depo stuff. We saw one player who was barely active on the forums, isn't signed into IRC, etc. who has 115.5 BTC on that spreadsheet. So just casually give one person over a million dollars and another $400k? Then the game is out around a million and a half bucks and still doesn't have a game

The game doesn't pay anything, Risto does.

And if the chars are inactive, better for us, it means it's more scarce and therefore more valuable.

If Risto's stuff was locked and current players weren't diluted, then where do the new players (which the game desperately needs as #2 on its master plan, behind #1 - an actual game!) squeeze into?

In the game, with other players.
Supply&demand.

Finally, to address any economic arguments that have been mentioned in the past, if we relaunch CK and try to give all old players their in-game currency, land, etc., there is still going to be a huge chunk (20%-30%, possibly more) that probably won't even bother accessing their accounts. For example, we have Hugh Mungus Karl Hungus with 10% of in-game currency, a ton of land, over 30k XMR invested in the game, and he was last seen Feb. 2018 and last posted Sept. 2017.

Nice

[CrazyLoaf]

I appreciate the consideration to keep it open source. I agree that Ultima was probably one of the largest bottlenecks in trying to play the game. It became all about buying and selling as the entire game for newer players, while when I was watching during the spreadsheet days it seemed much more open ended.

Agreed. As anyone who has ever had admin access in CK can attest to, it was very disheartening to see that there was no "gamemaster" console or anything like that For example, probably the most developed module was the "health game," and all that was was a single admin page where the values were changed manually on a per item basis. Even for something like that, some degree of automation should be possible.  

Also, doing some research about haanamaaria would reveal there there was a much longer engagement than a night of singing going on, so I'm not sure what that examples supposed to prove?

On the Google Doc spreadsheets, across both E1 and B1 she has about $400k in depo payments. I was in CK 2016 onward and read most of the thread posts before then before buying into the game and never saw mention of her.

Risto may have mentioned that she gave him money to "invest" in the game (recall, also, that he pretty much said this about everyone "new" around the 2017 days). Again, if Risto was the proxy for all these people, they need to take up any issues with him.

Anyway, just using her as an example of someone who was not in CK that long (if at all) and would be a net outflow of funds that would do nothing to help grow the game. I am sure we could all agree that there are many others users who contributed more to CK that didn't get anything out of the depos at all and are not on those lists.

Overall I agree that a fork is the only path forward for this. Maybe we should take account of the percentage of the Risto controlled accounts amount compared to the rest of the assets in the game? Any good numbers exist on this yet? Either way - maybe an auction of some sort with like 95% of the proceeds going proportionally to the old players that are on the sheet as being owed and 5% going to the new development is a reasonable idea, so long as the past generosity of the players is remembered knowing that with most of these people all you really need is a good idea and the balls to ask for a few dollars to get something off the ground.

Risto-related accounts are around 50% of in-game currency (just going to call this M from now on to save typing). Again, we will not be recognizing the depo-related items. That is only for about 20-25 unique people, and there are far more that lost big in XMR and/or opportunity costs terms who are not on that list. Many of those same users are (or were at one time) major holders of M and game items. If they sold for pennies on the dollar post Risto exit, that was their choice.

Firstly, negative M balances pay interest, and if you check the changelog you can see lots of accounts are currently being slowly eaten away by this 'inactivity tax', and this has been part of the Game rules for a while now, and it's a good mechanism to reduce the negative effects of inactive accounts over time, plus it adds realism to game play.

On the new Agora, negative balances won't be allowed; at least as has been done in the past with CK (as mainly, it was a way for hackers to abuse the system).

However, yes an "inactivity tax" may be imposed (partly to see which accounts are inactive). Currently, we are considering a "Player House" and "Investment House" breakdown.  An Investment House would not have health, NPCs, and if it had property, it may only be able to engage in one pool (say rents) versus some of the higher activity ones (shops, lab, office, etc.).

Also, have we rehashed any discussions about how this in game currency isn't a security yet? Because as long as there is an expectation of profits, it would seem like a security is being distributed and traded internally.

We are talking solely about in-game currency M. M will not have quasi-stock properties (like dividends). There may be things like voting power/delegation and the like, but we will leave these open for now based on pending game design considerations.

And if the chars are inactive, better for us, it means it's more scarce and therefore more valuable.

There is a balance for this. As Gaben and I outlined above, many players beyond Risto accounts will probably be inactive (at say 10%-20% of total M supply cap). That is reasonable. But adding Risto's 50% of the game makes the distribution look terrible.

I know you are on the E1 and B1 depo sheets, but you and everyone else will be far better served by the game just progressing/developing than worrying about those amounts (which were made when Risto was in a poor mental state, so would a reasonable person looking on this scenario in hindsight even allow full recovery of those amounts anyway?).

Also, this very topic (Risto depos) made it where pretty much nothing happened during all of 2017 after Risto left. The current team now has the domain, source code, and complete database of the game. Some lines have to be drawn in the sand to move forward, and the removal of all this depo stuff is one of them.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1905349.msg32269427#msg32269427

Everyone - please offer thoughts on game design in particular. Syksy has done a great job starting the discussion.    

[player99]

Are Speed and the King in on this fork or are they planning/making another version of CK? Or are they out of the game completely?

[iluvbitcoins]

and there are far more that lost big in XMR and/or opportunity costs terms who are not on that list

But that was made with their own choices not for them being scammed
All of us invested XMR/BTC, was there an option to deposit something else to play the game?
I deposited around 2000 XMR at the time

I spent 200 XMR to purchase CKG just before the game was unpaused

There is a balance for this. As Gaben and I outlined above, many players beyond Risto accounts will probably be inactive (at say 10%-20% of total M supply cap). That is reasonable. But adding Risto's 50% of the game makes the distribution look terrible.

I know you are on the E1 and B1 depo sheets, but you and everyone else will be far better served by the game just progressing/developing than worrying about those amounts (which were made when Risto was in a poor mental state, so would a reasonable person looking on this scenario in hindsight even allow full recovery of those amounts anyway?).

Also, this very topic (Risto depos) made it where pretty much nothing happened during all of 2017 after Risto left. The current team now has the domain, source code, and complete database of the game. Some lines have to be drawn in the sand to move forward, and the removal of all this depo stuff is one of them.

But Risto wouldn't keep 50% if it was distributed to 30 people on the sheets
He wouldn't keep any of it actually xD
People he scammed would
It doesn't matter his mental state was poor, people made losses with this, there are people who deposited new crypto to the game just to buy B1, and they were scammed
Does it matter what his state was?
He made contracts with individuals which weren't respected.

If Ristos items are going to be taken away without refunding the creditors, the game should at least be forked from a date prior to the depo scam.

Remember the XMR I used to buy CKG? I sold all my CKG to buy B1.
I have no XMR, no CKG and no BTC.
Fork prior to the depo scam or refund the debt holders from Zechariach.
At least use other chars for the good of the game, but use at least Zechariach to repay his debts.
I believe that would be a fair option.

[Gaben.]

I appreciate the consideration to keep it open source. I agree that Ultima was probably one of the largest bottlenecks in trying to play the game. It became all about buying and selling as the entire game for newer players, while when I was watching during the spreadsheet days it seemed much more open ended.

Agreed. As anyone who has ever had admin access in CK can attest to, it was very disheartening to see that there was no "gamemaster" console or anything like that For example, probably the most developed module was the "health game," and all that was was a single admin page where the values were changed manually on a per item basis. Even for something like that, some degree of automation should be possible.  

Also, doing some research about haanamaaria would reveal there there was a much longer engagement than a night of singing going on, so I'm not sure what that examples supposed to prove?

On the Google Doc spreadsheets, across both E1 and B1 she has about $400k in depo payments. I was in CK 2016 onward and read most of the thread posts before then before buying into the game and never saw mention of her.

Risto may have mentioned that she gave him money to "invest" in the game (recall, also, that he pretty much said this about everyone "new" around the 2017 days). Again, if Risto was the proxy for all these people, they need to take up any issues with him.

Anyway, just using her as an example of someone who was not in CK that long (if at all) and would be a net outflow of funds that would do nothing to help grow the game. I am sure we could all agree that there are many others users who contributed more to CK that didn't get anything out of the depos at all and are not on those lists.

Overall I agree that a fork is the only path forward for this. Maybe we should take account of the percentage of the Risto controlled accounts amount compared to the rest of the assets in the game? Any good numbers exist on this yet? Either way - maybe an auction of some sort with like 95% of the proceeds going proportionally to the old players that are on the sheet as being owed and 5% going to the new development is a reasonable idea, so long as the past generosity of the players is remembered knowing that with most of these people all you really need is a good idea and the balls to ask for a few dollars to get something off the ground.

Risto-related accounts are around 50% of in-game currency (just going to call this M from now on to save typing). Again, we will not be recognizing the depo-related items. That is only for about 20-25 unique people, and there are far more that lost big in XMR and/or opportunity costs terms who are not on that list. Many of those same users are (or were at one time) major holders of M and game items. If they sold for pennies on the dollar post Risto exit, that was their choice.

Firstly, negative M balances pay interest, and if you check the changelog you can see lots of accounts are currently being slowly eaten away by this 'inactivity tax', and this has been part of the Game rules for a while now, and it's a good mechanism to reduce the negative effects of inactive accounts over time, plus it adds realism to game play.

On the new Agora, negative balances won't be allowed; at least as has been done in the past with CK (as mainly, it was a way for hackers to abuse the system).

However, yes an "inactivity tax" may be imposed (partly to see which accounts are inactive). Currently, we are considering a "Player House" and "Investment House" breakdown.  An Investment House would not have health, NPCs, and if it had property, it may only be able to engage in one pool (say rents) versus some of the higher activity ones (shops, lab, office, etc.).

Also, have we rehashed any discussions about how this in game currency isn't a security yet? Because as long as there is an expectation of profits, it would seem like a security is being distributed and traded internally.

We are talking solely about in-game currency M. M will not have quasi-stock properties (like dividends). There may be things like voting power/delegation and the like, but we will leave these open for now based on pending game design considerations.

And if the chars are inactive, better for us, it means it's more scarce and therefore more valuable.

There is a balance for this. As Gaben and I outlined above, many players beyond Risto accounts will probably be inactive (at say 10%-20% of total M supply cap). That is reasonable. But adding Risto's 50% of the game makes the distribution look terrible.

I know you are on the E1 and B1 depo sheets, but you and everyone else will be far better served by the game just progressing/developing than worrying about those amounts (which were made when Risto was in a poor mental state, so would a reasonable person looking on this scenario in hindsight even allow full recovery of those amounts anyway?).

Also, this very topic (Risto depos) made it where pretty much nothing happened during all of 2017 after Risto left. The current team now has the domain, source code, and complete database of the game. Some lines have to be drawn in the sand to move forward, and the removal of all this depo stuff is one of them.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1905349.msg32269427#msg32269427

Everyone - please offer thoughts on game design in particular. Syksy has done a great job starting the discussion.    

HM was embedded in his personal life for quite some time before CK. When I did my reading there were numerous references to this girl as well as a video where she could be identified doing some promo video eating or drinking at a table.

While I don't currently remember the depth of their involvement, I am sure that it began well before CK. This was revealed to me by reading the dudes profile up until he discovered monero. Whether or not this information is still there is unknown to me, but naturally I took screenshots and copied links and buried them in a hard drive.

Aside from the things I did to remain sane/rationalize a reasonably traumatic situation .. I see you had meant for us to discuss syksys game design ideas.

It looks like a reasonable topology, yet the logical attribution of the order matching isn't mentioned, neither is the api. So possibly ht sees no benefit in third party additions? Or possibly just focusing on the system as a standalone game for the sake of presenting the topology?

I mean have we considered the reality that some NPCs could just be made as player accounts and bot whatever needs to be done through a third party? I mean with everything changing this can all be different and nocs could be a part of the server of course. I guess we were kinda doing that before with the npccs, having their own player accounts and such.

Also lore really intrigues me also, so we got a lot of stuff to draw off of. Do we have any kind of distance or logic set up with regards to a player interacting with a square/hexagonal world grid?

Also I'm confused what he means by 'pseudolanguage for in game modifications ' does he mean he'd like the gm side of the game to be more automated? Like just type in a command like ' create win 500 yellow ..' and have 500 yellow wins appear in an inventory or is something else being discussed here?

[CrazyLoaf]

Are Speed and the King in on this fork or are they planning/making another version of CK? Or are they out of the game completely?

Speed has not been on IRC, CK Slack, etc. in forever. His last post on BTCTalk was in September 2017. If HMC wants to make his own thing, he is welcome to, but he is also welcome to play in this CK with his items/etc.

I spent 200 XMR to purchase CKG just before the game was unpaused

We all lost money on the game. Even those who were able to get something out of the depo are still way down on crypto terms (but possibly up on fiat terms).

We were all misled by things like "unpausing" and the like. I know I'm not alone in thinking (at least at one time) that all of Risto's nonsense was some sort of alternative reality game (ARG) to promote a new version of CK.

If Ristos items are going to be taken away without refunding the creditors, the game should at least be forked from a date prior to the depo scam.

We won't be doing a prior date fork. For one, CK is not a blockchain so a database fork, especially given how the data was stored, would be an absolute mess.

Just to give one example, what happens with Karl Hungus and Gringotts? All those items him and Roopatra auctioned off are now back in his account to sell again, and honestly based on earlier posts from him, it looks pretty clear he wants the position that he has now (not as a player but as an asset-holder). He even killed off both of his characters!

I have no XMR, no CKG and no BTC.
Fork prior to the depo scam or refund the debt holders from Zechariach.
At least use other chars for the good of the game, but use at least Zechariach to repay his debts.

We are not dealing with the B1 and E1 depos. If someone has issues with Risto, get in touch with him. There is Malla Manor / Bitcoin castle and tens of millions (at current values if he kept what he had) in that Poloniex account he flashed to us in 2017.

Let us try to actually do something with the game and leave this depo stuff behind us.

The main motivation for reviving CK is -- honestly -- it is insane that something like this with such a history/lineage and so much money moving around it is dead now.

I mean on just what Risto paid PJ (was it 10k or 20k XMR, can't remember now) to "never work for money again," that is $2mil to $4mil at current market values (and was $200k to $400k when paid). Why do we not have a game after that?

Hell, Risto had upwards of 50k XMR in just his CK XMR wallet around the same time. Ten million dollars go poof and still no game?!?

[Syksy]

It looks like a reasonable topology, yet the logical attribution of the order matching isn't mentioned, neither is the api. So possibly ht sees no benefit in third party additions? Or possibly just focusing on the system as a standalone game for the sake of presenting the topology?

I mean have we considered the reality that some NPCs could just be made as player accounts and bot whatever needs to be done through a third party? I mean with everything changing this can all be different and nocs could be a part of the server of course. I guess we were kinda doing that before with the npccs, having their own player accounts and such.

Also lore really intrigues me also, so we got a lot of stuff to draw off of. Do we have any kind of distance or logic set up with regards to a player interacting with a square/hexagonal world grid?

Also I'm confused what he means by 'pseudolanguage for in game modifications ' does he mean he'd like the gm side of the game to be more automated? Like just type in a command like ' create win 500 yellow ..' and have 500 yellow wins appear in an inventory or is something else being discussed here?

Thanks for the comments! It was a very broad overview, so many aspects of it are still vague. It was just one proposal to get the wheels turning.

Specific responses:
"It looks like a reasonable topology, yet the logical attribution of the order matching isn't mentioned, neither is the api. So possibly ht sees no benefit in third party additions? Or possibly just focusing on the system as a standalone game for the sake of presenting the topology?"

1)
Aye, apologies for vagueness on some parts. It's a kind of an "opener", so I just wanted to lay down maybe some of the most important differences. I do acknowledge the background aspects that are important, even if I don't enumerate them here yet explicitly - but I acknowledge e.g. the importance of a well functioning item-trade and API; on this oversight they just weren't yet included. In my proposed approach, items and characters would be time and location bound. Therefore order matching (I suppose you mean here how to do actual trades) has to happen locally (or by acknowledging that certain goods are located in an another position) and is more complicated as we wouldn't have the always-accessible universal type of Agora market. I think this has potential to make certain emergent phenoma such as trade hubs, "trader-career", "logistics-career/services", "highway-robbery", etc.
2)
API is obviously an important aspect; I'd say we ought to implement a similar level API e.g. which was usable by Saddam's IRC-bot in the past. The coordinate/time-bound aspects do bring new challenges, but definitely a strong API-support is important.
3)
As you can notice this whole new system only briefly even addresses e.g. Item-class and Event-class (which prob would include subclasses Trade, Give, etc events), so if the overall topology looks feasible I could delve deeper into the details.

"I mean have we considered the reality that some NPCs could just be made as player accounts and bot whatever needs to be done through a third party? I mean with everything changing this can all be different and nocs could be a part of the server of course. I guess we were kinda doing that before with the npccs, having their own player accounts and such.

1)
In my vision, there would ideally be no distinguishing between PC and NPC. Only in practice there would be; nobody wants to play the NPC that goes to work and returns home with a cabbage to feed his family, nor was there real incentive to do so. We could see an extreme tilt in the active player base in the old game, where basically anybody who was even remotely active were (high-end) nobles, and even the middle-class was lacking, even if in theory the levels tried to portrait all hierarchies of such a society. The only time lower level chars made an appearance was when people were abusing the free CAN gift to spam accounts and then sell the CAN...
2)
In this new proposition, at least according to the PC/NPC hierarchy you can see that they both inherit from the main upper classes, belonging to a family etc. While NPC families (or houses or whatever you want to call them) would be only minor, at least in theory somebody who wants to set up and run a company of say masons could do so. By leaving a bit of lenience between the borderline of PC and NPC, we could end up in a world that's entirely habitated by PCs (majority of whom are the "peasants"). Main thing is I'd suggest inhabitating a large quantity of NPCs into the world with a certain logic AI (be it stochastic or deterministic) that would allow us to have a living, breathing world to begin with. Say, these NPCs  would naturally look for a place to rent/own, a work that would suit their attributes, stay healthy (i.e. buy a variety of edible goods).
3)
I think the biggest difference here in comparison to the old world is that instead of running the whole supply/demand market based on "expert-curated formulae", where the NPCs were either embedded into the yearly fees (e.g. farm-items) or to NPC-items (like the soldiers/butlers whatnot with fixed fees per year), the system would be emergent based on the largely NPC-inhabitated world (at least first). If the game catches wind under its wings I don't see a reason why the whole world wouldn't eventually be habitated by PCs mainly (I'm a bit sceptic of this though).
P.S. I'm a big fan of emergent phenomena

"Also lore really intrigues me also, so we got a lot of stuff to draw off of. Do we have any kind of distance or logic set up with regards to a player interacting with a square/hexagonal world grid?"

1)
The lore is going to be quite a large divider of people, some of whom wanted to model specific non-fictional history (which was CK's early history), but it deviated more and more going as far as Dragons, Unicorns and whatnot, though the game did model a country somewhat similar to renaissance-era Baltic country/countries.
2)
I like writing fiction, and would most definitely be up for writing the background premise. Most likely it would be steampunk'ish fic with a twist of dieselpunk, depending how we'd want to model future development of potential technology. This might be off-putting to some people who'd like to stick to strict historical premises, but I think the game's gone far past that already years ago. My preliminary idea was some sort-of a post-apocalyptical rebuilding of society in an alternate universe (i.e. not bound to real world map or how historical progression truly happened in neighboring counties). I think this would be highly beneficial also for emergence-driven gameplay, as we'd have pretty much no historical bounds to work within, except the ones we want to incorporate.
3)
Yup, I've worked quite a bit of with hexagonals. I think the main questions are:
Continuous or discrete world space? Both square and hexagonal grid are discrete choices, which obviously affect the gameplay a lot. I see more benefits in a discretized world rather than a continuous {x,y} coordinates (or possibly even {x,y,z}), but this can be of course debated. This was just a starter.
If we go with a discretized world:
3a) Square grid's main advantage is that it's easier to implement and often more intuitive, and to a degree easier to draw using conventional graphics (many pre-existing assets, and we don't have a paid artist so that's a bottleneck if we want to make a visually appealing game)...
3b) Hexagonal grid has the main advantage that it's more realistic geometrically, thinking about i.e. the Manhattan-type distance from location A to location B. For example in square grid moving diagonally is basicly sqrt(2) worth of {x,y} movement, while vertical or horizontal movement is worth only 1. I might be a bit biased towards hexagonal grid because many of games I've liked have functioned using such an implementation. Hexagonal grid can be modeled using mainly two different coordinate systems, for which an excellent article can be found here (covers also path-finding algorithms and other essentials for a functional game): https://www.redblobgames.com/grids/hexagons/
3b) In terms of player-interaction with the world, I think I might've abused the notation with the WorldTile, LocalTile and ZoomTile, but the basic idea depth of vision is described like:
- Grid doesn't necessarily have to have a unit distance between each grid element; say, moving from a tile with a cobblestone road to an adjacent cobblestone road tile ought to take less time units than moving from heavily forrested area to rocky and snowy terrain.
- WorldTile compromise of say woods, town district blocks, major roads, mountains, lakes/rivers, etc. Basically the typical world map you see in many hex-based games.
- LocalTile goes deeper into say a town district. It'll show minor/major roads, shops, factories, homes, etc and this would most likely be the level where most of the NPC simulations would occur. For PCs, they might still want to go a bit deeper but for major actions such as navigating from a major building (say, the home of the Family/Guild) to an another (say the Auction Hall) would happen on this level. I'm also thinking if/when there would be battle-conflicts, they would occur on LocalTile-level.
- ZoomTile would be a bit of vanity-level detail or inspecting micro-level details e.g. for NPC behavior or fine-tuning your houses/guards/etc.
Basically what I was initially thinking of, is that for example characters would consist of a 3-tier "location":
{x_world, y_world}>{x_local, y_local}>{x_zoom, y_zoom}.
For different actions, one might have to use the world-level (say pre-plan on which way to expand to), for others (say trade for example) local-coordinates could suffice. For more detailed actions, like emotes or discussing on game map, this could occur on zoom level, or if you want to make sure your character is at a certain position for example in regards to an upcoming potential battle or something.

I know this level is still very vague, but I could try find the time to draw example tiles on each level and see how they'd look like visualized. I think I was one of the few who contributed original graphical assets to the game in the past, but if there's an artist among us willing to contribute then of course that'd be very welcome.


"Also I'm confused what he means by 'pseudolanguage for in game modifications ' does he mean he'd like the gm side of the game to be more automated? Like just type in a command like ' create win 500 yellow ..' and have 500 yellow wins appear in an inventory or is something else being discussed here?"

Sorry I was way too vague on this. Yep, you're pretty much right: basically I'm thinking of a scripting language that would allow for GM's to make changes to the real-time world. Say, spawn item, monster, alter terrain/building, etc.
Some of this functionality was readily available in past versions like CREATE command with a list of pre-determined parameters to create a new item with certain name, id, description, item_type, quantity, ckg_contained, etc fields. When there were bigger flaws, basicly the way for anybody trying to game master was to go through GM -> || Barrier ||->  HM -> || Heavy filter ||-> PJ. Maybe it's because of my experiences as a GM in the past implementation that I wanted to bring this issue up already now; maybe it's not one of the first things to implement, but it would lessen the burden on people working on code level to share it to the people creating content, refuting blatant abusers/cheaters and making sure the world's on its tracks (=GMs) who'd need it to be able to function in the first place.


I am by no means a zealot in regards to any of the particular choices in my suggested overview, so feel free to propose other alternative routes. I don't think I'll be the one in charge of making the ultimate decisions anyway, as I'm more of a game dev hobbyist trying to contribute in my own fashion (albeit I've always only worked on single player games). Although given the game's history, the "game dev" stamp will usually end up on people who seemingly volunteer to such by thinking about/contributing to such things

Cheers,
Syksy

[CrazyLoaf]

Syksy mentioned this in chat, but I think it's fantastic enough that it should be posted here as well:

one idea I had in mind, is that maybe the old map could be discarded and people just credited using a relevant proxy of some sort; re-make the map with weighted turns based on their prior ownership of buildings etc in the old world, and give a corresponding amount of land/materials to re-create whatever they wish in the new world (just a thought)

This in particular, combined with the other items and design considerations he mentioned in his earlier posts, will be a great place to start CK from

[bv68bot]

If Ristos items are going to be taken away without refunding the creditors, the game should at least be forked from a date prior to the depo scam.

We won't be doing a prior date fork. For one, CK is not a blockchain so a database fork, especially given how the data was stored, would be an absolute mess.

Just to give one example, what happens with Karl Hungus and Gringotts? All those items him and Roopatra auctioned off are now back in his account to sell again, and honestly based on earlier posts from him, it looks pretty clear he wants the position that he has now (not as a player but as an asset-holder). He even killed off both of his characters!

I have no XMR, no CKG and no BTC.
Fork prior to the depo scam or refund the debt holders from Zechariach.
At least use other chars for the good of the game, but use at least Zechariach to repay his debts.

We are not dealing with the B1 and E1 depos. If someone has issues with Risto, get in touch with him. There is Malla Manor / Bitcoin castle and tens of millions (at current values if he kept what he had) in that Poloniex account he flashed to us in 2017.

Let us try to actually do something with the game and leave this depo stuff behind us.

The main motivation for reviving CK is -- honestly -- it is insane that something like this with such a history/lineage and so much money moving around it is dead now.

I mean on just what Risto paid PJ (was it 10k or 20k XMR, can't remember now) to "never work for money again," that is $2mil to $4mil at current market values (and was $200k to $400k when paid). Why do we not have a game after that?

Hell, Risto had upwards of 50k XMR in just his CK XMR wallet around the same time. Ten million dollars go poof and still no game?!?

We should take the path that requires the least amount of changes, and that's what Loaf trying to do, turn Risto's accounts into communal Game funds, simple!

Anything else, like trying to resolve b1 debts is too difficult, too impractical, and there will never be universal agreement, I for one think Risto was impaired mentally during the whole depo era, and all withdrawals during that time are questionable, and would need to be returned first in order to distribute to everyone effected fairly. Is that ever going to happen ... no way, what happened can't be reversed, and trying to pay Risto's debts now causes more problems than it solves, and just as many people will disagree, probably more. I don't want to be diluted, and I don't want the potential dev funds reduced to create b1 whales with dubious origins.

None of that means I don't feel for those who lost money, but the biggest loser in CK so far is Risto himself (+50K XMR), and then guys like Karl Hungus (+30K), and then all the rest of us. We all lost, and trying to make some people whole by essentially giving them dev funds will cause more problems than it solves.

All people on the b1 spreadsheet have the option to deal with Risto IRL, but the result might not be what you expect. A contract entered into with a mentally ill person is probably void in most jurisdictions, if you KNOWINGLY profited from a contract with a mentally ill person, what then? Probably a crime in many countries, and really dangerous territory to enter. I remember during the depo crisis Risto was giving away wads of money, and people were withdrawing XMR & bitcoin while Risto was talking about his family crisis interspersed with weird religious 'voices' and talk of suicide and how depressed he was. Seriously, if the Game needs to use Risto's assets to pay b1 debts then ALL those withdrawals and giveaways need to be revisited, to keep things 'fair'.

What we need to do is think like a triage nurse in a battle hospital, who can we help, who is going to die no matter what, who can be saved and needs attention immediately? We can save CK, but not if we spend scarce resources on Risto's b1 & e1 debts.

[bv68bot]

Syksy mentioned this in chat, but I think it's fantastic enough that it should be posted here as well:

one idea I had in mind, is that maybe the old map could be discarded and people just credited using a relevant proxy of some sort; re-make the map with weighted turns based on their prior ownership of buildings etc in the old world, and give a corresponding amount of land/materials to re-create whatever they wish in the new world (just a thought)

This is a great idea, and a good way to re-issue game items generally, so if a player owns 5% of a current item class like wine, and the new game design decides we only need 1 type of wine instead of 20, then that player gets allocated 5% of the new wine float. We could use that method to re-issue almost any item, and if some items are going to be deleted completely we can just allocate M from game funds based on estimated value of the deleted item. Let the Game restart with a clean slate, if the game designers want to.

I always thought the game had too many items, and a lot of duplication for the early alpha stage, and it made things overly complicated. Wherever possible I hope things get simplified as much as possible, and automated based on known rules wherever possible. Get back to the original idea of crypto monopoly in a Game of Thrones setting.

[KLONE]

We are not dealing with the B1 and E1 depos. If someone has issues with Risto, get in touch with him. There is Malla Manor / Bitcoin castle and tens of millions (at current values if he kept what he had) in that Poloniex account he flashed to us in 2017.

Let us try to actually do something with the game and leave this depo stuff behind us.

The main motivation for reviving CK is -- honestly -- it is insane that something like this with such a history/lineage and so much money moving around it is dead now.

What would happen if the forked CK paid b1 & e1 debts, and later Risto regained his sanity and started working on original CK version with PJ? Could he write off the b1 & e1 debts in CK original, because they were paid in CK fork? I don't think we've seen the last of Risto, so this is possible .... arrgh lol

I agree, leave the depo stuff behind us, and get CK restarted and M listed on an exchange asap!

[acdc]

It also is obvious that CK has one hell of a "proof of burn" valuation model. Just thinking of a few larger investors, easily 150k XMR was "lost" or "used" (depends on perspective) in the game, so around $50 million. And the total amounts could be far higher.

Good point, Counterparty always stands out coz they they used proof of burn for their distribution, after 4 years watching this space burning and PoW are the only ways to distribute coins without any bad smell.

Ending thought: Syksy is awesome!

Yes, Syksy would make an excellent game master!

[iluvbitcoins]

We are not dealing with the B1 and E1 depos. If someone has issues with Risto, get in touch with him. There is Malla Manor / Bitcoin castle and tens of millions (at current values if he kept what he had) in that Poloniex account he flashed to us in 2017.

Let us try to actually do something with the game and leave this depo stuff behind us.

The main motivation for reviving CK is -- honestly -- it is insane that something like this with such a history/lineage and so much money moving around it is dead now.

What would happen if the forked CK paid b1 & e1 debts, and later Risto regained his sanity and started working on original CK version with PJ? Could he write off the b1 & e1 debts in CK original, because they were paid in CK fork? I don't think we've seen the last of Risto, so this is possible .... arrgh lol

I agree, leave the depo stuff behind us, and get CK restarted and M listed on an exchange asap!

Which game would repay those debts? Crypto Kingdom certainly would not.
It's Zechariach and other Rpietilas charachters ingame.