Zpool.ca: Does it take 20-22% fee?

[Storx]

I am just trying to clear up some things im still confused on.. i have been mining going on 2 weeks now.. since switching to zpool.ca the profits on any calculator is about 20-22% more than my actual earning reported on zpool.ca wallet... is this really a thing or is every calculator out there wrong? because i was under the impression the pool fee was only 2%

[1714942582]

1714942582

[1714942582]

1714942582

[felixbrucker]

I am just trying to clear up some things im still confused on.. i have been mining going on 2 weeks now.. since switching to zpool.ca the profits on any calculator is about 20-22% more than my actual earning reported on zpool.ca wallet... is this really a thing or is every calculator out there wrong? because i was under the impression the pool fee was only 2%

yes, pool is stealing ~20%

see old ANN thread, last 10-20 pages or so

[antantti]

Calculators are only calculators, they can be wrong too.

You have multiple cards right? Do a test, point one to yiimp.ccminer.org and second to zpool.ca, both to skein ports, add c=DGB to get payouts in DGB. Let them run and monitor earnings. Which pool wins? I would be very interested to see the results.

Zpool.ca lost the trust of senior miners somewhere in second half of 2016, I hope they have finally fixed those problems.

see old ANN thread, last 10-20 pages or so

To make it even easier:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1260863.2780

[sp_]

The stats are correct but the return is almost always lower on zpool than on the other pools that doesn't autoexchange.

ex:

skein

zpool.ca 24hour    payout per ghash: 0.00449BTC
yiimp.ccminer.org payout per ghash:  0.0062BTC

+38% if you mine on yiimp and exchange your coins yourself.

But zpool is more profitable than the nicehashminer..

[Liquid71]

I can't believe people still mine on that pool and many of them know about the pool is stealing, it's just insane

yiimp pools are most trustworthy, I trust supernova, and nicehash pays per share. Rest are a gamble, zpool is the greediest of the pools that cheat and steal which is why it's so obvious

[minerx117]

The stats are correct but the return is almost always lower on zpool than on the other pools that doesn't autoexchange.

ex:

skein

zpool.ca 24hour    payout per ghash: 0.00449BTC
yiimp.ccminer.org payout per ghash:  0.0062BTC

+38% if you mine on yiimp and exchange your coins yourself.

But zpool is more profitable than the nicehashminer..

Fact i actually test (not speculate)

i've test with multiple rigs had 1070x4 on nicehashminer / another 1070x4 and zpool nemosmier  /and another 4x1070 on nemosminer Mining Pool Hub  

the zpool version is making more every week so i don't believe there is any theft going on my payouts seem to always be correct..

ex:

blake2s

zpool.ca 24hour    payout per ghash: 1.17497BTC  
yiimp.ccminer.org payout per ghash:  0.41053BTC

+186.2  if you mine on zpool

zpool blake2s and lyra2v2 are 2x the profitability compared to  yiimp.ccminer.org....

[Liquid71]

C
Zpool.ca lost the trust of senior miners somewhere in second half of 2016, I hope they have finally fixed those problems.

see old ANN thread, last 10-20 pages or so

To make it even easier:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1260863.2780

You sure it was a problem, I was under the impression it was a feature of the pool developed by and for zpool owners

[sp_]

blake2s

zpool.ca 24hour    payout per ghash: 1.17497BTC  
yiimp.ccminer.org payout per ghash:  0.41053BTC

zpool blake2s and lyra2v2 are 2x the profitability compared to  yiimp.ccminer.org

Because yiimp has fewer coins.
If you mine verge/blake2s directly on another pool you earn 20-30% more.

[sp_]

Here is more prof:

After 11 days I finally found a LBRY block:

http://zpool.ca/?address=1CTiNJyoUmbdMRACtteRWXhGqtSETYd6Vd

341 LBC is converted to 0.035290 btc

If I had sold them on poloniex. I would have got 0.048081 (+36%)

[antantti]

You sure it was a problem, I was under the impression it was a feature of the pool developed by and for zpool owners

Tried to be polite, feature it was.

Wonder if someone ever found those coins or was it just classic ...aaaaand it's gone situation?

[joblo]

Here is more prof:

After 11 days I finally found a LBRY block:

http://zpool.ca/?address=1CTiNJyoUmbdMRACtteRWXhGqtSETYd6Vd

341 LBC is converted to 0.035290 btc

If I had sold them on poloniex. I would have got 0.048081 (+36%)

Keep an eye on that block, see how much you get after exchange. If the problem still exists it will be around .028
assuming no drastic price change.

[sp_]

Here is more prof:

After 11 days I finally found a LBRY block:

http://zpool.ca/?address=1CTiNJyoUmbdMRACtteRWXhGqtSETYd6Vd

341 LBC is converted to 0.035290 btc

If I had sold them on poloniex. I would have got 0.048081 (+36%)

Keep an eye on that block, see how much you get after exchange. If the problem still exists it will be around .028
assuming no drastic price change.

I think they have "fixed" the bug  now by displaying 30% less than the market price in the expected earnings. Previously the 30% dissapeared up on exchange. I remember I tried to mine the coin directly by adding a LBRY adress and c=LBC in the password, but it didn't help. 30% was gone.

I don't like to be fucked by the corrupt pools do you?

[joblo]

Keep an eye on that block, see how much you get after exchange. If the problem still exists it will be around .028
assuming no drastic price change.

I think they have "fixed" the bug  now by displaying 30% less than the market price in the expected earnings. Previously the 30% dissapeared up on exchange. I remember I tried to mine the coin directly by adding a LBRY adress and c=LBC in the password, but it didn't help. 30% was gone.

Yes eliminating the exchange makes it more obvious.

If you followed the block from the begining you should be able to confirm:

1. you received the expected percentage of the block

2. the amount of LBRY is the correct percentage and BTC value are correct

3. the BTC value is correct after after exchange after accounting for price fluctuations

In the past the value was correct up to the point of exchange but the exchanged value was always
20% lower than expected. The loss coincides with the status change to "cleared".

[sp_]

They have been scamming the miners for years, but still there are 4715 active rigs/miners connected.

PROS:

- The internet connection is fast and stable
- Many new coins, and little downtime on the wallets.
- Many algos to choose from.
- Autopayment in many currencies

CONS:

- 20% fee or more
- Little Support, hard to get coins that are "lost"

[antantti]

They have been scamming the miners for years, but still there are 4715 active rigs/miners connected.

Only newbies and botnets but hey, it is easy and convenient!

Funny, when one miner dev tried this "what you see is what you get" approach there was almost instant shitstorm. Dev earning too much to my liking? Now, when that same happens(?) on pool, who cares?

[minerx117]

The stats are correct but the return is almost always lower on zpool than on the other pools that doesn't autoexchange.

ex:

skein

zpool.ca 24hour    payout per ghash: 0.00449BTC
yiimp.ccminer.org payout per ghash:  0.0062BTC

+38% if you mine on yiimp and exchange your coins yourself.

But zpool is more profitable than the nicehashminer..

so you "say" its stealing 20% profit.. and still it outperforming nicehashminer must be doing something right...

[felixbrucker]

The stats are correct but the return is almost always lower on zpool than on the other pools that doesn't autoexchange.

ex:

skein

zpool.ca 24hour    payout per ghash: 0.00449BTC
yiimp.ccminer.org payout per ghash:  0.0062BTC

+38% if you mine on yiimp and exchange your coins yourself.

But zpool is more profitable than the nicehashminer..

so you "say" its stealing 20% profit.. and still it outperforming nicehashminer must be doing something right...

you cant compare a marketplace with a pool

what you can compare:

mine coin X on zpool and another pool with same hashrates, dont exchange to anything.
zpool payout coin amount for a given timeframe will be ~20% less than from other pool

[joblo]

The stats are correct but the return is almost always lower on zpool than on the other pools that doesn't autoexchange.

ex:

skein

zpool.ca 24hour    payout per ghash: 0.00449BTC
yiimp.ccminer.org payout per ghash:  0.0062BTC

+38% if you mine on yiimp and exchange your coins yourself.

But zpool is more profitable than the nicehashminer..

so you "say" its stealing 20% profit.. and still it outperforming nicehashminer must be doing something right...

you cant compare a marketplace with a pool

what you can compare:

mine coin X on zpool and another pool with same hashrates, dont exchange to anything.
zpool payout coin amount for a given timeframe will be ~20% less than from other pool

That's not a valid comparison either. Luck can easily cause a large variance, even between different blocks
in the same pool.

You just need to follow a block until it is credited to your balance, verify the credited share percentage matches
your hash rate, the amount of coin matches the percentage of a block, the BTC value matches the exchange rate, etc,
then magically see your balance is credited 20% less than the last value prior to exchange.

If you get paid in the mined coin it's even clearer as it eliminates any exchange fluctuation.

Those defending zpool should just do their own test. I've done my own tests (not recently) and analyzed the data
from two other users who posted detailed information of their tests. Simply comparing with other pools,
and especially Nicehash which doesn't mine coins directly, means nothing.

[antantti]

If you get paid in the mined coin it's even clearer as it eliminates any exchange fluctuation.

I actually tried recently, no matter what I put on that c= field, always auto exchanged to btc. Block -2% matched, after that, who knows.

[felixbrucker]

That's not a valid comparison either. Luck can easily cause a large variance, even between different blocks
in the same pool.

You just need to follow a block until it is credited to your balance, verify the credited share percentage matches
your hash rate, the amount of coin matches the percentage of a block, the BTC value matches the exchange rate, etc,
then magically see your balance is credited 20% less than the last value prior to exchange.

If you get paid in the mined coin it's even clearer as it eliminates any exchange fluctuation.

Those defending zpool should just do their own test. I've done my own tests (not recently) and analyzed the data
from two other users who posted detailed information of their tests. Simply comparing with other pools,
and especially Nicehash which doesn't mine coins directly, means nothing.

this is a valid point, i assumed a negligible variance as i assumed the user has a) large hashrate and/or b) uses an algo and coin which finds blocks on both pools every x minutes and thus reduces variance over a larger timeframe significantly

your approach is by far easier though and doesnt require another pool

[philipma1957]

Calculators are only calculators, they can be wrong too.

You have multiple cards right? Do a test, point one to yiimp.ccminer.org and second to zpool.ca, both to skein ports, add c=DGB to get payouts in DGB. Let them run and monitor earnings. Which pool wins? I would be very interested to see the results.

Zpool.ca lost the trust of senior miners somewhere in second half of 2016, I hope they have finally fixed those problems.

see old ANN thread, last 10-20 pages or so

To make it even easier:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1260863.2780

so


-o stratum+tcp://yiimp.ccminer.org:4933 -u DLGanQK3j9VzFhqVYKiQmr6Z5SATuAJFMq -p rig1,c= DGB

should work?

[antantti]

so

-o stratum+tcp://yiimp.ccminer.org:4933 -u DLGanQK3j9VzFhqVYKiQmr6Z5SATuAJFMq -p rig1,c= DGB

should work?

Yep, backed by epsylon3/ tpruvot. Autoexchange is disabled on that pool.

Zpool.ca is a fork of yiimp, just autoexchange enabled. Everything goes well as long as there are no questions asked.

Let them run and post your results.

[antantti]

zpool blake2s and lyra2v2 are 2x the profitability compared to  yiimp.ccminer.org....

: )

Best Regards
Nemo

Nemo, you are doing great work to level new nvidia miners profitability. But you still have so much to learn... )))

[minerx117]

zpool blake2s and lyra2v2 are 2x the profitability compared to  yiimp.ccminer.org....

: )

Best Regards
Nemo

Nemo, you are doing great work to level new nvidia miners profitability. But you still have so much to learn... )))

always learning my friend : )

[sp_]

Here is more prof:

After 11 days I finally found a LBRY block:

http://zpool.ca/?address=1CTiNJyoUmbdMRACtteRWXhGqtSETYd6Vd

341 LBC is converted to 0.035290 btc

If I had sold them on poloniex. I would have got 0.048081 (+36%)

Keep an eye on that block, see how much you get after exchange. If the problem still exists it will be around .028
assuming no drastic price change.

'

The block is cleared after 12 hours and I ended up getting 0.03443614 btc. I had mined on yiimp, and sold the coins myself I would have got 40% more BTC.

[jkminkov]

well, you are wrong.

I took poloniex graph price for 2 weeks behind and looked last 11 days average price(12:00h), it was 0,00010098*, you got 0,00010349

* - that price you'd get if you had mined @ yiimp and sell all @ 12:00h

zpool saves you those 10 minutes and creates orders instead of you

probably you should look what TTF says before choosing what to mine

[sp_]

well, you are wrong.
I took poloniex graph price for 2 weeks behind and looked last 11 days average price(12:00h), it was 0,00010098*, you got 0,00010349
* - that price you'd get if you had mined @ yiimp and sell all @ 12:00h
zpool saves you those 10 minutes and creates orders instead of you
probably you should look what TTF says before choosing what to mine

Why do you use the 11 days average average rate? When a block is found I expect the pool to exchange with todays rate right after the block has been confirmed. If I have waited 11 days on yiimp, I still could get todays exchange rate wich is 40% above the payout that I got. zpool's excangerate seems to be 20-30% lower than the market rate always..

[jkminkov]

unfortunately yiimp is down, so I can't tell you how many blocks they find daily, but it was a lot, so you were mining solo, and worst you can do with mining solo is to let a script selling your coins, at least you could use a LBR address for payout...

[sp_]

Hash has been added to zpool.ca and the problem is still there. 7 blocks found in the last 12 hours and all of them have a significant lower exchange rate than the marketprice on the exchange.

http://zpool.ca/?address=1CTiNJyoUmbdMRACtteRWXhGqtSETYd6Vd

Look at the last block.

Price on zpool 1 LBC:     0.00009829
Price on poloniex 1 LBC: 0.00011618 (+16%)

[zer0k]

Hash has been added to zpool.ca and the problem is still there. 7 blocks found in the last 12 hours and all of them have a significant lower exchange rate than the marketprice on the exchange.

http://zpool.ca/?address=1CTiNJyoUmbdMRACtteRWXhGqtSETYd6Vd

Look at the last block.

Price on zpool 1 LBC:     0.00009829
Price on poloniex 1 LBC: 0.00011618 (+16%)

The questions I have on my mind are...

When does zpool exchange?
Is it right after the block is found?
I'm guessing they just use the exact price at the time to get the quikest trade possible.

Which exchange do they use for LBRY?
How does the price compare to Poloniex?

Slightly unrelated but why did you start cranking out LBRY?
And why is the reject rate so high?

[felixbrucker]

all the exchange stuff doesn't really matter, you lose 20% as well if you don't exchange at all

[Akkim]

hey guys..... Make a decision .... xDD
Lose 20% only for conversion?
Or even without converting the coin?
Why do some earn more, and others less using the same system ??
Let me understand well .... sorry but I do not speak English, I think I'm not the only one, for all visitors who read this topic, thank you.

[ilitirit]

I can't comment about the supposed 20%, but can someone explain why their API sometimes shows your totals suddenly decrease for no apparent reason?

eg.

Code:

{"currency": "BTC", ..., "unpaid": 0.00507565, "paid": 0.00000000, "total": 0.00507565, ... }
{"currency": "BTC", ..., "unpaid": 0.00508766, "paid": 0.00000000, "total": 0.00508766, ... }
{"currency": "BTC", ..., "unpaid": 0.00509738, "paid": 0.00000000, "total": 0.00509738, ... }  <----------
{"currency": "BTC", ..., "unpaid": 0.00485334, "paid": 0.00000000, "total": 0.00485334, ... }  <----------
{"currency": "BTC", ..., "unpaid": 0.00485701, "paid": 0.00000000, "total": 0.00485701, ... }

Those were captured several minutes apart in sequential order.  Why did the total decrease?  Is it because of fees, or...?

[jwarren81]

total = paid + unpaid
unpaid = balance + unsold

unsold fluctuates with market values until sold, this is why the total fluctuates.

I can't comment about the supposed 20%, but can someone explain why their API sometimes shows your totals suddenly decrease for no apparent reason?

eg.

Code:

{"currency": "BTC", ..., "unpaid": 0.00507565, "paid": 0.00000000, "total": 0.00507565, ... }
{"currency": "BTC", ..., "unpaid": 0.00508766, "paid": 0.00000000, "total": 0.00508766, ... }
{"currency": "BTC", ..., "unpaid": 0.00509738, "paid": 0.00000000, "total": 0.00509738, ... }  <----------
{"currency": "BTC", ..., "unpaid": 0.00485334, "paid": 0.00000000, "total": 0.00485334, ... }  <----------
{"currency": "BTC", ..., "unpaid": 0.00485701, "paid": 0.00000000, "total": 0.00485701, ... }

Those were captured several minutes apart in sequential order.  Why did the total decrease?  Is it because of fees, or...?

[PolarFiasco]

Did anyone do any testing of this or is still testing? 
 

[jwarren81]

If you only want to mine a single coin and want to get paid in that coin, go with yiimp.  If you want to try and ride the wave of multiple coins to increase your payout, zpool is the best I have found regardless of what is said here.  I am happy with the daily payouts I get with zpool and I don't have to manage it.  They at least match, but usually beat, estimated payouts for mining a single coin.  When I multi coin mine on yiimp I had to create 10+ wallets on various exchanges, then wait for enough coins to amass to be able to sell them.  Then transferring the BTC back incurred another cost.  All of this is handled in bulk by zpool which reduces cost and time.  To duplicate the number of coins available to mine and manage the exchanging of those coins to BTC, requires a significant amount of time without zpool, in order to get the same payout (in my experience).

But in the end, it's your choice what to do.  As my operation gets larger and I dedicate additional time to it, I may move to yiimp and hold coins longer to catch the rises in the market better.  But currently I don't have the time, so zpool provides a very consistent income that I don't have to manage.

Did anyone do any testing of this or is still testing? 
 

[PolarFiasco]

If you only want to mine a single coin and want to get paid in that coin, go with yiimp.  If you want to try and ride the wave of multiple coins to increase your payout, zpool is the best I have found regardless of what is said here.  I am happy with the daily payouts I get with zpool and I don't have to manage it.  They at least match, but usually beat, estimated payouts for mining a single coin.  When I multi coin mine on yiimp I had to create 10+ wallets on various exchanges, then wait for enough coins to amass to be able to sell them.  Then transferring the BTC back incurred another cost.  All of this is handled in bulk by zpool which reduces cost and time.  To duplicate the number of coins available to mine and manage the exchanging of those coins to BTC, requires a significant amount of time without zpool, in order to get the same payout (in my experience).

But in the end, it's your choice what to do.  As my operation gets larger and I dedicate additional time to it, I may move to yiimp and hold coins longer to catch the rises in the market better.  But currently I don't have the time, so zpool provides a very consistent income that I don't have to manage.

Did anyone do any testing of this or is still testing?  
 

I hear you on the convenience, but I just don't like shady shit.  Be upfront with the fees/costs.  Mining Pool Hub has auto-exchange and can mine multiple coins. They are upfront on exchange fees.

I like the stats and PPS on zpool better since I only have limited mining time each day.  If their info is correct, their profitability seems higher than other pools without much of a reason as to why they are higher that I can tell.

I don't want to mine there for a few days expecting X and getting Y because they are not upfront about exchange fees and I am suckered in with the higher profitability numbers that is why I wanted to see if anyone had given it a try.  

[Jaerin]

The problem with any autoexchange is that you don't get to decide when the coins get sold.  You may have mined them up when the coin was at its peak, but there is no guarantee that the coins get sold instantly after being mined.  The way that altcoin markets move I'd expect there to be a lot of variability as to when the coins actually get sold.  Having them using a trailing average price isn't that unreasonable either.  If you want to be able to execute the best price trades then you need to not use auto-exchange.  Even MPH and other pools that give fee rates for exchange likely don't include price fluctuations.

You are paying for convenience of not having to deal with multiple exchanges and still be able to play some variable algo mining to try and take advantage of those fluctuations.  In fact if it were my exchange and the price tanked on a coin, I might intentionally pay out a perceived value of the coins and try and maximize the profits later.  This might also be why you have such a gap between how much value you have unpaid and what is confirmed.  Maybe I'm wrong, but none of this seems "shady" to me, just not fully transparent.  Unless the system showed you exactly what price you supposedly mined up the coins at versus the price of when those coins were actually sold on the exchange would you know the gap.  The talk here seems to be more about backseat trading when you have the system set on autopilot.  If you think you can trade it better then mine up the coins directly and sell them yourself, that's the only way you can guarantee the prices.

As far as I've seen the payout on zpool.ca is pretty close to what I would expect for my hashrates, but instead of relying on one coin I can mine 15+ depending on the fluctuations.

[PolarFiasco]

The problem with any autoexchange is that you don't get to decide when the coins get sold.  You may have mined them up when the coin was at its peak, but there is no guarantee that the coins get sold instantly after being mined.  The way that altcoin markets move I'd expect there to be a lot of variability as to when the coins actually get sold.  Having them using a trailing average price isn't that unreasonable either.  If you want to be able to execute the best price trades then you need to not use auto-exchange.  Even MPH and other pools that give fee rates for exchange likely don't include price fluctuations.

You are paying for convenience of not having to deal with multiple exchanges and still be able to play some variable algo mining to try and take advantage of those fluctuations.  In fact if it were my exchange and the price tanked on a coin, I might intentionally pay out a perceived value of the coins and try and maximize the profits later.  This might also be why you have such a gap between how much value you have unpaid and what is confirmed.  Maybe I'm wrong, but none of this seems "shady" to me, just not fully transparent.  Unless the system showed you exactly what price you supposedly mined up the coins at versus the price of when those coins were actually sold on the exchange would you know the gap.  The talk here seems to be more about backseat trading when you have the system set on autopilot.  If you think you can trade it better then mine up the coins directly and sell them yourself, that's the only way you can guarantee the prices.

As far as I've seen the payout on zpool.ca is pretty close to what I would expect for my hashrates, but instead of relying on one coin I can mine 15+ depending on the fluctuations.

I am cool with exchange rate volatility and pool op making some money of the swings for the convenience, but why not publish what the coins are/were being exchanged at?  And on the "shady" part, since this info was not provided, I am concerned about exchanging the coins for a higher value and pool op keeping the difference.  If that is being done and not being disclosed...that is shady.  SP's example above seems to show this shadiness which concerns me.  '

If I try zpool then I guess I need to watch the exchanges to see if I am getting ripped off...but then again if I am watching the exchanges I might as well trade the coins myself, so I guess there is no point to using zpool after all.  Way to go zpool, shady or not, you just lost a miner.

[Jaerin]

The problem with any autoexchange is that you don't get to decide when the coins get sold.  You may have mined them up when the coin was at its peak, but there is no guarantee that the coins get sold instantly after being mined.  The way that altcoin markets move I'd expect there to be a lot of variability as to when the coins actually get sold.  Having them using a trailing average price isn't that unreasonable either.  If you want to be able to execute the best price trades then you need to not use auto-exchange.  Even MPH and other pools that give fee rates for exchange likely don't include price fluctuations.

You are paying for convenience of not having to deal with multiple exchanges and still be able to play some variable algo mining to try and take advantage of those fluctuations.  In fact if it were my exchange and the price tanked on a coin, I might intentionally pay out a perceived value of the coins and try and maximize the profits later.  This might also be why you have such a gap between how much value you have unpaid and what is confirmed.  Maybe I'm wrong, but none of this seems "shady" to me, just not fully transparent.  Unless the system showed you exactly what price you supposedly mined up the coins at versus the price of when those coins were actually sold on the exchange would you know the gap.  The talk here seems to be more about backseat trading when you have the system set on autopilot.  If you think you can trade it better then mine up the coins directly and sell them yourself, that's the only way you can guarantee the prices.

As far as I've seen the payout on zpool.ca is pretty close to what I would expect for my hashrates, but instead of relying on one coin I can mine 15+ depending on the fluctuations.

I am cool with exchange rate volatility and pool op making some money of the swings for the convenience, but why not publish what the coins are/were being exchanged at?  And on the "shady" part, since this info was not provided, I am concerned about exchanging the coins for a higher value and pool op keeping the difference.  If that is being done and not being disclosed...that is shady.  SP's example above seems to show this shadiness which concerns me.  '

If I try zpool then I guess I need to watch the exchanges to see if I am getting ripped off...but then again if I am watching the exchanges I might as well trade the coins myself, so I guess there is no point to using zpool after all.  Way to go zpool, shady or not, you just lost a miner.

He didn't though.  All he showed was that 4 hours after the coins were found they were  exchanged for .035 and that there was a point on the Poloniex exchange that they could have been sold for more potentially.  I'm not suspecting his evidence, but neither have timestamps so how do you really know that peak was when the coins were mined up.  How long of a delay would you expect there to be to move the coins from the pool to the exchanges?  With autoexchange you don't get to decide when the coins get sold.  I would hope there is some logic that wouldn't sell the coins immediately after a dip or something like that, but again that is up to the algorithm to decide when the coins get sold.  It could have just as easily skyrocketed and sold for more than when coins were mined and then you'd see a bonus.  The problem seems to be that you don't get to see exactly when the coins you mined got sold and for how much.  I don't know of any pool with auto-exchange that gives that detailed information.  Nor would I necessarily expect it would because it would likely just generate tons of people complaining that the system sold their coins at the wrong time and it should have waited, or sold sooner.  If you don't like it then grab the Yiimp code and rewrite it such that each user can control when the coins go to the exchange to get converted?

As you said if you're watching the exchanges and want to maximize your profits on the trading side then auto-exchange pools are likely not for you.  I've got a bunch of coins "sitting on the exchange" at MPH that I have no clue when they will get converted to my currency of choice.  This isn't something that is exclusive to Zpool.

[felixbrucker]

the point is that it also happens if you don't exchange, and this is exclusive to zpool. I have not seen another pool stealing 20%, yet.

[Jaerin]

I think people also have to realize is how much is going to BTC transfer fees.  They are close to $10 per transfer at this point and the minimum payout every 12 hours is .01 BTC or about $25-29 dollars.  That's upto 30-40% of your earnings if you get your payout in BTC.  This alone could be the cause of people's complaints and not really the pools fault.  This would be true of any pool that pays out in BTC.

Perhaps an option to allow for more delayed payouts in BTC would allow for better returns.

[zer0k]

I think people also have to realize is how much is going to BTC transfer fees.  They are close to $10 per transfer at this point and the minimum payout every 12 hours is .01 BTC or about $25-29 dollars.  That's upto 30-40% of your earnings if you get your payout in BTC.  This alone could be the cause of people's complaints and not really the pools fault.  This would be true of any pool that pays out in BTC.

Perhaps an option to allow for more delayed payouts in BTC would allow for better returns.

I don't think it works quite like you're thinking...

Here is the payout transaction - https://btc.blockr.io/tx/info/ac4c97f0965ac1d3228d8c0b0a3508cca6b69fccc6aae88c406823e4f99e1a6b

BTC paid out - 4.02472877
Fee paid is   - 0.01963269

So that fee is ~$53 and I assume it is spread across all miners that you can see that got paid.

Although it would be great if Crackfoo could confirm

[Jaerin]

I'd hope that it is all together or something, but it seems like no matter where I mine I'm getting about the same returns regardless of what coin I'm mining for my hashrate or not.

Having 7-1080's and 1-1080Ti, it seems like all I can get is about $60/day whether I mine pure Skein DGB, multi-algo on zpool, or something else.  MPH doesn't seem to offer much different and take a lot longer to move things between the transfer to exchange, on exchange, and moving back to my wallet on MPH.  Not to mention MPH seems a lot harder to know what returns you can expect being spread across so many different coins and exchanging.  Only real benefit there seems to be that I can convert it to ETH which will likely gain more than BTC will in the near future anyways.  Hell I got a bunch of maxcoin on MPH since I didn't realize that Keccak only mined that up and there were no exchanges to trade it on.  $60/day is fine really, but I expected that I might be able to get more.

[crackfoo]

I think people also have to realize is how much is going to BTC transfer fees.  They are close to $10 per transfer at this point and the minimum payout every 12 hours is .01 BTC or about $25-29 dollars.  That's upto 30-40% of your earnings if you get your payout in BTC.  This alone could be the cause of people's complaints and not really the pools fault.  This would be true of any pool that pays out in BTC.

Perhaps an option to allow for more delayed payouts in BTC would allow for better returns.

I don't think it works quite like you're thinking...

Here is the payout transaction - https://btc.blockr.io/tx/info/ac4c97f0965ac1d3228d8c0b0a3508cca6b69fccc6aae88c406823e4f99e1a6b

BTC paid out - 4.02472877
Fee paid is   - 0.01963269

So that fee is ~$53 and I assume it is spread across all miners that you can see that got paid.

Although it would be great if Crackfoo could confirm

I pay the tx's fee's, they're not spread across miners balances.

[natminer]

I'm not convinced that there isn't a problem either. I love the concept of zpool but every time I've tested it I get really disappointed.

I tested it yesterday for 12 hours, pointed 2 rigs to it. The estimated earnings should have been close to $25-30 total for those 12 hours. I stopped last night and waited until today to confirm (once all earnings cleared as last night some were still immature or on the exchange) and my unpaid balance today is only worth around $12, so less than half of what estimates were.

Pool was seeing my correct hashrates each time I checked yesterday, the coins it was mining were in the range for the payout I expected and as far as I know none of those coins tanked before being exchanged.

[Jaerin]

Well this is what I've been getting the little less than a week from mining on zpool.  There were some minor periods of missing data, but overall this is pretty indicative of what I've been earning.

This is all queried from the site on a 5 minute basis.  The beginning was when Bitcore was having its huge surge at the beginning of the week and therefore I was getting much better returns and quicker payouts.  Since then the markets have cooled and earnings are slowing down, but as you can see it is all pretty consistent with mine.  Note that this is using Multipoolminer only mining on Zpool with just about every algorithm enabled.  So it is switching algorithms up to once a minute depending on profitability.

This is the earnings from 7  - 1080's and 1 - 1080Ti running 24/7 at 80% TDP

Maybe I could earn more somewhere else mining one particular coin, but this is very straight-forward and easy to do.  Chart was created on Google sheets from an imported CSV file.  If someone has better suggestions on charting or data that they would like to see from this presented in a different way then by all means let me know.

Everything is on the Left Axis except the Green Total payout line is referring to the Right Axis.  The Total gain line at the bottom is the 5 minute change since the last gain entry.  Everything is in BTC

[Jaerin]

I stand corrected.   I did my own calculations and there is most DEFINITELY a 20% cut being taken.

My evidence

Feel free to take a look at all the work and check it for errors:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18G3-tVapwWzVAp83SExJpZlLAmahLDoNwQBIETDPeeU/edit?usp=sharing


Image of wallet payouts:
https://i.imgur.com/zrvXM9A.png

As you can see in every single case EXCEPT SIGT I was paid no more than 94% of the LOWEST market price for the last 24 hours.  



So as you can see even if all coins were sold at LOWEST market value for the last 24 hours I was paid on average 84% of that amount.  Every coin has moved to the exchange and cleared and is sitting in my unpaid value.  With the exception of SIGT which had a price range of over 300% change throughout the day the value of every coin sold was LESS than the lowest market price.

There are screenshots of every exchange that I used for pricing data showing that it is for the last 24 hours and it includes my system clock in the lower right showing both date and time I checked the data.

As I said mine on Zpool if you want, but just be aware of the truth in payouts.   Either Crackfoo's exchange script dumps well below the lowest market price for the day, we pay a HUGE exchange fee, or there is a cut being taken above the 2-2.5% fees advertised.   I have nothing to gain by presenting the information.  My goal is only to inform.

[natminer]

Thanks for doing all those calculations. I've had terrible payouts when using zpool as well.

[jmayniac]

I stand corrected.   I did my own calculations and there is most DEFINITELY a 20% cut being taken.

My evidence

Feel free to take a look at all the work and check it for errors:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18G3-tVapwWzVAp83SExJpZlLAmahLDoNwQBIETDPeeU/edit?usp=sharing


Image of wallet payouts:
https://i.imgur.com/zrvXM9A.png

As you can see in every single case EXCEPT SIGT I was paid no more than 94% of the LOWEST market price for the last 24 hours.  

https://i.imgur.com/EPaf5ew.png

So as you can see even if all coins were sold at LOWEST market value for the last 24 hours I was paid on average 84% of that amount.  Every coin has moved to the exchange and cleared and is sitting in my unpaid value.  With the exception of SIGT which had a price range of over 300% change throughout the day the value of every coin sold was LESS than the lowest market price.

There are screenshots of every exchange that I used for pricing data showing that it is for the last 24 hours and it includes my system clock in the lower right showing both date and time I checked the data.

As I said mine on Zpool if you want, but just be aware of the truth in payouts.   Either Crackfoo's exchange script dumps well below the lowest market price for the day, we pay a HUGE exchange fee, or there is a cut being taken above the 2-2.5% fees advertised.   I have nothing to gain by presenting the information.  My goal is only to inform.

Where do you mine now?  I don't know if he is actually doing something, or if it is a glitch, but I'm still doing pretty good.  If there was a different one that did exchange to BTC, then I might jump to that.

[Jaerin]

It's not a glitch...you can calculate the same thing pretty easily and see its the same for all coins.   I'm mining SIGT directly on Suprnova right now, but when that dies down I'll likely use Multipoolminer on Yiimp or the like and to the exchanges myself.

[AK74XXX]

Aha, as I c the part of story gone public I've got much more to say about coins theft & exchange cheating, I made smaller investigation & found (u all just search the zpool topic if crackfoo hadn't cleared the evidence, but there's much of it) exchange issues raised periodically, but attracting almost no attention. There are also several ShapeShift references, and payouts are bulk processed, add together 2 & 2, guys. U can also contact ShapeShift pretending pool owner & ask for ur % on bulk exchange I also have some questions about merged mining, I'm almost sure the pool's merged mining coins for crackfoo using miners' hashrate.

Got many screens & other evidence. I plan to make the most of the story as crackfoo'd stolen my money, up 2 legal enforcement. I'm reported the pool's servers r already found, but not crackfoo, though I haven't contacted authorities yet. But I will when I get the exact servers location & provider name.

I definitely don't post all only here not 2 be lost among others', start new topic. I also send 2 all main crypto-press. U guys, please, either send me all your cases & evidence in short 2 be added 2 my story (links r nice if pointed 2 full but short description with evidence if any), or leave as is. Anyway, I post the story here 2, and u can join the claim upon consideration.

[crackfoo]

Aha, as I c the part of story gone public I've got much more to say about coins theft & exchange cheating, I made smaller investigation & found (u all just search the topic if crackfoo hadn't cleared the evidence, but there's much of it) exchange issues raised periodically, but attracting almost no attention. There are also several ShapeShift references, and payouts are bulk processed, add together 2 & 2, guys. U can also contact ShapeShift pretending pool owner & ask for ur % on bulk exchange I also have some questions about merged mining, I'm almost sure the pool's merged mining coins for crackfoo using miners' hashrate.

Got many screens & other evidence. I plan to make the most of the story as crackfoo'd stolen my money, up 2 legal enforcement. I'm reported the pool's servers r already found, but not crackfoo, though I haven't contacted authorities yet. But I will when I get the exact servers location & provider name.

I definitely don't post all only here not 2 be lost among others', start new topic. I also send 2 all main crypto-press. U guys, please, either send me all your cases & evidence in short 2 be added 2 my story (links r nice if pointed 2 full but short description with evidence if any), or leave as is. Anyway, I post the story here 2, and u can join the claim upon consideration.

Just gonna quote this for you so everyone can refer to this and your suggestions to impersonate an entity for the purpose of obtaining information which violates many privacy laws, fraud, identity theft among others.

[AK74XXX]

I understand their are oddities, the exchange mode is not supported or tested by the maintainer but it is all open source and regardless pays more than other multipool IMO. I'm not a dev. I welcome changes if there are better way to run the exchange mode: https://github.com/tpruvot/yiimp

Liar, u know how ur exchange works from the start. U just make it 4 ur good.

Couldn't keep off this lie, sorry, man

Just gonna quote this 4 people to c. And ur quotation is nice except 4 it comes from the thief, swindler and lier, who should be properly prosecuted by authorities. As there's almost no chance that most of crypto-currency system evidence is likely 2 be accepted by law enforcement, I find the way 2 protect me & other people using another way, which possibly includes breaking criminal's (urs, crackfoo) privacy. U can push the question to the community, ok, I provide evidence in raw, but, indeed, in the case u'd better disappear asap

[Aravind_NAV]

Aha, as I c the part of story gone public I've got much more to say about coins theft & exchange cheating, I made smaller investigation & found (u all just search the topic if crackfoo hadn't cleared the evidence, but there's much of it) exchange issues raised periodically, but attracting almost no attention. There are also several ShapeShift references, and payouts are bulk processed, add together 2 & 2, guys. U can also contact ShapeShift pretending pool owner & ask for ur % on bulk exchange I also have some questions about merged mining, I'm almost sure the pool's merged mining coins for crackfoo using miners' hashrate.

Got many screens & other evidence. I plan to make the most of the story as crackfoo'd stolen my money, up 2 legal enforcement. I'm reported the pool's servers r already found, but not crackfoo, though I haven't contacted authorities yet. But I will when I get the exact servers location & provider name.

I definitely don't post all only here not 2 be lost among others', start new topic. I also send 2 all main crypto-press. U guys, please, either send me all your cases & evidence in short 2 be added 2 my story (links r nice if pointed 2 full but short description with evidence if any), or leave as is. Anyway, I post the story here 2, and u can join the claim upon consideration.

Just gonna quote this for you so everyone can refer to this and your suggestions to impersonate an entity for the purpose of obtaining information which violates many privacy laws, fraud, identity theft among others.

Dear Crackfoo sir,

Irrespective of whether the information was obtained legally or not, is it true ? (Regarding the % commission as pool owner, for bulk dealing)

[RandomQ]

I'm more curious about the % of coins being exchanged internally by miners and that could be where the calculations are off.
The examples listed here are Mine Coins---->Sell Coins on Exchanges------>Send BTC to Miners

But in reality its below.
Mine Coins----->Pay Miners in coins------>Sell Coins on Exchange------> Send BTC to Miners

[philipma1957]

you cherry pick top price  and if you waited for it to go higher and it dropped  you would be lower.

Here is more prof:

After 11 days I finally found a LBRY block:

http://zpool.ca/?address=1CTiNJyoUmbdMRACtteRWXhGqtSETYd6Vd

341 LBC is converted to 0.035290 btc

If I had sold them on poloniex. I would have got 0.048081 (+36%)

[bread22]

They do take quite a lot, but what else pool I can use if I want auto exchange to BTC?
I am using miningpoolhub sometimes, but it has less coins to mine.
I don't want to sell myself, it is simply too much hassle.

[joblo]

I have seen no convincing data in this thread for either case. Several people posted demonstrations
in the old thread with and without exchange. I abandoned zpool when crackfoo dismissed the problm
out of hand without investigating.

The simplest way to see it is in the graph. Best to choose a pool with only one
coin and a long enough TTF for each block to be clearly visible in the graph. When a matured block is credited to
the balance (status changes to "cleared") there is a visible drop in the total unpaid. The total should not
change significantly when moving from pending to balance.

More detailed tracking can be done by monitoring the value of a particular block. Do the math based on block
reward, % share and exchange price to confirm the pending value. Note the last value prior to exchange and
compare with the amount added to the balance.

Under normal mining condoition visible drops in total unpaid that always coincide with a balance credit could be a sign of the
problem, if it still exists. I've only done a litle bit of mining on zpool recently without specifically testing for this
problem and didn't see anything alarming.

[Jaerin]

The problem is that whatever "evidence" gets presented gets dismissed by people saying that there were no timestamps or didn't have exactly what they wanted to see.  It is actually really simple for anyone to actually calculate it themselves and yet like me they don't do the calculations and blindly dismiss it as an exchange price difference or something like that.

Even then it comes down to getting someone to find the bug and fix it.  Both Crackfoo and Tpruvot claim no responsibility for the exchanging feature and therefore aren't doing anything to investigate or fix the issue.  Someone will likely have to submit a pull request to the Github and then get lucky enough to actually have it committed.  Then maybe Crackfoo will incorporate it into zpool.   I'm pretty sure I found the problem, but haven't had the time to get my own instance of Yiimp setup to verify for sure that it is the function in question and why it is happening.

All the market prices are a calculation of weighted amounts of 20% of the previous value + 80% of the new value and the function is setup such that if the old amount is 0 or out of scope then it simply returns 80% of the current value.  This would explain exactly why all the values are 20% or more lower than what people are expecting.  I posted a spreadsheet of every coin I mined for a period that I was watching it and in every single case it was lower than the lowest possible market price for the day and yet people still dismissed it as me not giving all the details.

At this point you either accept this missing value from the payouts and mine on Zpool or you don't.  Crackfoo seems at this point to at least acknowledge that there might be some oddities going on, but so far hasn't publicly made any effort to resolve the problem.  There isn't a lot of incentive for him to do it given that we're talking about eliminating a significant portion of his earnings by fixing it.

I still think that people would be more than willing to pay an exchange fee if they knew what the fee was supposed to be and have it applied consistently.  I'll continue to try and get things working so I can try and prove out and fix the bug, but its going to likely take me some time.

[felixbrucker]

The problem is that whatever "evidence" gets presented gets dismissed by people saying that there were no timestamps or didn't have exactly what they wanted to see.  It is actually really simple for anyone to actually calculate it themselves and yet like me they don't do the calculations and blindly dismiss it as an exchange price difference or something like that.

Even then it comes down to getting someone to find the bug and fix it.  Both Crackfoo and Tpruvot claim no responsibility for the exchanging feature and therefore aren't doing anything to investigate or fix the issue.  Someone will likely have to submit a pull request to the Github and then get lucky enough to actually have it committed.  Then maybe Crackfoo will incorporate it into zpool.   I'm pretty sure I found the problem, but haven't had the time to get my own instance of Yiimp setup to verify for sure that it is the function in question and why it is happening.

All the market prices are a calculation of weighted amounts of 20% of the previous value + 80% of the new value and the function is setup such that if the old amount is 0 or out of scope then it simply returns 80% of the current value.  This would explain exactly why all the values are 20% or more lower than what people are expecting.  I posted a spreadsheet of every coin I mined for a period that I was watching it and in every single case it was lower than the lowest possible market price for the day and yet people still dismissed it as me not giving all the details.

At this point you either accept this missing value from the payouts and mine on Zpool or you don't.  Crackfoo seems at this point to at least acknowledge that there might be some oddities going on, but so far hasn't publicly made any effort to resolve the problem.  There isn't a lot of incentive for him to do it given that we're talking about eliminating a significant portion of his earnings by fixing it.

I still think that people would be more than willing to pay an exchange fee if they knew what the fee was supposed to be and have it applied consistently.  I'll continue to try and get things working so I can try and prove out and fix the bug, but its going to likely take me some time.

the problem i (and very likely others as well) have is the following: when offered help in finding the "bug" crackfoo didnt want to share even the the slightest logs to determine where exactly the coins get "lost"

[philipma1957]

and I still see 50% higher return here then nicehash.

And I look at mining here as mining btc

and  no sha 256 gear in the world  comes close to mining here.

and every complaint I see  is based on cherry picked   sell  of coins mined at an exchange..


Still I  know that even with all of the above  true.

 it only means  I am better

mining on zpool  then nicehash
mining on zpool then mining with s-9's

I have   been really busy  and have simply not set up a tester pair of rigs.

I also  never switch  as switching  software is really  not a good thing.  it causes lot of issues such as lost shares and flattening of coins prices.  

also  you are always chasing the hot coin along with every else using the software  so the switch to the hot coin is not you but everyone else  and this will kill price.

BTW  i do not switch on nicehash.  

I mine 1 coin at nicehash using 5 1080 ti's
I mine 2 coins at zpool    using 7  1080 ti's

I should earn  at a  7 to 5 ratio    
I earn at a 9 to 5 ratio  

I earn  say .18  at  zpool each month  vs .11 at nicehash

and I earn .14 each week at btc pools  directly.

[joshuaj]

I stand corrected.   I did my own calculations and there is most DEFINITELY a 20% cut being taken.

My evidence

Feel free to take a look at all the work and check it for errors:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18G3-tVapwWzVAp83SExJpZlLAmahLDoNwQBIETDPeeU/edit?usp=sharing


Image of wallet payouts:
https://i.imgur.com/zrvXM9A.png

As you can see in every single case EXCEPT SIGT I was paid no more than 94% of the LOWEST market price for the last 24 hours.  



So as you can see even if all coins were sold at LOWEST market value for the last 24 hours I was paid on average 84% of that amount.  Every coin has moved to the exchange and cleared and is sitting in my unpaid value.  With the exception of SIGT which had a price range of over 300% change throughout the day the value of every coin sold was LESS than the lowest market price.

There are screenshots of every exchange that I used for pricing data showing that it is for the last 24 hours and it includes my system clock in the lower right showing both date and time I checked the data.

As I said mine on Zpool if you want, but just be aware of the truth in payouts.   Either Crackfoo's exchange script dumps well below the lowest market price for the day, we pay a HUGE exchange fee, or there is a cut being taken above the 2-2.5% fees advertised.   I have nothing to gain by presenting the information.  My goal is only to inform.

Thanks for your valuable detailed information. I did not really realize the difference previously, it seems like zpool had very bad coin exchange rate.

[Jaerin]

and I still see 50% higher return here then nicehash.

And I look at mining here as mining btc

and  no sha 256 gear in the world  comes close to mining here.

and every complaint I see  is based on cherry picked   sell  of coins mined at an exchange..


Still I  know that even with all of the above  true.

 it only means  I am better

mining on zpool  then nicehash
mining on zpool then mining with s-9's

I have   been really busy  and have simply not set up a tester pair of rigs.

I also  never switch  as switching  software is really  not a good thing.  it causes lot of issues such as lost shares and flattening of coins prices.  

also  you are always chasing the hot coin along with every else using the software  so the switch to the hot coin is not you but everyone else  and this will kill price.

BTW  i do not switch on nicehash.  

I mine 1 coin at nicehash using 5 1080 ti's
I mine 2 coins at zpool    using 7  1080 ti's

I should earn  at a  7 to 5 ratio    
I earn at a 9 to 5 ratio  

I earn  say .18  at  zpool each month  vs .11 at nicehash

and I earn .14 each week at btc pools  directly.

It isn't cherry picked data though.   If you look earlier that was every coin I mined for a few hour period.  Every single coin was well below the lowest market price of the day.

That's the other issue, yes, zpool pays better than Nicehash, but there are several reasons for that.   Nicehash you're not mining even coins on an algorithm, you are selling your hashrate to whomever wants to buy and decide what you mine.  If no one wants to buy your hash then you get paid whatever someone will pay for it.  Meaning the price of the coin is irrelevant, it is all up to the demand of Nicehash services.  Just because zpool is the better paying pool doesn't mean that there isn't a problem with what is getting paid out.

We just need to find the actual evidence showing the actual bug, or don't mine there and sell the coins yourself.  It's really not that hard to dump them to the exchange and sell them for whatever they happened to be worth at the time.  It will still likely be more than if you mined at zpool as long as you're willing to take those steps to sell them off.  Exchange accounts are typically free so its not even really a barrier.

[philipma1957]

and I still see 50% higher return here then nicehash.

And I look at mining here as mining btc

and  no sha 256 gear in the world  comes close to mining here.

and every complaint I see  is based on cherry picked   sell  of coins mined at an exchange..


Still I  know that even with all of the above  true.

 it only means  I am better

mining on zpool  then nicehash
mining on zpool then mining with s-9's

I have   been really busy  and have simply not set up a tester pair of rigs.

I also  never switch  as switching  software is really  not a good thing.  it causes lot of issues such as lost shares and flattening of coins prices.  

also  you are always chasing the hot coin along with every else using the software  so the switch to the hot coin is not you but everyone else  and this will kill price.

BTW  i do not switch on nicehash.  

I mine 1 coin at nicehash using 5 1080 ti's
I mine 2 coins at zpool    using 7  1080 ti's

I should earn  at a  7 to 5 ratio    
I earn at a 9 to 5 ratio  

I earn  say .18  at  zpool each month  vs .11 at nicehash

and I earn .14 each week at btc pools  directly.

It isn't cherry picked data though.   If you look earlier that was every coin I mined for a few hour period.  Every single coin was well below the lowest market price of the day.

That's the other issue, yes, zpool pays better than Nicehash, but there are several reasons for that.   Nicehash you're not mining even coins on an algorithm, you are selling your hashrate to whomever wants to buy and decide what you mine.  If no one wants to buy your hash then you get paid whatever someone will pay for it.  Meaning the price of the coin is irrelevant, it is all up to the demand of Nicehash services.  Just because zpool is the better paying pool doesn't mean that there isn't a problem with what is getting paid out.

We just need to find the actual evidence showing the actual bug, or don't mine there and sell the coins yourself.  It's really not that hard to dump them to the exchange and sell them for whatever they happened to be worth at the time.  It will still likely be more than if you mined at zpool as long as you're willing to take those steps to sell them off.  Exchange accounts are typically free so its not even really a barrier.

The few hour test is the problem.  It greatly increases the chances of getting fucked because you mined for only two hours.  Then switch .  There is a huge chance you did not hit a block right before you leave.


This causes you to lose shares.

Here is what I mean.  Mine 2 hours hit 1 block. Chances are you hit not at the last minute so many pools drop your shares say for twenty or thirty minutes.  You also don't get proper info on the exact amount of shares since you left early.

If you mine just skein for 200 hours and hit 100 blocks then switch. You lose shares  say for twenty or thirty minutes.  But you keep shares for 100 blocks.

So. A two hour test make a block and lose twenty minutes worth of shares on the next block made.

Vs a 200 hour test  with 100 blocks made then switch and lose 20 or 30 minutes

The 2 hour test will be off as 20 minutes is a huge portion to
Lose.  The 200 hour test. Will be much more accurate as 20 minutes of hash lost is not much compared to 200 hours.

I would ask you to do a 200 hour test with skein on zpool no switching. And at the same time do it for yimp pool.

If you think 200 hours is too long. Do a 50 hour test.  Two rigs zero switching.  Same coin. Convert all coin to btc

Do the test again convert all coin to btc
Do it again convert all coin to btc
Do it again convert all coin to btc

That would be four 50 hour tests one coin zero switching .

If your 20% claim is true it will show as a 20 percent difference is huge.

Crack foo dismisses a lot of claims he did with me when one btc addy I used worked and one did not .

Told me it was on my end. It took a long time to get that address to work.  Yet others worked easy.

But I think your testing method is not good due to shares not being credited with short test methods 2 hours.

[Jaerin]

You don't seem to understand how the prices and things are calculated.

I was not looking at the total payout over time and saying man that seems low.  I was looking at every reported coin that was mined in the earnings section and comparing the paid out value of those coins to the market prices of the day that the coins were exchanged and every single one was below the lowest market value by 20% or more.  How does one sell coins below the lowest market value for a day?

I've mined on Zpool for a couple of months.   You can do these same calculations yourself and see the same thing.  When you mine a coin it shows up in your earnings as X coins mined, share %, how much mBTC those coins are worth.  That price of the mBTC will fluctuate periodically as the coin moves from Immature, Exchange, and Cleared.  At any time during that period you can take the number of coins, multiply it by the current market price and you will see that the mBTC listed is 20%+ less than the market price.  Then when the coin actually is cleared you will see that is the actual mBTC value that is moved from unconfirmed to unpaid in your total amount.

I posted screenshots every single market that I gathered the prices from to prove that I wasn't just misreading the prices and making stuff up.   My system clock is in the lower right corner of all those screenshots to prove the date and time that those prices were checked.  I have nothing to gain by spending hours of my time try to prove this to people other than to try and get it fixed so that I can feel comfortable mining on zpool again.

Try it yourself and you will see exactly what I'm talking about.  Most coins only have one major exchange that they trade on so it is pretty easy to determine where the price is coming from.  That's what led me to looking at the code of Yiimp and seeing this evidence in the code.  I'm still trying to get a fully working Yiimp pool setup just to test what prices are coming from the exchange, but this appears to be the problem.


The relevant function that I believe is causing the issues is as follows:

In web\yaamp\core\backend\markets.php on line 203

Code:

function AverageIncrement($value1, $value2)
{
	$percent = 80;
	$value = ($value1*(100-$percent) + $value2*$percent) / 100;

	return $value;
}

This function is used for pretty much every price lookup from the markets.  The purpose of this function is to create a weighted value based upon 20% of value1 and 80% of value2.  The reason for doing it is to create a trailing average for price moves.  As an example in the price look up for any of the exchanges.

web\yaamp\core\exchange\bittrex.php on line 61-63

Code:

	$price2 = ($m->Bid + $m->Ask)/2;
	$market->price2 = AverageIncrement($market->price2, $price2);
	$market->price = AverageIncrement($market->price, $m->Bid);

The purpose of this code is to first get the average of the Bid and Ask and put it in price2.
Next it sets the price2 value to the weighted value of the previous price2 and the current price2.  This would be a 20% weight of the old price + 80% value of the new price.
Finally it sets the price value to the weighted value of the previous price and the current bid.  This would be a 20% weight of the old bid + 80% value of the new bid.

On paper this seems reasonable because if the price fluctuates by a significant margin it will trail that value and essentially smooth the movement out.  

This is significant because if you look at the AverageIncrement function and consider that if the previous price being passed in value1 does not exist then the function returns 80% of the current price2 or Bid.  So I think what might be happening is somehow the object is falling out of scope or some other issue that is causing that value1 to get a 0 amount and therefore the values coming out are 80% of the value they should be.

As a workaround until it can be determined if the values are being passed incorrectly or falling out of scope a line to check if value1 is 0 and if it is return the value2 should work around the issue.  I'm going to likely try and setup a Yiimp instance on a test VM and see if I can get values out of it to determine for sure if this is the problem.

I'll let you know what I find.  Crackfoo if you want to perhaps add some debug logging like the following it may be quicker for you to see:

Code:

function AverageIncrement($value1, $value2)
{
	$percent = 80;
	$value = ($value1*(100-$percent) + $value2*$percent) / 100;

        debuglog("AverageIncrement: $value1, $value2");

	return $value;
}

Or report it to Tpruvot and see if he can look at it.  I'm pretty sure this is what is causing the issues.

[joblo]

I don't agree with your analysis.

A zero value in AverageIncrement would most likely occur on a failed exchange query and only assuming
there are no error checks. In such cases a zero bid price is possible.

This would cause a 20% drop in the value of $market->price in the current sample.

In the next sample we would adjust based on a new bid price. If a second failure occurs $msrket->price
would become 80% of 80%, or 64%. Each successive failure would reduce the value more.

If the following samples returned a valid bid price the value of $market->price would gradually correct itself.

There is no way to maintain a consistent 20% penalty.

Did you do a test as I suggested?

[Jaerin]

I don't agree with your analysis.

A zero value in AverageIncrement would most likely occur on a failed exchange query and only assuming
there are no error checks. In such cases a zero bid price is possible.

This would cause a 20% drop in the value of $market->price in the current sample.

In the next sample we would adjust based on a new bid price. If a second failure occurs $msrket->price
would become 80% of 80%, or 64%. Each successive failure would reduce the value more.

If the following samples returned a valid bid price the value of $market->price would gradually correct itself.

There is no way to maintain a consistent 20% penalty.

Did you do a test as I suggested?

Actually the value won't keep dropping.  It will just always be 80% of the current bid.  The function grabs 20% of the previous value and 80% of the current.  I'm saying that the 20% is returning 0 because the market object is falling out of scope and therefore you only get 80% of the current bid.

As for your test that isn't much of a valid test either because the conversion of coins to BTC for Yiimp won't necessarily be at the same time or the same prices as when Zpool does it.  It could be easily explained that the test cherry picked the prices that were sold at and not a valid test.

As for the loss of shares that actually doesn't happen on Zpool unless the algo never finds a block again.  Even if you only mine for 1 minute on an algorithm you will get your tiny share the next time a block is found.  You don't need to wait until a block if found to make sure your shares are recorded.  The shares are recorded in the database and paid out when the next block is found.


It would be simple for Crackfoo to determine what the problem is, but it would require him to look at the logs and see what prices it is recording for the pairs and compare them to the exchange.   That's why I need to get a Yiimp instance working so that I can see exactly what it is doing.   The code definitely looks like it could be a problem if the existing market price is not getting carried forward.

This would be a simple fix as well:

Code:

function AverageIncrement($value1, $value2)
{
        if $value == 0 then return $value2;
	$percent = 80;
	$value = ($value1*(100-$percent) + $value2*$percent) / 100;

	return $value;
}

[joblo]

You're just assuming that $market forgets its current value when updating. That would result in a consistent
80% value but this would only ocurr if $market is a local variable. A global wouldn't lose its value between
iterations of the same function. And "out of scope" just means there are two copies of the same variable name
in a different scope. The reference in any single function will allways be in scope.

I think you've latched on to this 20% code and just assumed it is the source of the problem.

You also overcomplicated my test. You just need to follow one block on zpool from creation to credit to your balance.
All of the raw data is there, share%, coin amount, BTC value. The BTC value can be expected to fluctuate with
exchange price. The last BTC value displayed before exchange should be very close to the actual exchanged value,
Simply confirm that the expected amount was credited to your balance.

[guytechie]

So does this mean neither Crackfoo or Tpruvot are going to lift a finger to assist you in this?

[Jaerin]

You're just assuming that $market forgets its current value when updating. That would result in a consistent
80% value but this would only ocurr if $market is a local variable. A global wouldn't lose its value between
iterations of the same function. And "out of scope" just means there are two copies of the same variable name
in a different scope. The reference in any single function will allways be in scope.

I think you've latched on to this 20% code and just assumed it is the source of the problem.

You also overcomplicated my test. You just need to follow one block on zpool from creation to credit to your balance.
All of the raw data is there, share%, coin amount, BTC value. The BTC value can be expected to fluctuate with
exchange price. The last BTC value displayed before exchange should be very close to the actual exchanged value,
Simply confirm that the expected amount was credited to your balance.

And you're ignoring that is exactly what I did.  If you look at my spreadsheet you see where I show in screenshots every market price that compares to the coins that I mined and what prices were given on the pool.  The unpaid amount was the same as what all the coins were supposed to credit to me that were all well below the lowest market price of the day.  Do the calculations and you will see the same thing.  I've already done the tests, if you don't believe the results then do them yourself and you will see exactly what I'm talking about.

As for the code that's exactly why I haven't submitted a bug report and I said as much.   I want to get the pool setup and see for myself if that object is 0, but it would explain the results that we're seeing.  I feel like I'm being very reasonable with my report and evidence and yet again all I'm met with is excuses and more doubts of the tests and evidence.  I didn't want to believe that was the case either, but it does seem to be true. 

[joblo]

You're just assuming that $market forgets its current value when updating. That would result in a consistent
80% value but this would only ocurr if $market is a local variable. A global wouldn't lose its value between
iterations of the same function. And "out of scope" just means there are two copies of the same variable name
in a different scope. The reference in any single function will allways be in scope.

I think you've latched on to this 20% code and just assumed it is the source of the problem.

You also overcomplicated my test. You just need to follow one block on zpool from creation to credit to your balance.
All of the raw data is there, share%, coin amount, BTC value. The BTC value can be expected to fluctuate with
exchange price. The last BTC value displayed before exchange should be very close to the actual exchanged value,
Simply confirm that the expected amount was credited to your balance.

And you're ignoring that is exactly what I did.  If you look at my spreadsheet you see where I show in screenshots every market price that compares to the coins that I mined and what prices were given on the pool.  The unpaid amount was the same as what all the coins were supposed to credit to me that were all well below the lowest market price of the day.  Do the calculations and you will see the same thing.  I've already done the tests, if you don't believe the results then do them yourself and you will see exactly what I'm talking about.

As for the code that's exactly why I haven't submitted a bug report and I said as much.   I want to get the pool setup and see for myself if that object is 0, but it would explain the results that we're seeing.  I feel like I'm being very reasonable with my report and evidence and yet again all I'm met with is excuses and more doubts of the tests and evidence.  I didn't want to believe that was the case either, but it does seem to be true. 

I can see that you listed a lot of numbers but I don't know where they came from or what they mean. In particular how did
you determine the expected value? Maybe if you walked through one example it might help understand.

The problem you seem to be seeing is exchange related. If you review the previous reports in the old locked thread you
will see a 20% loss even when the payout coin is the same as mined, ie no exchange. Either there are 2 seperate problems,
both resulting in losing 20%, or you haven't yet zeroed in on the original problem.

I'm not disagreeing that you saw a problem just disagreeing with your analysis of it. Seeing an obvious reference to 20% in
the code is certainly suspicious and deserves to be pursued. In my analysis of that code I can't see how it
results in being short changed at the exchange. That code only is used to display estimates for the pool, it has nothing to
do with the actual trade on the exchnage.

[Jaerin]

Here you can see the coins that I mined in the last 60 mins or so.  I originally recorded an hour long video of it, but for some reason Shadowplay decided to fast forward a chunk of the audio, but not the video and therefore they got out of sync.  I will try and explain where all the numbers come from:

Here are the earnings on my wallet:


In the Amount column you can see exactly how many of each coin I mined for that particular block.  You can also see the mBTC payout value of those said coins.

If you look at the Wallet payout information you will see that in total it is expected to payout 0.00000549 BTC.  This matches the value of the sum of all the coins in BTC value in the following spreadsheet Cell D17.  Then looking on coinmarketcap.com I took the current BID value for Auroracoin which is traded on Bittrex and Topaz which is traded on Novaexchange.   Column F shows the current BID price of the coins on the respective exchanges.   Column G is the proceeds of that exchange.  In both cases the exchange fees for trading are less than 1%.  The Exchange proceeds in Column G is showing how much BTC each set of coins should produce.   Column H is the percentage of value the zpool is giving compared to what is generated on the Exchange.  As you can see in every case the value is 85% of the value that Zpool is paying.  This is the way that I've calculated it every time and you can too.

At this point it appears that perhaps Crackfoo has adjusted something because in my previous example it was 80% in almost every case.  So that is where all the numbers came from and how I was deriving the value of the coins compared to what Zpool was paying.  As of right now Zpool appears to be paying 85% of the current bid value of the coins.  You can see the price per coin paid out in the E column vs the F column.





Link to the spreadsheet to verify all formulas:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pJud4B3tZD5Y587GJhpHy655KeakClbcNw8U2JI6YnY

[joblo]

It gets confusing with all the superfluous data like hashtap. Like I said before it's better to track one block from
start to finish. There is less noise to distract the skeptics.

I did that with the Aurora blocks (Topaz is just a rounding error) and I now see clearly. At no time in the last week
has AUR dropped below .017 mBTC yet you only got .014.

It looks to me that the problem got moved. Previously everthing was correct until the block was cleared and
added to the balance. This could result in a very obvious drop in total unpaid with every balance increase.

Now the 20% is already lost when the block is first posted. This avoids the visible manifestation in the graph
when the 30% is taken away. I'd suspect an attenpt to cover up but now it's even more obvious because all one
has to do is audit the amount and value against the exchange rate and see it's 20% below market. Unless a coin
has more than 20% volatility it should be obvious.

That was excellent work but it took me a while to understand it.

[Storx]

It gets confusing with all the superfluous data like hashtap. Like I said before it's better to track one block from
start to finish. There is less noise to distract the skeptics.

I did that with the Aurora blocks (Topaz is just a rounding error) and I now see clearly. At no time in the last week
has AUR dropped below .017 mBTC yet you only got .014.

It looks to me that the problem got moved. Previously everthing was correct until the block was cleared and
added to the balance. This could result in a very obvious drop in total unpaid with every balance increase.

Now the 20% is already lost when the block is first posted. This avoids the visible manifestation in the graph
when the 30% is taken away. I'd suspect an attenpt to cover up but now it's even more obvious because all one
has to do is audit the amount and value against the exchange rate and see it's 20% below market. Unless a coin
has more than 20% volatility it should be obvious.

That was excellent work but it took me a while to understand it.

This is the exact reason i gave up mining zpool, i tried to use it for skunkhash/SIGT on the 25th of July, because Suprnova SIGT went down, so i moved all my rigs over to zpool to stay mining SIGT, my amount of hashpower i currently have mined 88% of block i helped with and i was only payed out 31mBTC for that which pissed me off.. so i found another pool Yiimp and very quickly switched tell suprnova came back up.. i gave Zpool another chance and it screwed me harder.. because those first few days SIGT payouts were extremely high and i got robbed....

the 25th of July, the LOWEST the coin hit was 2206 for the entire period, but exchanged time took place around the 4k range, because we had so little hashpower to find the blocks back then.. so took a good minute for the next block...



First of all, it says i mined 88.206% of the block, i didnt catch this at first, i was just disgusted with the payout... but after switching on pure earnings being low to begin with, because i use Awesome miner and it tracks your stats and the numbers were just not adding up, based on the hashpower/diff value/ and period of time i was mining.. but the coins it gave me credit for doesnt even match the % it says i hashed...

So that block i was payed out 31.83mBTC for my work, but if you take the LOWEST 24hr level for that entire day and do the math that number would be 43.12mBTC, but in reality the earned blocked occured when SIGT was around the 4k range.. so it should have been around 78.20mBTC.... and those are all numbers going off the 1955 number....

If you go by the share % it reports, i would be closer to 2205.15 coins... so the difference is actually even larger if you go by the %, that would put the value around 88.20mBTC

So off one block i was payed out 31.83mBTC on a block that should have payed me closer to 80ish mBTC...

But wait, there is more....

After all of this i compared the numbers of my share rate on Suprnova to the Zpool numbers, i mined 5ish blocks on zpool before i switched...If you take the start time logged in Awesome miner when i started mining on zpool tell the last time stamp when i stopped the miner, my day average on zpool was 13,807 coin/day based on the coins credited on the blocks i did mined on via the website... the coins/day rate on suprnova before and after were much higher.. before going to zpool i was averaging a rate of 16,301, but after switching off zpool and going to Yiimp tell suprnova came back online, i was averaging 15,883/day

So something is just not adding up, either the website is reporting wrong info or something is messing up in the code, but even if the website is reporting wrong numbers, your payouts are matching those exchanged website postings.. so somehow the numbers are just getting messed with, dropped off, or not adding up correctly to pay us out correctly

[Storx]

I started this forum post months ago, because when i first started mining on Zpool the numbers were just not adding up to the "24hr Actual Earnings" posted on the pool site when i was mining skein days on without any switching back then.. i asked and many people to including Jaerin talked me out of the missing earnings based on ideas and such that could be the reason i was seeing such differences..  so i stayed on the pool and mined for a good while as others dropped in and kept reporting the same things i had brought up previously, but everytime people defended the reason the earnings were not matching/adding up... or those people's post were deleted nearly instantly off the zpool post.. so i started branching out testing the waters on other pools while i continued to mainly mine on zpool, because honestly the btc auto exchange was huge benefit that kept me coming back, because i was still learning about the exchanges and such.. but months later Jaerin who of all people defended all the times i questioned the earnings months ago started bringing it up, i was like wow what the heck is going on......

[ma7555]

has this been sorted? any news about this exact missing coins problem?

[mjmeans]

Code:

function AverageIncrement($value1, $value2)
{
	$percent = 80;
	$value = ($value1*(100-$percent) + $value2*$percent) / 100;

        debuglog("AverageIncrement: $value1, $value2");

	return $value;
}

Or report it to Tpruvot and see if he can look at it.  I'm pretty sure this is what is causing the issues.

Did you ever set up a VM to test this? If there is a race condition that is affecting this function it may only happen under heavy server load or heavy internet traffic. So you will want to run a stress test on the VM while this is running to see if the problem occurs only under stress. Also pull the network connection. See if a dropped connection affects it.


But better than all that testing is this: If either value has 0, then return the other value. So if the old value is 0 then there is nothing to average, so take the new value. If the new value is 0 then there was a server error or a race condition and no new data has actually been received, so keep the old value.

Code:

function AverageIncrement($value1, $value2)
{
	if ($value1 == 0) return $value2;
        if ($value2 == 0) return $value1;
	$percent = 80;
	$value = ($value1*(100-$percent) + $value2*$percent) / 100;
	return $value;
}

That all being said, this is an extremely poor averaging function. Since it seems that things sit in the exchange state for 4-6 hours, a WMA over the previous 6 hours of samples with samples collected every 5 minutes would be a much better average. And that collected data could allow a much better prediction of future value by projecting upper and lower trend for the next 5 minute sample. The mBTC column for predicted value would then show x.xxxxx(+/- y.yyyyy). This predicted value should only be shown when the state is immature or exchange, since we don't know the final exchange rate until it's cleared. But when cleared the exchange transaction should be analyzed and the actual rate of exchange reported and paid. Add to keep it open and transparent, so clicking on any of the lines in the payout list should display a page showing the data and the calculation. That way everyone knows that it is working the way it should.

[mjmeans]

You can easily give the data you collected and turn it over the FBI with a complaint (even if he and his site is in Canada or another country). 300K in USD is a serious crime and they will investigate and coordinate with Canada and other countries to gather additional evidence. But first there has to be a person filing a complaint that has legal "standing".

[sunk818]

Wow, what corruption if zpool's 20%-15% deceitful take rate is true!

They do take quite a lot, but what else pool I can use if I want auto exchange to BTC?
I am using miningpoolhub sometimes, but it has less coins to mine.
I don't want to sell myself, it is simply too much hassle.

I'm just starting out so I've dabbled in multipool and zpool. What about multipool.us? They just give you the coins you mined. I think having the pool just give you the coins makes it easier to audit based on block reward, accepted shares, etc. Pool is not involved in converting or exchanging coins in any way. You get a split of the solved block and that's it.

I just signed up for Bittrex and noticed they have many altcoin wallets. I also noticed they have an autosell to BTC feature. You sweep daily (or based on your threshold) from multipool.us to Bittrex. Then Bittrex autosells to BTC. You can then audit that the exchange gave you the correct price.

Seems easier to audit the pool and exchange rates (sell altcoins to BTC) when the process is separated.

[lolx12345]

maybe the pool really took the 20% fee, but in many experiment it show zpool can get more income than other pool.
so if get more income, why not

[crackfoo]

Zpool does skim alot. I have watched it many times. I think he is taking all the bitconnect blocks for himself. Seriously I have seen his pool hit bitconnect in the last few days 5 to 8 times but when it hits. It drops from the scrypt pool for about 5 min no one gets any shares then pops back into the pool.

It like week to week the pool does this. One week it fine and people get the rewards the other week all the rewards are taking away. Doing a little math Bitconnect is worth about 135.00 a coin at writing this a block is worth 10 coins which equals about 1350.00 US.

If you check his block explorer I seen bitconnect hit many times but nothing was mined or paid out to my miners or others. Somehow it disappears from the list on the right side of scrypt.

If my calc is correct he has this week alone made some 300k in US dollars.

I cannot prove anything but you watch it in chrome or firefox one day when bitconnect has all the hashing power for an hour and then watch it hit.

I'm not sure where you get off saying this but you can clearly see each time a BCC block is found it's added to your accounts. 6 blocks in the past 24h and all credited.

https://pasteboard.co/GNFoO5N.png

Sorry for whoever's address this is

http://zpool.ca/?address=1C5qZGgoshJoCwEZkRVony1DTEmbR7Vgk2

To say I'm keeping them all to myself it simple an outright lie.

[mjmeans]

I'm not sure where you get off saying this but you can clearly see each time a BCC block is found it's added to your accounts. 6 blocks in the past 24h and all credited.

https://pasteboard.co/GNFoO5N.png

Sorry for whoever's address this is

http://zpool.ca/?address=1C5qZGgoshJoCwEZkRVony1DTEmbR7Vgk2

To say I'm keeping them all to myself it simple an outright lie.

It may be that some people are lying, but it also may be that ignorance caused by that the lack of complete transparency and auditability feeds suspicion. You can't expect people to examine the source code to know how it works especially when this is (or should be) a simple accounting matter for your system to report.

Would it be possible to add more detail to the explorer for an exchanged coin transaction through it's entire life from mined coin to final coin, http://www.zpool.ca/explorer/ORB?height=2271808? i.e. the detail page not only shows the block mined (as it does now), but also the total mined coin in the block, and your share. AND most importantly the details about how the mined coin was exchanged: your coin was sent to exchange "x", the total coins exchanged in that exchange transaction was "y", and your share of those exchanged coins is "z", and the exchange fee. Basically I want to be able to see the full accounting from start to end: "A" coins mined - "B" fees (detail of each fee including pool fee) = "C" net coins mined => "C" net coins mined * "D" exchange rate - "E" fee (detail of each fee including exchange fee) = "F" final exchanged coin. The sum of all "F" values should exactly equal the account balance. If it doesn't, then more detail need to be added so that anyone can see the full calculation.

Whether this information can be attained through some other means is not relevant. The pool has all this information and it breeds suspicion if the information is not easy to see. If you can make these details easily available, and there is no errors, then you would alleviate 99% of everyone's suspicion.

[crackfoo]

Now you’ve deleted your posts wolf, after assuming you know my life and personality?

[Wolf_Tech]

Now you’ve deleted your posts wolf, after assuming you know my life and personality?

I plee the 5th. But I'm in canada so that doesn't exsit.

Don't worry I wont say who you are or anything.

Just wanted to know if you were real and you are.

[kollom]

20 percent is very much, maybe this is mistake.

[Bibi187]

Zpool is a scam ...

Missing 20% earning vs granatgas ... tested on 5 Days ...

So @crackfoo ... Go fuck your self oO and enjoy my money stolen.

[Alegro40]

Zpool - scammers. Coins a miner on a pool wallet . This same wallet was paid to my wallet. There was no exchange. Stole 20%
P.S. Text transleted Google

[KhalidK]

Zpool taking 20% my money, scam pool. never use.

[notey]

Frankly, I don't have an interest to say either way.  But, I have run 10 D3s and 3 L3s for two days on Prohashing and then on Nicehash and on ZPool.  The ZPool payout was more after the unpaid and pending amounts were considered (total earned).  Not only was it more, it was substantially more.  I will do a test later with screenshots, etc. But, there's no way that I feel like Z Pool is stealing from me. You have to make sure that you are considering the sum of your earned amounts.

[Bibi187]

Frankly, I don't have an interest to say either way.  But, I have run 10 D3s and 3 L3s for two days on Prohashing and then on Nicehash and on ZPool.  The ZPool payout was more after the unpaid and pending amounts were considered (total earned).  Not only was it more, it was substantially more.  I will do a test later with screenshots, etc. But, there's no way that I feel like Z Pool is stealing from me. You have to make sure that you are considering the sum of your earned amounts.

For "true" testing, you have to run at same time your ASIC, on different pool ...

Not running them 24hours here / 24 hours here / 24 hours here ...

I made this test by my self, and i SAY IT, i have earn 20% LESS on zpool.

[notey]

Frankly, I don't have an interest to say either way.  But, I have run 10 D3s and 3 L3s for two days on Prohashing and then on Nicehash and on ZPool.  The ZPool payout was more after the unpaid and pending amounts were considered (total earned).  Not only was it more, it was substantially more.  I will do a test later with screenshots, etc. But, there's no way that I feel like Z Pool is stealing from me. You have to make sure that you are considering the sum of your earned amounts.

For "true" testing, you have to run at same time your ASIC, on different pool ...

Not running them 24hours here / 24 hours here / 24 hours here ...

I made this test by my self, and i SAY IT, i have earn 20% LESS on zpool.

The reason that I posted at all was to say that ZPool didn't steal from me and I'll "say it."  It's not a "true" test either to run separate miners on different pools for only 24 hours.  You need more time.  A week would be a good start.  I'll try and run a test next week.

[Jaerin]

Frankly, I don't have an interest to say either way.  But, I have run 10 D3s and 3 L3s for two days on Prohashing and then on Nicehash and on ZPool.  The ZPool payout was more after the unpaid and pending amounts were considered (total earned).  Not only was it more, it was substantially more.  I will do a test later with screenshots, etc. But, there's no way that I feel like Z Pool is stealing from me. You have to make sure that you are considering the sum of your earned amounts.

No one is suggesting that it doesn't pay out more than other non-yiimp pools.  First off Nicehash is not based on the current price of the coin, but upon the price people are willing to pay for Nicehash rental services so the price can vary significantly from the Exchange prices.   The point is the amount of coins that are being stated on Zpool that you are mining compared with the prices they should be exchanged for is always significantly lower than they should be.  Take a look at ahashpool.com which is also running Yiimp, but has fixed the bug that I suggested earlier in the thread.   There when I go and to the same comparison of coins mined to the amount being added to the unpaid amounts it is significantly closer to the true exchange prices at the time.

These prices will fluctuate as the blocks mature and go to the exchange, but they are always in line with what the prices are showing on the exchange.  My previous analysis of the coins I mined on zpool often put the value at or below the lowest value for the entire day for those coins.   This was often 10-20% lower than what should have been paid out for them.  Some people are fine with this payout because as you mentioned Zpool pays out better than some alternatives, but that doesn't make it transparent or fair given what they claim is their payout.

[creat326]

In my case is not the fees but the money not coming in at all. I have now over $200 “paid” and if you check the blockchain nothing has been sent in over a week. I try contacting them on twitter but nobody replies. So basically running away with the mining results randomly.

[Jaerin]

In my case is not the fees but the money not coming in at all. I have now over $200 “paid” and if you check the blockchain nothing has been sent in over a week. I try contacting them on twitter but nobody replies. So basically running away with the mining results randomly.

It may be paid out honestly the bitcoin block chain is backed up quite a bit.  I have a payout on a different pool that has been sitting unconfirmed for almost 24 hours now.

[creat326]

It’s not. It’s been over 7 days and when you submit it the transaction is listed immediately. It would show unconfirmed but it would show. There is no trace whatsoever of all fake transactions zpool is supposedly doing.

[Berterlong]

Now you’ve deleted your posts wolf, after assuming you know my life and personality?

If none of these claims are true, why is it that you only responded to one of these posts and none of the very well thought out, empirically supported and especially those based upon sound evidence?

I'd say you know what you are doing, but avoid these sort of posts, especially when people are constantly saying the same things on numerous forums and by an even larger amount of individuals (thinking..)

Either this is all by mere coincidence, but that would be naive and an assumption built out of bad logic. 
The more sound idea is that you are or someone associated with you, is taking far more than what you are showing on these individuals records.  Some how only your pool is correct, while every other one is not and everyone on here is just merely making stories up and you are just some form of 'victim' of mere coincidence.

[TheHypnoToad]

The stats are correct but the return is almost always lower on zpool than on the other pools that doesn't autoexchange.

ex:

skein

zpool.ca 24hour    payout per ghash: 0.00449BTC
yiimp.ccminer.org payout per ghash:  0.0062BTC

+38% if you mine on yiimp and exchange your coins yourself.

But zpool is more profitable than the nicehashminer..

Fact i actually test (not speculate)

i've test with multiple rigs had 1070x4 on nicehashminer / another 1070x4 and zpool nemosmier  /and another 4x1070 on nemosminer Mining Pool Hub  

the zpool version is making more every week so i don't believe there is any theft going on my payouts seem to always be correct..

ex:

blake2s

zpool.ca 24hour    payout per ghash: 1.17497BTC  
yiimp.ccminer.org payout per ghash:  0.41053BTC

+186.2  if you mine on zpool

zpool blake2s and lyra2v2 are 2x the profitability compared to  yiimp.ccminer.org....

You have to remember the luck factor, you need to run test cocurrently for them to be comparable.

That said I've not tried Zpool, I'm going to try a week on miningpoolhub and see how it pays before switching

[kroonike]

Its funny that zpool steals 15% even if you dont exchange your coins.
I was trying to mine Bulwardk (BWK) there today, didn't want to get robbed by zpools' exchange rates so decided to get paid in BWK.

The pool found a block my last 50 earnings tab shows:

      Name                 Amount                Percent            mBTC                Time
 Bulwark (nist5)     0.144400 BWK         0.385%       0.08421262        70m ago

But Total Earned tab shows: 0.12669564 BWK  Why do people still use this pool?

[jmorignot]

Agreed - I just spent a week mining on it to test it - The income is indeed 20% less than reported in the miner. I took measures every few hours, and the income was constantly around 20% lower than reported.
SCAM! - I'm going back to MiningPoolHub....

[tsojin]

Its funny that zpool steals 15% even if you dont exchange your coins.
I was trying to mine Bulwardk (BWK) there today, didn't want to get robbed by zpools' exchange rates so decided to get paid in BWK.

The pool found a block my last 50 earnings tab shows:

      Name                 Amount                Percent            mBTC                Time
 Bulwark (nist5)     0.144400 BWK         0.385%       0.08421262        70m ago

But Total Earned tab shows: 0.12669564 BWK  Why do people still use this pool?

So, 1) even if you choose to mine w/ the same coin, your mining 'rewards' are still pegged to the amount of BTC those coins earned.  2) you are still charged the 5% exchange fee even if not 'exchanging' (b/c as I said in 1 you technically are).  No matter your payout coin it goes like this: reward > BTC > your payout coin.  The pool has a fee (2% for nist5) and the exchange to BTC has a fee (5%).  Which means you would pay 0.010108 in fees.  So .1444 -.010108 = 0.134292.  So you still have a difference of .00759636 when you factor in the static costs, which is 5% difference between expected and actual (far cry from 15% 'extra').  And when looking over the BWKs prices on the pay you posted on crypotia, there are more then enough greater then 5% prices swings downward to account for that.  Since most likely BWK has to be valued twice before you get your earnings, once when the pool exchanges for BTC and then again when it exchanges for your equivalent of BWK (BWK started out around 0.0007 then trended downward before finishing at 0.00063).  This is the main reason I get paid out in BTC,  and why I suspect that the non-btc payouts are 'use at your own risk.'

Nothing on here is more than conjecture and misleading information.  The 'evidence' is sp_'s screenshots, but they lack timestamps to validate and he is using polenex which I am pretty sure is not the exchange zpool uses for lbry.  But unless every auto-converting pool is also taking 20% zpool should show results that are lower than other pools.  When ran side by side (and assuming both pools have the same coins and other variables corrected for).  But the several side by sides that have been done and posted and the ones I did (when I do my next one I'll post results) show zpool either the same, very slightly below, above, or way above I just don't see it. 

[cidman]

i would say the fee is closer to 50%
2 1070ti test on x17 for the last 24 hours brought in 25.4 XVG
just from watching the last 50 blocks earned vs what the pool found will tell u everything u need to know
really surprised ppl are mining here since they are prolly not even profitable

[bsobel]

Are those blocks confirmed?  In my tests for some of the coins it can take days before they are confirmed and enough liquidity exists to exchange them.  There is a LONG tail on some of them (not hours, days, maybe a week).  That said, in my tests the payouts eventually show up.  I think many people mine for a day and compare numbers, but thats not really a good comparison since many of the smaller alt coins won't have been paid yet.  Mine for 24 hours then look at your total payout 7 days later...

[dude77]

I'm going to be running some comparison tests but watching the way zpool does its payouts I don't think 24 hours is long enough to get a fair comparison. I think you probably need two or three days for the payouts to stabilize because if you're mining an algo that has a lot of coins, you can have a lot of credit locked up in a half different coin accounts and the payouts are a little wavy even though the input hashpower is constant.

If you have a very small mine it might take more than a few days to get to that point where it's stable.

Miningpoolhubstats is somewhat similar in that only the "Payout Last 24 Hours" for your payout coin really seems to be relevant and it takes a few days to get that number stable before you can see what it actually happening.

The apparent 20% fee may just be because you have about 20% of your coins in other coins that have not reached the thresholds needed to get traded to your payout coin. If you let it hash a couple days you'll have everything topped off and your input hashpower should equate to your output payments.

One thing I like about Miningpoolhub is that you can manually get payments on all your other coins to empty your account so you don't have to wait for them to automatically get traded out. On zpool it looks like it's only automatic trading to get the accounts emptied. Not a big deal but it's a slight difference.

[DaleyEdster]

Here you can see the coins that I mined in the last 60 mins or so.  I originally recorded an hour long video of it, but for some reason Shadowplay decided to fast forward a chunk of the audio, but not the video and therefore they got out of sync.  I will try and explain where all the numbers come from:

In the Amount column you can see exactly how many of each coin I mined for that particular block.  You can also see the mBTC payout value of those said coins.

If you look at the Wallet payout information you will see that in total it is expected to payout 0.00000549 BTC.  This matches the value of the sum of all the coins in BTC value in the following spreadsheet Cell D17.  Then looking on coinmarketcap.com I took the current BID value for Auroracoin which is traded on Bittrex and Topaz which is traded on Novaexchange.   Column F shows the current BID price of the coins on the respective exchanges.   Column G is the proceeds of that exchange.  In both cases the exchange fees for trading are less than 1%.  The Exchange proceeds in Column G is showing how much BTC each set of coins should produce.   Column H is the percentage of value the zpool is giving compared to what is generated on the Exchange.  As you can see in every case the value is 85% of the value that Zpool is paying.  This is the way that I've calculated it every time and you can too.

At this point it appears that perhaps Crackfoo has adjusted something because in my previous example it was 80% in almost every case.  So that is where all the numbers came from and how I was deriving the value of the coins compared to what Zpool was paying.  As of right now Zpool appears to be paying 85% of the current bid value of the coins.  You can see the price per coin paid out in the E column vs the

Link to the spreadsheet to verify all formulas:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pJud4B3tZD5Y587GJhpHy655KeakClbcNw8U2JI6YnY

How can you tell which exchange the coins are traded on to get the prices etc?

[pzyxian]

If you only want to mine a single coin and want to get paid in that coin, go with yiimp.  If you want to try and ride the wave of multiple coins to increase your payout, zpool is the best I have found regardless of what is said here.  I am happy with the daily payouts I get with zpool and I don't have to manage it.  They at least match, but usually beat, estimated payouts for mining a single coin.  When I multi coin mine on yiimp I had to create 10+ wallets on various exchanges, then wait for enough coins to amass to be able to sell them.  Then transferring the BTC back incurred another cost.  All of this is handled in bulk by zpool which reduces cost and time.  To duplicate the number of coins available to mine and manage the exchanging of those coins to BTC, requires a significant amount of time without zpool, in order to get the same payout (in my experience).

But in the end, it's your choice what to do.  As my operation gets larger and I dedicate additional time to it, I may move to yiimp and hold coins longer to catch the rises in the market better.  But currently I don't have the time, so zpool provides a very consistent income that I don't have to manage.

Did anyone do any testing of this or is still testing?  
 

I hear you on the convenience, but I just don't like shady shit.  Be upfront with the fees/costs.  Mining Pool Hub has auto-exchange and can mine multiple coins. They are upfront on exchange fees.

I like the stats and PPS on zpool better since I only have limited mining time each day.  If their info is correct, their profitability seems higher than other pools without much of a reason as to why they are higher that I can tell.

I don't want to mine there for a few days expecting X and getting Y because they are not upfront about exchange fees and I am suckered in with the higher profitability numbers that is why I wanted to see if anyone had given it a try.  

Have you tried the auto exchange on mining pool hub? they say the tx fee is 0.2% but never really mentioned about the exchange fee. They exchange on 3 exchanges (bittrex, yobit, and poloniex). I know on bittrex if you trade it's 0.25% each way. If you mine ZEC and want to exchange for ZCL you will end up getting 0.5% exchange fee. I'm not sure if MPH has any deals with these exchanges such that they can shrink the fees to 0.2% no mater what coin you want to auto exchange for. Or is this 0.2% merely a fee for transferring to and from the exchange, plus whatever exchange fees on top of that.

[DaleyEdster]

So where do you see that MPH sell all of their coins on Poloniex, Bittrex and Yobit?

[Max3k]

So where do you see that MPH sell all of their coins on Poloniex, Bittrex and Yobit?

Auto Exchange - EXCHANGE AVAILABILITY AND SETTINGS

[DaleyEdster]

So where do you see that MPH sell all of their coins on Poloniex, Bittrex and Yobit?

Auto Exchange - EXCHANGE AVAILABILITY AND SETTINGS

Ah ok thanks. I can't see anything similar for zpool or ahashpool though.

[pinpins]

I think it must be tricky with auto exchange, you should pay transaction fees back and forth. Also you can lose sometimes selling lower than expected. So it might end up with less than you anticipated

[dude77]

I'm going to be running some comparison tests but watching the way zpool does its payouts I don't think 24 hours is long enough to get a fair comparison. I think you probably need two or three days for the payouts to stabilize because if you're mining an algo that has a lot of coins, you can have a lot of credit locked up in a half different coin accounts and the payouts are a little wavy even though the input hashpower is constant.

If you have a very small mine it might take more than a few days to get to that point where it's stable.

Miningpoolhubstats is somewhat similar in that only the "Payout Last 24 Hours" for your payout coin really seems to be relevant and it takes a few days to get that number stable before you can see what it actually happening.

The apparent 20% fee may just be because you have about 20% of your coins in other coins that have not reached the thresholds needed to get traded to your payout coin. If you let it hash a couple days you'll have everything topped off and your input hashpower should equate to your output payments.

One thing I like about Miningpoolhub is that you can manually get payments on all your other coins to empty your account so you don't have to wait for them to automatically get traded out. On zpool it looks like it's only automatic trading to get the accounts emptied. Not a big deal but it's a slight difference.

From the testing I've done zpool is the overall best option for me. The people saying it takes a 20% fee are wrong IMO. They need to do a longer test with a significant amount of hashpower, like 2 or 3 rigs worth, in order to handle the fact that zpool has a lot of your coins in different accounts which means the payout will widely fluctuate if you're using just one or two cards.

I like Miningpoolhub but it doesn't have the algorithm I want to mine. Zpool is more resilient to losses due to market fluctuations than straight mining so it is currently my pool of choice.

One thing I don't like about zpool is it pays out every 2 hours so you may get a lot of transaction payout fees. I like that Miningpoolhub lets you set a payout threshhold. However overall zpool makes me the most money at the moment so that's what i'm going with.

[pzyxian]

So where do you see that MPH sell all of their coins on Poloniex, Bittrex and Yobit?

You have to create an account then you will see the auto exchange option like below:

http://take.ms/UzKcK

[zmago]

if you think it is only 20% you are wrong.

zpool is the worst pool to choose from.

just read this article: http://www.home-mining.net/mining-dutch-wins-race-0-01btc/

same gear 4 pools.

diff between zpool and winner is almost 50% and have in mind that winning pool took their profits too.

stay away from zpool.

[dude77]

I'll look into mining-dutch.

I've kind of changed my opinion on zpool due to this quote from their site:

"If a coin is NOT listed on the pool (except BTC) and you still choose to mine with that address, you risk not getting any payments. BTC is the only guaranteed payout currency"

From what I can tell if you select a payout that no one else on the pool wants to mine then you may never get paid. It seems that they will not use an exchange to autotrade your coins the way mining pool hub does.

Instead, I think that on zpool they only send out coins that others on the pool have directly mined. This saves on exchange fees but makes it so you have have extremely delayed payments. You might never get paid if your payout coin falls out of favor from the mining algos.

This means that if you do a mining test, zpool will have a very long tail where it's paying out your credits for several days after you stop mining. Because the coins vary so much in exchange rate this makes it hard to tell what value you actually got from it.

I strongly prefer that mining pool hub will actually exchange to your payout to get your withdrawals faster. There is still a delay but you don't have to manually fiddle to see if your payout coin is not being mined and have to update your miners all the time like you have to with zpool.

[zmago]

I'll look into mining-dutch.

I've kind of changed my opinion on zpool due to this quote from their site:

"If a coin is NOT listed on the pool (except BTC) and you still choose to mine with that address, you risk not getting any payments. BTC is the only guaranteed payout currency"

From what I can tell if you select a payout that no one else on the pool wants to mine then you may never get paid. It seems that they will not use an exchange to autotrade your coins the way mining pool hub does.

Instead, I think that on zpool they only send out coins that others on the pool have directly mined. This saves on exchange fees but makes it so you have have extremely delayed payments. You might never get paid if your payout coin falls out of favor from the mining algos.

This means that if you do a mining test, zpool will have a very long tail where it's paying out your credits for several days after you stop mining. Because the coins vary so much in exchange rate this makes it hard to tell what value you actually got from it.

I strongly prefer that mining pool hub will actually exchange to your payout to get your withdrawals faster. There is still a delay but you don't have to manually fiddle to see if your payout coin is not being mined and have to update your miners all the time like you have to with zpool.

about zpool payouts. yes it's like that. but then again the only "sure" payout is in BTC all other currencies are at your own risk. If there is a fork (this is what happens to me) you won't get any coins or if there is not enough coins you will have to wait for you to get your payment when and if there are enough coins.

if you mine for instance x11 coins there is an option to mine several x11 coins and get payout in LTC (to reduce tx fee, so you don't have to pay btc tx fee). I can suggest you https://www.starpool.biz, atm they are paying 0,00009327 btc per gh. also their neoscrypt mh/day is super good. check out does pools you might see a big difference not just with payouts but also support is on another level. from zpool you hardly get any answer.

[Patriot872]

Ran into this post and had to comment, been running 35 D3's since early november
So far trying better than a 7 various pools, with some conviction i can state atleast for a straight DASH payout, Zpool is 20% more.
I'm not biased and i run rigs everywhere except nicehash, but for DASH Zpool is the only place we are pointing in the immediate term.
Frankly it gets tiring bouncing pools every 15 days, but the payouts don't lie for DASH.
There's always going to be various other instances especially for Alt coins, i can't comment on those only on my first hand knowledge.

The word " Scam " shouldn't be used lightly guys, in a space where unfortunatley we are rampid with far too many true ones.

[Chillaheal]

I've recently concluded my own testing of both Zpool and Mining Pool Hub.

I ran 1x 1070 for 13h on Zpool mining Equihash
I ran 1x 1070 for 13h on MPH mining Equihash
Both at the same time ofcourse, auto exchanging to LTC


Result:
Zpool: 0.006226 LTC
MPH:   0.008767 LTC

A 13h test might be too short to definitivly conclude if 20% is missing or not, but the results definately warrants further investigation.

The answer could be that MPH mined high valued coins like Bitcoin Gold and Zclassic, while Zpool mostly mined Komodo / Bitcoinz. According to the Zpool Equihash table, Bitcoinz should have been more profitable to mine, but if the price spread is too wide when they later sell the coins that could explain the lower profit. If this turns out to be the explanation tho, then Zpool needs to adjust the algorithm that chooses what to mine; if Zpool cant sell the coins for the value they were expected to be sold at, then they should not be mined at all.

[Ahrcoin]

Has anyone heard of anything like this on Minergate?  I mined there a while back and for 24 hours and got like barely anything compared to switching to different pool.  I feel like i have seen some posts on Minergate being sketchy as well.



EtherGrab.us

[coinfoundry]

Ran into this post and had to comment, been running 35 D3's since early november
So far trying better than a 7 various pools, with some conviction i can state atleast for a straight DASH payout, Zpool is 20% more.

Did you give https://coinfoundry.org/pool/dash a try? Our miners are pretty happy with their earnings and the support they receive.

The word " Scam " shouldn't be used lightly guys, in a space where unfortunatley we are rampid with far too many true ones.

I totally agree. This term is used by far too lightly these days. Often times without any fact checking whatsoever.

[Worldtokenindex]

I think Faucet is great idea like NANO with total supply 133 Mil (Same as NANO)

[GTANAdam]

I've actually noticed this.. once again.

[jqprez]

I have data. They take 50% of the hashrate. 3 months of observations. The conclusions: scam

[crackfoo]

I'm impressed by detail of your analysis.

[joblo]

You ignored anyone who did post very detailed analysis.
That let the issue fester. Had you reviewed the analysis and done some
investigating the whole issue might have been explained.
Instead you ignored those who presented data and responded flippantly
to anyone else.

It's your own fault the issue won't die.

BTW I don't like the new web interface. Maybe the back end works better for you
but the front end is clunky.

[tanbebe]

Zpool is a thief