CryptoKingdom Uncensored

[CrazyLoaf]

An airdrop of 5% of M float now would get attention, if combined with a 5% signature bounty I think we'd see a lot more activity around CK. Existing players are carrying a lot of 'baggage' from the 2014-2017 era whatever their opinions might be on Loaf's fork - we need to dilute that negative influence by getting new people who are exclusively focused on the future and not the past.

CK legacy is sadly stuck dealing with the Risto debt issue, and it'll be impossible to get unanimous agreement on what to do. If any fork or reboot is going to work it needs to have a solid foundation of common purpose from the early adopters & founders, and I don't see that happening now, most existing players are staying silent, which makes perfect sense given the history here.

I'm going to suggest we start from scratch with game design & in-game items, and simply use the 'proof-of-burn' others have mentioned to distribute Game wealth to existing players, and then distribute remaining M and land etc from giveways , airdrops and bounties, obviously keeping a % for dev funds & further marketing etc

By airdrop, are you meaning to new or preexisting players?

We are looking at ways all item transactions can be on their own blockchain (so any fees are in CKG). Before that, we may possibly do something like an ERC20 token combined with an airdrop to ETH balances above a certain base level.

Signature campaigns, sure, as well as possibly a campaign for BTCTalk members above a certain level (to avoid as many bots as possible).

This will be a from scratch game design with new items. The suggestions for hex-based map layers as well as creating a property "proxy" so that people can build things in the new world if they had property in the old one really made it clear that a completely new game is needed.

Some items of a high enough level (or historic collectibles, think coins) will carry over, possibly with game-specific attributes. Say ART: why can't the item level be a +% modifier for "culture" attributes?

It's open to suggestion but the most simple calculation would be:

deposits - withdrawals = burn

Assuming saddam has the depository records it would be possible to calculate a net profit/loss for every player from CK legacy.

I don't think saddam can get this data for us, and even if we had it, matters are complicated by the fact that some users had multiple accounts or had non-depo-related transactions for CK. For example, the bulk of my CK buys were OTC with other CK users.

[boomboom]

By airdrop, are you meaning to new or preexisting players?

We are looking at ways all item transactions can be on their own blockchain (so any fees are in CKG). Before that, we may possibly do something like an ERC20 token combined with an airdrop to ETH balances above a certain base level.

Signature campaigns, sure, as well as possibly a campaign for BTCTalk members above a certain level (to avoid as many bots as possible).

I suggest doing an airdrop that requires 'claiming' to prevent losing some money supply, but make the amounts generous, and open to everyone preexisting & new players. The target could be existing crypto like BTC & ETH, but I'd focus on crypto and gaming communities first like BTCTalk, e.g. all Members and up on this forum have the option to make a claim, could be weekly/monthly - then to complete the process they have to actually register on the new Game site to receive their airdropped game currency.

I wouldn't risk giving game currency away that might never get claimed, that's a problem with airdropping on ETH or BTC. You could nominate a global % figure for the total airdrop (e.g. 25%), and then tally up all the accumulated claims just before the launch, and then calculate what each claim 'stake' was actually worth in Game currency. That would only reward people proportionally for time actually following CK from here until launch, and for people who show some level of 'activity' through a periodic claim process and see it through to launch day. If the airdrop was generous people start thinking about the history of NEM stakes. Learn from the NEM experience, they made some mistakes but basically created a committed community because people had to keep following for +18 months before they actually got their NEM, many dropped off, and those unclaimed stakes went back into dev & community funds, nothing was wasted.

This will be a from scratch game design with new items. The suggestions for hex-based map layers as well as creating a property "proxy" so that people can build things in the new world if they had property in the old one really made it clear that a completely new game is needed.

Some items of a high enough level (or historic collectibles, think coins) will carry over, possibly with game-specific attributes. Say ART: why can't the item level be a +% modifier for "culture" attributes?

Sounds great, I agree 100% !!

I don't think saddam can get this data for us, and even if we had it, matters are complicated by the fact that some users had multiple accounts or had non-depo-related transactions for CK. For example, the bulk of my CK buys were OTC with other CK users.

Ok, that settles that then. What you're proposing is a minimalist approach anyway (use Risto's accounts for dev& community funds, put b1 debts in the too hard basket and move on), and it's basically proof of burn but keeping the net effect of +2 years of gameplay, so it's fair IMO, and possible to implement without too much trouble, and achievable!

All things considered this is CK's best chance!

[CrazyLoaf]

New IRC Channel & Waiting on Slack

We have #cryptokingdom on freenode IRC now. Yes, the old IRC chat still exists, but trying to standardize domains and chat naming as much as we can. Feel free to join!

Also, hoping to get cryptokingdom.slack.com moved over so that it can be integrated with the IRC chat.

Ryver remains up, but it looks like they are switching to paid and Slack has more preexisting apps and can hookup to IRC and the like.

[CK_Zephyrus]

There are few things which appear not quite right here with CrazyLoaf's recent posts:

- "Treating Project as fork"

The name is reused. The website is reused. The database is reused. The accounts are reused. This is clearly not a fork, and the "fork" moniker is only used to try to change the rules to effect a "Game Takeover of Risto-Related Assets". If you want to fork it, fork it. But claiming it's a fork is not enough if you're just taking the existing game over.

- Dishonest representations about the debts

The fact that the game would be better off by doing something does not mean you suddenly get a moral authority to do that thing if it contravenes earlier rules or obligations.

Claiming HannaMaaria should not be owned what's owed to her because she "only sang at Risto's embassy for a few hours" is utterly irrelevant. I believe she sent a lot of her money in the game, but even if it was not true, you don't get to cancel people's claims with an opinion on whether a claim ought to be honoured.

Similarly, you don't get to claim a debt is somehow less valid if the player was not active on BCT or IRC. If activity was even a factor, you should at least consider activity in the game, and not an external place.

Therefore, there are two possible ways to go ahead: fork, or resolve the in game debts:

Forking is what Loaf claims to be doing, despite the facts pointing to not being a fork.

Resolving the debts would be better. You'd do something similar to bankruptcy proceedings, and liquidate Risto's in game holdings *after due process*. That due process would involve notification of debtor and creditors, then (assuming no objection, and I have no reason to believe there would be any) distribution of those holdings to creditors. Any debt is then cancelled. A possibility is to include some percentage of that liquidation to be paid to a game fund.

While Risto owes those people who withdrew, the game also owes risto control of those in game holdings, and blithely taking them is wrong. Such a liquidation procedure would get rid of the debt issue in a formal and morally right way, without having to resort to subterfuge.

About the "risto's debt in a fork": if liquidation is accepted by creditors, that "real life" debt disappears. If it does not happen and a fork happens instead, then the real life debt obviously does not get duplicated.

About the attempt to redirect IRC to another channel where Loaf presumably has op privileges, I have to view this in light of the above attempts and deduce this is an attempt to further portraying the fake-fork idea. ##crypto-kingdom is still around with people in it.

[magemist]

Sounds like fun! Blockchain is the future. Dev and admins still needed. Anyway, I am with you, and I will try to help what I can. I am here to play, been waiting too long already.

FUCKING SHUT UP ALREADY FUCKING IDIOT!

Do not believe this bastard!
HE IS FULL OF SHIT! Tongue

Dont believe this fucker.

Gave me telegram: @FHCP9999 GOING BY THE NAME Francio says he is from Ecuador. Another fucking lie but Spanish just from the names he was giving me earlier (several different email addresses).

He is running a scam here using multiple accounts all linked by this one address:
https://blockchain.info/address/1Q8PWr4LLNqQcqAwMYA8QwEyhpJm9Z7qRm

Just look at all the payments made mine being the last one made.

Other accounts: Humberone, Davidxxx and alot more.

Francisco Carjavel is his name he gave out.

[boomboom]

There are few things which appear not quite right here with CrazyLoaf's recent posts:

- "Treating Project as fork"

The name is reused. The website is reused. The database is reused. The accounts are reused. This is clearly not a fork, and the "fork" moniker is only used to try to change the rules to effect a "Game Takeover of Risto-Related Assets". If you want to fork it, fork it. But claiming it's a fork is not enough if you're just taking the existing game over.

I agree the name should be changed asap, but afaik the database is only being used now to establish a measure of 'proof of burn' for each CK player, and that will only be used to re-issue new game currency, land, and items for the fork DB's genesis state. I think Loaf said the game design for his version will be starting from scratch, with a hexagonal based land system, and new items etc, so I think if that does indeed happen this will be a legitimate fork.

- Dishonest representations about the debts

The fact that the game would be better off by doing something does not mean you suddenly get a moral authority to do that thing if it contravenes earlier rules or obligations.

Claiming HannaMaaria should not be owned what's owed to her because she "only sang at Risto's embassy for a few hours" is utterly irrelevant. I believe she sent a lot of her money in the game, but even if it was not true, you don't get to cancel people's claims with an opinion on whether a claim ought to be honoured.

Similarly, you don't get to claim a debt is somehow less valid if the player was not active on BCT or IRC. If activity was even a factor, you should at least consider activity in the game, and not an external place.

I don't know enough about this player's situation to comment, but I agree activity is not relevant to judge the legitimacy of someone's loss. There are many people who lost a lot of money in CK, and even if this Fork version doesn't benefit everyone we should not be insensitive to the reality of other peoples lost money.

Therefore, there are two possible ways to go ahead: fork, or resolve the in game debts:

Forking is what Loaf claims to be doing, despite the facts pointing to not being a fork.

Resolving the debts would be better. You'd do something similar to bankruptcy proceedings, and liquidate Risto's in game holdings *after due process*. That due process would involve notification of debtor and creditors, then (assuming no objection, and I have no reason to believe there would be any) distribution of those holdings to creditors. Any debt is then cancelled. A possibility is to include some percentage of that liquidation to be paid to a game fund.

While Risto owes those people who withdrew, the game also owes risto control of those in game holdings, and blithely taking them is wrong. Such a liquidation procedure would get rid of the debt issue in a formal and morally right way, without having to resort to subterfuge.

About the "risto's debt in a fork": if liquidation is accepted by creditors, that "real life" debt disappears. If it does not happen and a fork happens instead, then the real life debt obviously does not get duplicated.

About the attempt to redirect IRC to another channel where Loaf presumably has op privileges, I have to view this in light of the above attempts and deduce this is an attempt to further portraying the fake-fork idea. ##crypto-kingdom is still around with people in it.

I agree, there are only two options - fork or resolve debts - but I don't think resolving debts is possible now, mainly because there isn't even a dialogue open between the parties, and Risto is not available for discussion now, so any debt resolution will be unilaterally imposed on him.

When Karl Hungus approached me to help with Gringotts I was relatively new to CK but started following closely, and Risto was still posting and Karl was offering suggestions and trying to get the two sides of the b1 debts to negotiate and was offering himself as a mediator of sorts, but nothing came of that. Now Risto is gone, and so is Karl, and there's no conversation even.

I'd say the choice now is really between doing nothing and letting CK end, restarting completely from scratch (i.e no proof of burn airdrop for past players at all), or start from scratch with a new game design but attempt some form of proof of burn airdrop on CK that's both possible to do, and gets some support.

Putting the debts in the too hard basket and using Risto's accounts for dev & community funds is both possible to do, and will get some support, but obviously not from everyone, some won't like it, BUT, as long as Loaf's version ends up a genuine Fork, I can't see a problem myself. Those who don't like it can stay with CK legacy.

Trying to resolve the b1 debts doesn't look possible now, the only option to do that would be confiscating Risto's CK assets and distributing them to b1 creditors, but without Risto involved this won't be cool with  many people, and IMO it's worse than putting the b1 debts in the too hard basket. Who has authority to do this? Some people have already made a good profit from CK, if they also hold b1 debts and would get more, some people will obviously complain that isn't fair because they haven't experienced any CK losses, and didn't feel the CK  'burn'.

Anyway, I agree that Loaf needs to take onboard how critical it is to make this a genuine Fork, and I think he does, and that will let others who don't agree with this plan retain the original CK name, website, DB, and what remain's of PJ's dev work. Then people can agree to disagree, and choose if they want to participate in Loaf's new game, or continue waiting and hoping for a resolution of the CK b1 debt situation.

[CrazyLoaf]

I agree the name should be changed asap, but afaik the database is only being used now to establish a measure of 'proof of burn' for each CK player, and that will only be used to re-issue new game currency, land, and items for the fork DB's genesis state. I think Loaf said the game design for his version will be starting from scratch, with a hexagonal based land system, and new items etc, so I think if that does indeed happen this will be a legitimate fork.

Due to confusion and the fact that CK has never had a blockchain, "fork" was probably not the appropriate word to use.

This is especially true as while data/ownership information from the old CK may be used, the site, database, game logic, etc. will be built from scratch. Even though CK was on a website, it was still very much a "manual" game, and that status carries on throughout the (very minimal, I might add) code.

The game name will remain "Crypto Kingdom" in some fashion and the game currency will be "Crypto Kingdom Gold." Don't really see a need to change the name as it is pretty obvious CK is currently a dead project and there isn't a token on any exchange to create confusion.   

I don't know enough about this player's situation to comment, but I agree activity is not relevant to judge the legitimacy of someone's loss. There are many people who lost a lot of money in CK, and even if this Fork version doesn't benefit everyone we should not be insensitive to the reality of other peoples lost money.

Okay, probably not the best example.

I didn't mention the following the first time, but I will here as an alternative example since this has been brought up again. What I was instead going to do was mention several people on the depo list who had partial asset recovery in some way for CK. Not mentioning names, but here are four examples of those who:

- Withdrew ~50 BTC and were paid ~50 BTC extra by mistake and got to keep it

- Withdrew ~100 BTC

- Given ~5k XMR for supporting an exchange asset (which we still don't have)

- Recovered ~5k XMR due to Risto fat fingering the M3/M marketplace

I agree, there are only two options - fork or resolve debts - but I don't think resolving debts is possible now, mainly because there isn't even a dialogue open between the parties, and Risto is not available for discussion now, so any debt resolution will be unilaterally imposed on him.

This I think is the key part in bold. Risto is aware of his debts, contact has been attempted in multiple channels, multiple times (including in person). If someone can get him to pay the debts, great, I'll get in line with my clam. But let's get real, he's not coming back.

I'd say the choice now is really between doing nothing and letting CK end, restarting completely from scratch (i.e no proof of burn airdrop for past players at all), or start from scratch with a new game design but attempt some form of proof of burn airdrop on CK that's both possible to do, and gets some support.

And that "proof of burn airdrop" is a decent way of expressing what is going on.

If you own property in CK now, for example, it has been the result of tens if not hundreds of thousands of XMR invested in the property markets. We will try to come up with a way for users with property to build in the new game (keeping in mind that the game had 25 planned boroughs and only about 7-8 were unlocked and present in the old CK game).

Trying to resolve the b1 debts doesn't look possible now, the only option to do that would be confiscating Risto's CK assets and distributing them to b1 creditors, but without Risto involved this won't be cool with  many people, and IMO it's worse than putting the b1 debts in the too hard basket. Who has authority to do this? Some people have already made a good profit from CK, if they also hold b1 debts and would get more, some people will obviously complain that isn't fair because they haven't experienced any CK losses, and didn't feel the CK  'burn'.

Anyway, I agree that Loaf needs to take onboard how critical it is to make this a genuine Fork, and I think he does, and that will let others who don't agree with this plan retain the original CK name, website, DB, and what remains of PJ's dev work. Then people can agree to disagree, and choose if they want to participate in Loaf's new game, or continue waiting and hoping for a resolution of the CK b1 debt situation.

To add, we also have E1 in the "too hard" stack and claims there exceed B1 if the euros are converted to BTC back in 2017 and brought forward to the current year.

And any sort of distribution towards depo claims leaves no room for "growth" in the game. With the advancement in crypto expectations in general, I would say CK is in an even worse position today as I really doubt anyone would be willing to work on it "for free" when they can just run an ICO and make their own money.

The new CK game will be on a new domain (as, tbh, .me is a shit domain anyway). Overall, we as a community have been waiting over a year for just something (and well over two for even a functioning game). If someone has an idea beyond "pay me $1 million in Bitcoin" due to depo claims, let's hear em

[CrazyLoaf]

CK Slack & IRC - Update

#cryptokingdom on Freenode IRC

https://tinyurl.com/ckslack for Slack signup

Ryver is going to paid at the end of the month and lacks many of the crypto-friendly integrations that Slack has, so may as well use Slack even in light of its 10k message limit for free accounts.

[boomboom]

The new CK game will be on a new domain (as, tbh, .me is a shit domain anyway). Overall, we as a community have been waiting over a year for just something (and well over two for even a functioning game). If someone has an idea beyond "pay me $1 million in Bitcoin" due to depo claims, let's hear em

Yeah, we need more input and constructive ideas now, I think a name change has benefits beyond just distancing the new Game from the past and helping to make it crystal clear this is not a continuation of CK, but I can definitely live with it.

I think the word "crypto" will end up like 'e' and 'online', so while in the late 90's www.e-carsales.com or www.onlinecarsales.com looked ok, now they look very dated. Eventually, everyone will just know and accept that value transfer in an online Game or community will involve crypto assets, so I think we could drop all mention of the word 'crypto'. In 2014 it made sense to point out the connection with crypto, but wow, we've come a long way since then, I think we could focus exclusively on the Game part, and eventually the crypto aspect just becomes 'normal'. BUT, it's not a big thing

[CrazyLoaf]

We're here to make a game, but the conversation (particularly on IRC) has often times focused more on the B1/E1 items. Going to address this one more time and hopefully for the last time as we think everyone would much rather see game development than more depo-related posts (to match the tens if not hundreds of pages discussing the exact same thing here on BTCTalk).

Not going to lie, I lost my cool when talking with moneromooo on IRC yesterday as it is extremely frustrating to lose a lot of time and money (when the game was under Risto's management) and then have any efforts to try to revitalize that project be constantly met with calls of scam.

Personally, I lost money like many others buying/investing in the game and have depo claims as well. In particular, it seems people forget that first point ("many others buying/investing in the game"). We have a handful of users with large depo claims. The original CK thread still is the 2nd most viewed thread in altcoin discussion. There are so many more users that put money into the game and watched it evaporate.   

To discuss further, we have watched CK go from low activity to almost no activity. After the depo debacle, there were still new users checking out the game, we had over 50+ people on IRC, chat was more active, people (new and old) were bringing forth ideas, etc. There was potential then, and there is still potential, but it will be a much more difficult slog now.

However, focusing on the depo debts (and to be specific, the overtly negative manner in which some of the more vocal members of the community have discussed them in the last year) chased away players, new and old.

Anyone can look on this forum, prior IRC posts, etc. to see why the best way to move forward is to just start as cleanly as possible without this B1/E1 business and airdrop new (and imported) game assets to old users, and try to grow the playerbase and drive development by utilizing Risto's (as of now) insanely large percentage holdings of the game's items.

To reiterate, here is why this is being done in this fashion:

We have to verify depo items, not all users added themselves to Smooth's spreadsheet, etc.

Even if all users are 100% verfied, just paying them the tens, hundreds, and millions they are claiming represents a net outflow of funds from a dead game. No new user will join a project if they know money that they put into it will not help the project, but instead pay off old claims.

We have already seen that tens, hundreds, and millions in payment does not equal actual growth in the game. Again, we have people on the depo lists who were able to get this much out in fiat-terms from the game, were gifted the money by Risto, took advantage of his fat-fingering M/M3 orders, etc. On these same users, even if these users are still down in terms of XMR investment, they are up in fiat terms. And what have they done with their funds taken out of the game? Not support the game in anyway. Most are gone, never to be heard from again. 

If you want to claim the debts, let me tell you want anyone else would claim: the funds you got out of the game. That is called a clawback. So if you got 100 BTC out of the game, took out 50 BTC and were given 50 BTC extra by accident, were gifted 5k XMR to make a game token and never did it, or caught Risto's fat-fingering and got 5k XMR out of the game, guess what? Those funds need to be clawed back and shared with all affected parties!

And this focus on the B1/E1 debts ignores all users in the game who now own worthless game items. It doesn't matter if you have B1/E1 or just game currency (M) or even squirrel pelts! All of this is worth zero! You can't even get a few dollars worth of XMR into or out of the game as the only XMR depository (https://deposit.cryptokingdomgold.com) has been down for almost a month!

Overall, if you made some money off of Risto's misplaced generosity or by smartly playing the depo insanity, that's great! Be happy with what you have and stop trying to block anything from happening for all the other hundreds of users.

As a final point, some users are now trying to approach this from the angle of legal semantics. If you want to go at this as an armchair lawyer, I point to the above, specifically the clawback provisions. If you made money on CK during the depo time, that has to come back to the game and be shared by B1/E1 and game item holders.

Let's just put up BTC and XMR deposit addresses shall we? Expecting to see that ~1k BTC and ~100k XMR that flowed out of the game as a result of depo madness to fly back in no time!

On this point of notification, Risto is aware of his debts and I'm sure many people have contacted him in multiple formats regarding them. I know I personally emailed him multiple times, contacted him on a private BTC forum I am a member of (and got a response saying he was ill and had given up on the game). I even had a user check with him in person at the start of 2018 and got a response that he is not interested.

To conclude, if we get stuck fighting losing battles, it will take away from our focus. We're here to make decisions that work and get a game running.

[boomboom]

To conclude, if we get stuck fighting losing battles, it will take away from our focus. We're here to make decisions that work and get a game running.

All the issues and options are known to everyone now. Time to move forward, some will support Loaf and some won't, but there's no point to further debate IMO, we've all made up our minds.

I was around the NXT community in late 2013 when the infamous ICO happened and 73 lucky bastards got rich overnight from taking a punt on what was then only the 2nd ICO (Mastercoin was the first afaik). So many people were hugely pissed off and jealous and called NXT a scam when it clearly wasn't, the ICO was public and open, just not many people were willing to send a complete stranger money in those days (how times have changed).

The point is enough people were pissed off to start a "NXT with a fair distribution" project as an attempt at a hostile take-over of NXT (i.e. NEM), and it started as a Fork without anything being added just a new 'fair' distribution, and for a while there was huge animosity and angst on both sides, NXT people defending the ICO and slamming NEM as nothing more than a cynical clone from jealous noobies with severe butt hurt who wanted to kill NXT because it wasn't "fair", and NEM countering that NXT was obviously a fraud as blah blah blah ... you get the point.

What we ended up with 4 years later is something very different, NEM went on to become a legitimate crypto project and attracted some serious dev talent interested in PoS consensus and created some unique tech with completely different source code from the original NXT, and most NXT supporters in 2013/14 received free NEM stakes, and now most PoS fans hodl both NXT & NEM and support both projects.

The animosity died when it became clear NEM wasn't going to be just a clone designed to kill NXT, and I think that's what'll happen here eventually with CK legacy and Loaf's game, once it's clear Loaf's version is only connected to CK legacy via the proof of burn airdrop things will look different, and we can all support two versions of CK without too much difficulty if they both exist in a few years time.

What we need most now is more of what Loaf and syksy are doing, game design & brainstorming.

[iluvbitcoins]

Trying to resolve the b1 debts doesn't look possible now, the only option to do that would be confiscating Risto's CK assets and distributing them to b1 creditors, but without Risto involved this won't be cool with  many people, and IMO it's worse than putting the b1 debts in the too hard basket. Who has authority to do this? Some people have already made a good profit from CK, if they also hold b1 debts and would get more, some people will obviously complain that isn't fair because they haven't experienced any CK losses, and didn't feel the CK  'burn'.

Are you saying that distributing Ristos assets to people he ows money to won't be cool with many people but distributing his assets to the game will?

 

---------------

It's so easy to get unanimous support for the "fork".
Just pay the debtors what they're owed.

And don't spin this again on muh 1000BTC
It's not a 1000BTC
When the debtor refuses to repay what he ows, you seize what he has.
This has never been the games debt but the game wants to steal Ristos funds, the assets that belong to his debtors.

The fork will be started on immoral behaviour and I gotta agree with moneromoo, a bit scammy too.
Especially considering CrazyLoaf used to be the most vocal Ristos shill throughout the existance of the game and he constantly tries to avoid his assets being distributed to people he ows money to.

-------------------

A lot of missinformation is constantly being recycled throughout this thread

People are not going to invest in the game because there's a debt?
There is no debt if you pay the debtors

However, you can choose not to pay them and seize the funds for yourself and start the game on a foundation of immorality
What's better for the game?

That people know we honor our agreements?
Or that we act upon them as we see fit?

[boomboom]

Trying to resolve the b1 debts doesn't look possible now, the only option to do that would be confiscating Risto's CK assets and distributing them to b1 creditors, but without Risto involved this won't be cool with  many people, and IMO it's worse than putting the b1 debts in the too hard basket. Who has authority to do this? Some people have already made a good profit from CK, if they also hold b1 debts and would get more, some people will obviously complain that isn't fair because they haven't experienced any CK losses, and didn't feel the CK  'burn'.

Are you saying that distributing Ristos assets to people he ows money to won't be cool with many people but distributing his assets to the game will?

I'm saying we're all free to try anything now, if you suggest a plan to repay risto's debts that includes details to some of the concerns raised earlier, I will certainly consider it, what Loaf is proposing is detailed & possible to achieve, but it's not something I like exactly, but no outcome now is ideal, we're picking the best option, not an idealised 'solution' to a really difficult situation.

How are you proposing to deal with the clawback issue Loaf mentioned?

If you want to claim the debts, let me tell you want anyone else would claim: the funds you got out of the game. That is called a clawback. So if you got 100 BTC out of the game, took out 50 BTC and were given 50 BTC extra by accident, were gifted 5k XMR to make a game token and never did it, or caught Risto's fat-fingering and got 5k XMR out of the game, guess what? Those funds need to be clawed back and shared with all affected parties!

And this focus on the B1/E1 debts ignores all users in the game who now own worthless game items. It doesn't matter if you have B1/E1 or just game currency (M) or even squirrel pelts! All of this is worth zero! You can't even get a few dollars worth of XMR into or out of the game as the only XMR depository (https://deposit.cryptokingdomgold.com) has been down for almost a month!

Just saying 'we should use risto's accounts to pay his debts' isn't helpful without details, you have to get down to brass tacks, the devil is always in the details.

The guy who was owed 50btc but was paid twice, how do you deal with him?

The guy who was paid a 5k XMR bounty but didn't deliver, how do you deal with him?

What about E1 debts?

What about risto's excessive  'gift giving' when likely experiencing mental illness & drug issues?

etc etc

When I say it's not 'cool' what I mean is it's not simple, and not likely to get universal support e.g. if you agree with clawback suggestions then what are you proposing to do if those guys say 'No', they wont return those funds to be divided between all debt holders? It's a mine field man!!

Again, what Loaf is proposing is not going to get universal endorsement, and it's not the optimum outcome by any means, BUT, it's simple, possible to do, and someone is actually trying to do it!

Debt repayment is:
- not so simple when you think of the details
- not possible IF there needs to be clawback and some effected don't send funds back
- nobody is even working towards that goal for +6 months


Being a critic is easy, proposing a workable roadmap is always going to make some people pissed off.

If you agree with debt repayment and clawback, please say so, otherwise please state your proposal, but it needs to cover these difficult issues, and you might find what you put in the too hard basket is just as unpopular with some people as what Loaf is 'doing' i.e. he's actually trying to implement his plan, he's not a critic anymore.


edit, if you favor debt repayment but no clawback, please say so, that might be achievable, but likely to be just as unpopular as what Loaf is doing

[acdc]

Everyone always argues in favor of their bag, their self-interest, just have to accept that as a fact of life.

50 btc & 5k XMR will buy you a great life, those guys will never pay it back without legal force, so clawback is a non starter even if you agreed to it. What option does that leave you? Fuck all sadly

Debt recovery process is a buffet breakfast for CK, people will pick the bits they like and leave the stuff that's unpalatable, but the functional process is pretty straight forward, you recover all possible funds owing to the estate, then you distribute to secured creditors first then unsecured etc etc

Unfortunately, clawback looks justified in many of those cases but nobody is going to harass players to pay back any funds now, we have to be realistic, who wants that shit detail - CK repo man - the end point would be to confiscate the amounts owing from player accounts for those involved in legitimate clawback cases if they refuse to repay, which is a can of new worms in itself.

So the only real issue is whether it's fair to pay b1 & e1 debts because they're easy, when we avoid clawback cases because they're difficult.

The moral high ground is only possible if you follow proper debt recovery processes, including first recovering any funds owed to risto, anything else is a self interested buffet

[boomboom]

The moral high ground is only possible if you follow proper debt recovery processes, including first recovering any funds owed to risto

Yep, that's the situation as I see it too, we either attempt to wind up Risto's accounts properly including clawback where applicable, asset liquidation, and equitable debt repayments to all creditors, or put everything to do with depo mess and Risto in the too hard basket, and concentrate on designing a great crypto Game. Not a good situation to be in, but that's where we are.

edit, disclosure, I am a clawback case too, I received a generous gift from Risto just for posting in the CK thread and asking a mod to send me some of Zec's M (or maybe it was CK asset). In retrospect I would consider that 'gift' dubious, Risto was depressed and almost suicidal then. He wasn't acting rationally when he let people do that.

[Big Naturals]

edit, disclosure, I am a clawback case too, I received a generous gift from Risto just for posting in the CK thread and asking a mod to send me some of Zec's M (or maybe it was CK asset). In retrospect I would consider that 'gift' dubious, Risto was depressed and almost suicidal then. He wasn't acting rationally when he let people do that.

Don't feel bad, risto was depressed in those days but gave away his funds willingly for a purpose - to keep people interested in CK and create some reason for following the CK thread. I really miss that guy, he was basically a good person, just really messed up by family crisis and drugs, and too focused on the fantasy gameplay and religious thinking, ended up dropping him deep in the rabbit hole without a way to get out. Not very likely he will ever come back, but I hope he is OK.

[iluvbitcoins]

Trying to resolve the b1 debts doesn't look possible now, the only option to do that would be confiscating Risto's CK assets and distributing them to b1 creditors, but without Risto involved this won't be cool with  many people, and IMO it's worse than putting the b1 debts in the too hard basket. Who has authority to do this? Some people have already made a good profit from CK, if they also hold b1 debts and would get more, some people will obviously complain that isn't fair because they haven't experienced any CK losses, and didn't feel the CK  'burn'.

Are you saying that distributing Ristos assets to people he ows money to won't be cool with many people but distributing his assets to the game will?

I'm saying we're all free to try anything now, if you suggest a plan to repay risto's debts that includes details to some of the concerns raised earlier, I will certainly consider it, what Loaf is proposing is detailed & possible to achieve, but it's not something I like exactly, but no outcome now is ideal, we're picking the best option, not an idealised 'solution' to a really difficult situation.

How are you proposing to deal with the clawback issue Loaf mentioned?

Simple.
Risto gifted someone 50BTC so we should 'clawback' that money since that's not a good spend?
Hell no.
That's moronic.

Risto is an individual with assets he used however he wanted.
If he gifted someone 50BTC, that's his money. No clawback should be made.

If you want to claim the debts, let me tell you want anyone else would claim: the funds you got out of the game. That is called a clawback. So if you got 100 BTC out of the game, took out 50 BTC and were given 50 BTC extra by accident, were gifted 5k XMR to make a game token and never did it, or caught Risto's fat-fingering and got 5k XMR out of the game, guess what? Those funds need to be clawed back and shared with all affected parties!

And this focus on the B1/E1 debts ignores all users in the game who now own worthless game items. It doesn't matter if you have B1/E1 or just game currency (M) or even squirrel pelts! All of this is worth zero! You can't even get a few dollars worth of XMR into or out of the game as the only XMR depository (https://deposit.cryptokingdomgold.com) has been down for almost a month!

Just saying 'we should use risto's accounts to pay his debts' isn't helpful without details, you have to get down to brass tacks, the devil is always in the details.

The guy who was owed 50btc but was paid twice, how do you deal with him?

The guy who was paid a 5k XMR bounty but didn't deliver, how do you deal with him?

What about E1 debts?

What about risto's excessive  'gift giving' when likely experiencing mental illness & drug issues?

etc etc

When I say it's not 'cool' what I mean is it's not simple, and not likely to get universal support e.g. if you agree with clawback suggestions then what are you proposing to do if those guys say 'No', they wont return those funds to be divided between all debt holders? It's a mine field man!!

Again, what Loaf is proposing is not going to get universal endorsement, and it's not the optimum outcome by any means, BUT, it's simple, possible to do, and someone is actually trying to do it!

Debt repayment is:
- not so simple when you think of the details
- not possible IF there needs to be clawback and some effected don't send funds back
- nobody is even working towards that goal for +6 months


Being a critic is easy, proposing a workable roadmap is always going to make some people pissed off.

If you agree with debt repayment and clawback, please say so, otherwise please state your proposal, but it needs to cover these difficult issues, and you might find what you put in the too hard basket is just as unpopular with some people as what Loaf is 'doing' i.e. he's actually trying to implement his plan, he's not a critic anymore.


edit, if you favor debt repayment but no clawback, please say so, that might be achievable, but likely to be just as unpopular as what Loaf is doing

You don't deal with them.
How do you deal with someone who got 50BTC? He already got them.
Risto sent it to him.
Not me, not you, not 'the game', not the B1, E1 holders.
Risto did.

The clawback is morally wrong.
It means you're supposed to lose money just by playing, no profit can be obtained in the game and must be distributed among B1/E1 holders, but they won't be able to profit either since if they made profit they'd suffer the clawback.

ment is:
- not so simple when you think of the details
- not possible IF there needs to be clawback and some effected don't send funds back
- nobody is even working towards that goal for +6 months

There doesn't have to be a clawback.

If you made money on CK during the depo time, that has to come back to the game and be shared by B1/E1 and game item holders.

No it doesn't.

-----------

What I'm saying isn't complicated as some say, it's rather simple.
Extremely simple.

You have B1 and E1 debts.
Risto has 'M'.

Distribute 'M' to B1&E1 holders.
Sell his assets.
Distribute to B1&E1 holders.
That's it.
Simple as that.

[boomboom]

What I'm saying isn't complicated as some say, it's rather simple.
Extremely simple.

You have B1 and E1 debts.
Risto has 'M'.

Distribute 'M' to B1&E1 holders.
Sell his assets.
Distribute to B1&E1 holders.
That's it.
Simple as that.

If somebody tries to implement what you say above I will wish them well and will follow with interest. At the moment the only people attempting anything at all in the CK world are Loaf and his dev team, with great input from syksy, and I'm going to support that effort because there isn't any other option to support. I could say I agree with your opinion in principle, but unless someone is trying to make it happen, there's nothing to support in a practical sense. I don't see this as an either/or situation, I believe what Loaf is trying to do will become an obvious fork eventually, and legacy CK will still be there at the end exactly as it is now, and Loaf's version will be a new game with different game design and economic engine.

[PrincessChe]

Old residents think here that rpietila will be "madman" and will lose all the kriptovy $ $ to avoid a divorce with his ex-wife? It is difficult for me to believe that all these years he intentionally destroyed the reputation, without having a good reason.

[Nashamoto]

Old residents think here that rpietila will be "madman" and will lose all the kriptovy $ $ to avoid a divorce with his ex-wife? It is difficult for me to believe that all these years he intentionally destroyed the reputation, without having a good reason.

If risto has a history mental illness he could destroy his life without there being any conspiracy to avoid divorce settlement. Add drugs and alcohol and bad people around him, then the downward spiral is easy to explain.