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[smooth]

"Because the time of "launch" was very ambiguous."

So if *you don't know* the launch date, how do you know there was a premine?

What part of ambiguous and open to interpretation and reasonable disagreement is not clear?

I.e. how can you say with enough certainty that there was a premine, to warrant throwing accusations like this around, and even pressuring 3rd party websites to warn their users of this on your behalf?  Are you saying that you don't actually know if there was a premine?

I made no accusation with respect to premine, nor did I pressure. I posted evidence of the instamine, described as such. You can see it back on this thread.

Again if there was a premine, where is your research / hard evidence / blocks / dates etc like any normal person would give before slandering a coin that if price gets negatively affected you will directly benefit?

You throw the word slander around occasionally but it doesn't mean something you don't like, or that make you uncomfortable, or that impede promotion of a coin. It means untrue statements that cause harm. My statements are not untrue.

OK so can you confirm that your position is that you are not accusing Dash of having a premine?  I am looking for clarification to this specific question.

My posts say what I want to say. I'm not going to dumb down a nuanced discussion at your request.

[BlockaFett]

"Because the time of "launch" was very ambiguous."

So if *you don't know* the launch date, how do you know there was a premine?

What part of ambiguous and open to interpretation and reasonable disagreement is not clear?

I.e. how can you say with enough certainty that there was a premine, to warrant throwing accusations like this around, and even pressuring 3rd party websites to warn their users of this on your behalf?  Are you saying that you don't actually know if there was a premine?

I made no accusation with respect to premine, nor did I pressure. I posted evidence of the instamine, described as such. You can see it back on this thread.

Again if there was a premine, where is your research / hard evidence / blocks / dates etc like any normal person would give before slandering a coin that if price gets negatively affected you will directly benefit?

You throw the word slander around occasionally but it doesn't mean something you don't like, or that make you uncomfortable, or that impede promotion of a coin. It means untrue statements that cause harm. My statements are not untrue.

OK so can you confirm that your position is that you are not accusing Dash of having a premine?  I am looking for clarification to this specific question.

My posts say what I want to say. I'm not going to dumb down a nuanced discussion at your request.

Ok I am not surprised you can't answer simple question like this either Smooth to be honest after your lead dev today accuses straight out that Dash is a premine for the first time, you are ambiguous, and neither of you can present any factual research or are even aware of the actual launch date or which blocks are involved.

Apologies to this thread that the Monero trolling has spilled here and that CMC is now put in a really awkward position - Welcome to Trollero...

[smooth]

"Because the time of "launch" was very ambiguous."

So if *you don't know* the launch date, how do you know there was a premine?

What part of ambiguous and open to interpretation and reasonable disagreement is not clear?

I.e. how can you say with enough certainty that there was a premine, to warrant throwing accusations like this around, and even pressuring 3rd party websites to warn their users of this on your behalf?  Are you saying that you don't actually know if there was a premine?

I made no accusation with respect to premine, nor did I pressure. I posted evidence of the instamine, described as such. You can see it back on this thread.

Again if there was a premine, where is your research / hard evidence / blocks / dates etc like any normal person would give before slandering a coin that if price gets negatively affected you will directly benefit?

You throw the word slander around occasionally but it doesn't mean something you don't like, or that make you uncomfortable, or that impede promotion of a coin. It means untrue statements that cause harm. My statements are not untrue.

OK so can you confirm that your position is that you are not accusing Dash of having a premine?  I am looking for clarification to this specific question.

My posts say what I want to say. I'm not going to dumb down a nuanced discussion at your request.

Ok I am not surprised you can't answer simple question like this either Smooth to be honest after your lead dev today accuses straight out that Dash is a premine for the first time, you are ambiguous, and neither of you can present any factual research or are even aware of the actual launch date or which blocks are involved.

First of all he's not my lead dev, he is one of the core team. Second of all, I don't speak for him, nor does he speak for me. If you have some concern about something he said, you will have to ask him about it. Finally I did present factual research in terms of when the public launch was repeatedly scheduled and rescheduled over a period of a few hours (including links to and quotes from specific posts), and the facts about specific blocks is clear from the blockchain and various graphs (with almost 600k coins mined in the first hour, so if the launch was even one hour ahead of schedule, that would be at a minimum a 600k premine). So it is nonsense that no "factual research" is presented.

Apologies to this thread that the Monero trolling has spilled here and that CMC is now put in a really awkward position - Welcome to Trollero...

Name calling doesn't do your cause any favors, it just makes you look like a typical altcoin pumping zealot.

[mastermoneyy]

HEY GLISS, YOU BITCH ASS HOE

Dash had a instamine! not a premine you dorky geek! dont be hating you bitch!

IF A PREMINE MEANS TO CHANGE THE BLOCK REWARD AFTER RELEASE, THEN EVERY OTHER COIN THAT HAD BLOCK REWARDS CHANGED AFTER REALSE IS ON THE PREMINE LIST TOO YOU FUCKING HOE!

[illodin]

-scam supporting nonsense-

Another thing I find interesting is that the average block reward for the first 4500 Dash blocks (ie. the first 32.8 hours) is 443 Dash.

The average block reward for the 70 000-odd blocks since then is 33.5 Dash. What an incredible difference!

Truly, the gods must have shined upon those miners, as they simultaneously punished those who perhaps fell ill and didn't check Bitcointalk for a day. It really is clear that this is just a happy accident.

Yes, what a punishment... 443 coins was worth 0.011075 BTC during the first weeks of OTC trading. And that makes the 4500 block's total worth 50 BTC.

And btw, it wasn't premine, as I had nothing to do with the dev(s) and managed to mine those bonus blocks in the beginning just fine.

[illodin]

-I refused to read the answer to that question, so I have to keep asking to make it look like I'm right and fluffypony is wrong-

By means of a direct comparison, where Dash's average block reward for the first 4500 blocks was 443 Dash, and 33.5 Dash on average thereafter, let's look at Monero's.

For the first 4500 blocks (like an hour and a bit) the block reward was 17.5 XMR. The average block reward for the 12+ months thereafter is 13.7 XMR.

Do you see the dichotomy?

Wait, are you saying XMR was mined 4500 blocks in the first hour? 4500 * 17.5 = 78,750 XMR, which is worth of 78 BTC using the first weeks' OTC price.

Or did I get some of the numbers wrong.

[BlockaFett]

"Because the time of "launch" was very ambiguous."

So if *you don't know* the launch date, how do you know there was a premine?

What part of ambiguous and open to interpretation and reasonable disagreement is not clear?

I.e. how can you say with enough certainty that there was a premine, to warrant throwing accusations like this around, and even pressuring 3rd party websites to warn their users of this on your behalf?  Are you saying that you don't actually know if there was a premine?

I made no accusation with respect to premine, nor did I pressure. I posted evidence of the instamine, described as such. You can see it back on this thread.

Again if there was a premine, where is your research / hard evidence / blocks / dates etc like any normal person would give before slandering a coin that if price gets negatively affected you will directly benefit?

You throw the word slander around occasionally but it doesn't mean something you don't like, or that make you uncomfortable, or that impede promotion of a coin. It means untrue statements that cause harm. My statements are not untrue.

OK so can you confirm that your position is that you are not accusing Dash of having a premine?  I am looking for clarification to this specific question.

My posts say what I want to say. I'm not going to dumb down a nuanced discussion at your request.

Ok I am not surprised you can't answer simple question like this either Smooth to be honest after your lead dev today accuses straight out that Dash is a premine for the first time, you are ambiguous, and neither of you can present any factual research or are even aware of the actual launch date or which blocks are involved.

First of all he's not my lead dev, he is one of the core team. Second of all, I don't speak for him, nor does he speak for me. If you have some concern about something he said, you will have to ask him about it. Finally I did present factual research in terms of when the public launch was repeatedly scheduled and rescheduled over a period of a few hours (including links to and quotes from specific posts), and the facts about specific blocks is clear from the blockchain and various graphs (with almost 600k coins mined in the first hour, so if the launch was even one hour ahead of schedule, that would be at a minimum a 600k premine). So it is nonsense that no "factual research" is presented.

Apologies to this thread that the Monero trolling has spilled here and that CMC is now put in a really awkward position - Welcome to Trollero...

Name calling doesn't do your cause any favors, it just makes you look like a typical altcoin pumping zealot.

If you are starting up the convo again Smooth...I don't care about the conjecture and name calling, I just want a simple clarification of your position:

Are you accusing Dash of being a premine, yes or no?  

Why are you leaving this as a grey area, you either are able to make that accusation or you aren't which is it?

(this is going to get really tedious while I presumably have to keep repeating this question until Smooth actually answers it...and this is the 6th time I had to ask it plus another 6 times I asked Fluffy until he put me on ignore so he doesn't have to answer either...)

[mastermoneyy]

EXACTLY IT WAS A FUCKING INSTAMINE NOT A PREMINE YOU DUMB PIECE OF SHIT GLISS!

if a premine means to change the block reward manually then coinmarketcap has to add others coins that changed block reward after release to the premine list too

fagg ot gliss is probably a fucking shitcoin holder, dash had its block reward changed, SO FUCKING WHAT!

[smooth]

"Because the time of "launch" was very ambiguous."

So if *you don't know* the launch date, how do you know there was a premine?

What part of ambiguous and open to interpretation and reasonable disagreement is not clear?

I.e. how can you say with enough certainty that there was a premine, to warrant throwing accusations like this around, and even pressuring 3rd party websites to warn their users of this on your behalf?  Are you saying that you don't actually know if there was a premine?

I made no accusation with respect to premine, nor did I pressure. I posted evidence of the instamine, described as such. You can see it back on this thread.

Again if there was a premine, where is your research / hard evidence / blocks / dates etc like any normal person would give before slandering a coin that if price gets negatively affected you will directly benefit?

You throw the word slander around occasionally but it doesn't mean something you don't like, or that make you uncomfortable, or that impede promotion of a coin. It means untrue statements that cause harm. My statements are not untrue.

OK so can you confirm that your position is that you are not accusing Dash of having a premine?  I am looking for clarification to this specific question.

My posts say what I want to say. I'm not going to dumb down a nuanced discussion at your request.

Ok I am not surprised you can't answer simple question like this either Smooth to be honest after your lead dev today accuses straight out that Dash is a premine for the first time, you are ambiguous, and neither of you can present any factual research or are even aware of the actual launch date or which blocks are involved.

First of all he's not my lead dev, he is one of the core team. Second of all, I don't speak for him, nor does he speak for me. If you have some concern about something he said, you will have to ask him about it. Finally I did present factual research in terms of when the public launch was repeatedly scheduled and rescheduled over a period of a few hours (including links to and quotes from specific posts), and the facts about specific blocks is clear from the blockchain and various graphs (with almost 600k coins mined in the first hour, so if the launch was even one hour ahead of schedule, that would be at a minimum a 600k premine). So it is nonsense that no "factual research" is presented.

Apologies to this thread that the Monero trolling has spilled here and that CMC is now put in a really awkward position - Welcome to Trollero...

Name calling doesn't do your cause any favors, it just makes you look like a typical altcoin pumping zealot.

If you are starting up the convo again Smooth...I don't care about the conjecture and name calling, I just want a simple clarification of your position:

Are you accusing Dash of being a premine, yes or no?  

Why are you leaving this as a grey area, you either are able to make that accusation or you aren't which is it?

(this is going to get really tedious while I presumably have to keep repeating this question until Smooth actually answers it...and this is the 6th time I had to ask it plus another 6 times I asked Fluffy until he put me on ignore so he doesn't have to answer either...)

This is getting repetitious. I already said I've given my opinion on the question and I've also explained why there is no clear yes or no answer. No need to continue going in circles simply because you don't like my answer.

[BlockaFett]

"Because the time of "launch" was very ambiguous."

So if *you don't know* the launch date, how do you know there was a premine?

What part of ambiguous and open to interpretation and reasonable disagreement is not clear?

I.e. how can you say with enough certainty that there was a premine, to warrant throwing accusations like this around, and even pressuring 3rd party websites to warn their users of this on your behalf?  Are you saying that you don't actually know if there was a premine?

I made no accusation with respect to premine, nor did I pressure. I posted evidence of the instamine, described as such. You can see it back on this thread.

Again if there was a premine, where is your research / hard evidence / blocks / dates etc like any normal person would give before slandering a coin that if price gets negatively affected you will directly benefit?

You throw the word slander around occasionally but it doesn't mean something you don't like, or that make you uncomfortable, or that impede promotion of a coin. It means untrue statements that cause harm. My statements are not untrue.

OK so can you confirm that your position is that you are not accusing Dash of having a premine?  I am looking for clarification to this specific question.

My posts say what I want to say. I'm not going to dumb down a nuanced discussion at your request.

Ok I am not surprised you can't answer simple question like this either Smooth to be honest after your lead dev today accuses straight out that Dash is a premine for the first time, you are ambiguous, and neither of you can present any factual research or are even aware of the actual launch date or which blocks are involved.

First of all he's not my lead dev, he is one of the core team. Second of all, I don't speak for him, nor does he speak for me. If you have some concern about something he said, you will have to ask him about it. Finally I did present factual research in terms of when the public launch was repeatedly scheduled and rescheduled over a period of a few hours (including links to and quotes from specific posts), and the facts about specific blocks is clear from the blockchain and various graphs (with almost 600k coins mined in the first hour, so if the launch was even one hour ahead of schedule, that would be at a minimum a 600k premine). So it is nonsense that no "factual research" is presented.

Apologies to this thread that the Monero trolling has spilled here and that CMC is now put in a really awkward position - Welcome to Trollero...

Name calling doesn't do your cause any favors, it just makes you look like a typical altcoin pumping zealot.

If you are starting up the convo again Smooth...I don't care about the conjecture and name calling, I just want a simple clarification of your position:

Are you accusing Dash of being a premine, yes or no?  

Why are you leaving this as a grey area, you either are able to make that accusation or you aren't which is it?

(this is going to get really tedious while I presumably have to keep repeating this question until Smooth actually answers it...and this is the 6th time I had to ask it plus another 6 times I asked Fluffy until he put me on ignore so he doesn't have to answer either...)

This is getting repetitious. I already said I've given my opinion on the question and I've also explained why there is no clear yes or no answer. No need to continue going in circles simply because you don't like my answer.

I don't know what you wrote about your opinion, that's the reason I am asking for a clarification.

Would you mind simply clarifying it here perhaps now for those of us that didn't see it in your posts?

Are you making the accusation that Dash is a premine, yes or no?

[ArticMine]

CoinMarketCap could easily put an end to this debate by changing the tag to "significantly pre-mined, insta-mined or ninja-mined". So my suggestion is to make this change.

[Prosperityforall]

Dash is technically premined. If premined in the crypto-world is where a section of the coins were reserved for a selected party by changing the core parameters, then Dash was premined. Dash's 'issues' fall into the area between a Premine and a instamine, as it has all the features of a Premine, with the excepion that the scam occured after it's release.

So maybe a new name, maybe a 'aftermine', 'afterpremine', or just add a new 'instamine' filter list where currencies that had their core parameters changed after release are excluded.

[smooth]

BlockFett please read the italicized portion of my previous reply before asking again.  

[smooth]

CoinMarketCap could easily put an end to this debate by changing the tag to "significantly pre-mined, insta-mined or ninja-mined". So my suggestion is to make this change.

This. Or alternately select coins that had a clearly scheduled release time publically announced say a minimum of 24 hours ahead of any mining, with coins subsequently emitted substantially in accordance with the originally published schedule. Filter the rest.

[BlockaFett]

"Because the time of "launch" was very ambiguous."

So if *you don't know* the launch date, how do you know there was a premine?

What part of ambiguous and open to interpretation and reasonable disagreement is not clear?

I.e. how can you say with enough certainty that there was a premine, to warrant throwing accusations like this around, and even pressuring 3rd party websites to warn their users of this on your behalf?  Are you saying that you don't actually know if there was a premine?

I made no accusation with respect to premine, nor did I pressure. I posted evidence of the instamine, described as such. You can see it back on this thread.

Again if there was a premine, where is your research / hard evidence / blocks / dates etc like any normal person would give before slandering a coin that if price gets negatively affected you will directly benefit?

You throw the word slander around occasionally but it doesn't mean something you don't like, or that make you uncomfortable, or that impede promotion of a coin. It means untrue statements that cause harm. My statements are not untrue.

OK so can you confirm that your position is that you are not accusing Dash of having a premine?  I am looking for clarification to this specific question.

My posts say what I want to say. I'm not going to dumb down a nuanced discussion at your request.

Ok I am not surprised you can't answer simple question like this either Smooth to be honest after your lead dev today accuses straight out that Dash is a premine for the first time, you are ambiguous, and neither of you can present any factual research or are even aware of the actual launch date or which blocks are involved.

First of all he's not my lead dev, he is one of the core team. Second of all, I don't speak for him, nor does he speak for me. If you have some concern about something he said, you will have to ask him about it. Finally I did present factual research in terms of when the public launch was repeatedly scheduled and rescheduled over a period of a few hours (including links to and quotes from specific posts), and the facts about specific blocks is clear from the blockchain and various graphs (with almost 600k coins mined in the first hour, so if the launch was even one hour ahead of schedule, that would be at a minimum a 600k premine). So it is nonsense that no "factual research" is presented.

Apologies to this thread that the Monero trolling has spilled here and that CMC is now put in a really awkward position - Welcome to Trollero...

Name calling doesn't do your cause any favors, it just makes you look like a typical altcoin pumping zealot.

If you are starting up the convo again Smooth...I don't care about the conjecture and name calling, I just want a simple clarification of your position:

Are you accusing Dash of being a premine, yes or no?  

Why are you leaving this as a grey area, you either are able to make that accusation or you aren't which is it?

(this is going to get really tedious while I presumably have to keep repeating this question until Smooth actually answers it...and this is the 6th time I had to ask it plus another 6 times I asked Fluffy until he put me on ignore so he doesn't have to answer either...)

This is getting repetitious. I already said I've given my opinion on the question and I've also explained why there is no clear yes or no answer. No need to continue going in circles simply because you don't like my answer.

Apologies I think you misunderstood my question.

Fluffy has today for the first time to accuse of Dash as being a premine and when I asked him for evidence he put me on ignore after I had to ask 5 times: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199685.msg11215773#msg11215773

As a fellow member of the core team, and some posts suggesting that you agree with that, I am asking you are you making the same accusation or not?

That is a binary question, you either are making this accusation or you aren't.

If you answer is that there is no clear answer, then I presume you are not making the same accusation?

So to avoid a lot of further messages, to clarify again, are you able to make the accusation that Dash is a premine like Fluffy has done, or you are not able?  It has to be one or the other...which is it?

[smooth]

"Because the time of "launch" was very ambiguous."

So if *you don't know* the launch date, how do you know there was a premine?

What part of ambiguous and open to interpretation and reasonable disagreement is not clear?

I.e. how can you say with enough certainty that there was a premine, to warrant throwing accusations like this around, and even pressuring 3rd party websites to warn their users of this on your behalf?  Are you saying that you don't actually know if there was a premine?

I made no accusation with respect to premine, nor did I pressure. I posted evidence of the instamine, described as such. You can see it back on this thread.

Again if there was a premine, where is your research / hard evidence / blocks / dates etc like any normal person would give before slandering a coin that if price gets negatively affected you will directly benefit?

You throw the word slander around occasionally but it doesn't mean something you don't like, or that make you uncomfortable, or that impede promotion of a coin. It means untrue statements that cause harm. My statements are not untrue.

OK so can you confirm that your position is that you are not accusing Dash of having a premine?  I am looking for clarification to this specific question.

My posts say what I want to say. I'm not going to dumb down a nuanced discussion at your request.

Ok I am not surprised you can't answer simple question like this either Smooth to be honest after your lead dev today accuses straight out that Dash is a premine for the first time, you are ambiguous, and neither of you can present any factual research or are even aware of the actual launch date or which blocks are involved.

First of all he's not my lead dev, he is one of the core team. Second of all, I don't speak for him, nor does he speak for me. If you have some concern about something he said, you will have to ask him about it. Finally I did present factual research in terms of when the public launch was repeatedly scheduled and rescheduled over a period of a few hours (including links to and quotes from specific posts), and the facts about specific blocks is clear from the blockchain and various graphs (with almost 600k coins mined in the first hour, so if the launch was even one hour ahead of schedule, that would be at a minimum a 600k premine). So it is nonsense that no "factual research" is presented.

Apologies to this thread that the Monero trolling has spilled here and that CMC is now put in a really awkward position - Welcome to Trollero...

Name calling doesn't do your cause any favors, it just makes you look like a typical altcoin pumping zealot.

If you are starting up the convo again Smooth...I don't care about the conjecture and name calling, I just want a simple clarification of your position:

Are you accusing Dash of being a premine, yes or no? 

Why are you leaving this as a grey area, you either are able to make that accusation or you aren't which is it?

(this is going to get really tedious while I presumably have to keep repeating this question until Smooth actually answers it...and this is the 6th time I had to ask it plus another 6 times I asked Fluffy until he put me on ignore so he doesn't have to answer either...)

This is getting repetitious. I already said I've given my opinion on the question and I've also explained why there is no clear yes or no answer. No need to continue going in circles simply because you don't like my answer.

Apologies I think you misunderstood my question.

Fluffy has today for the first time to accuse of Dash as being a premine and when I asked him for evidence he put me on ignore after I had to ask 5 times: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199685.msg11215773#msg11215773

As a fellow member of the core team, and some posts suggesting that you agree with that, I am asking you are you making the same accusation or not?

That is a binary question, you either are making this accusation or you aren't.

If you answer is that there is no clear answer, then I presume you are not making the same accusation?

So to avoid a lot of further messages, to clarify again, are you able to make the accusation that Dash is a premine like Fluffy has done, or you are not able?  It has to be one or the other...which is it?

Fluffypony's opinions are his own, as are mine. There have been no statements made at all on behalf of the core team, so you can leave that part of it out entirely.

You should simply accept that I reject your attempt to create a narrow range of how I may express my opinion. It has been expressed. Read it. That's all you get.

[BlockaFett]

"Because the time of "launch" was very ambiguous."

So if *you don't know* the launch date, how do you know there was a premine?

What part of ambiguous and open to interpretation and reasonable disagreement is not clear?

I.e. how can you say with enough certainty that there was a premine, to warrant throwing accusations like this around, and even pressuring 3rd party websites to warn their users of this on your behalf?  Are you saying that you don't actually know if there was a premine?

I made no accusation with respect to premine, nor did I pressure. I posted evidence of the instamine, described as such. You can see it back on this thread.

Again if there was a premine, where is your research / hard evidence / blocks / dates etc like any normal person would give before slandering a coin that if price gets negatively affected you will directly benefit?

You throw the word slander around occasionally but it doesn't mean something you don't like, or that make you uncomfortable, or that impede promotion of a coin. It means untrue statements that cause harm. My statements are not untrue.

OK so can you confirm that your position is that you are not accusing Dash of having a premine?  I am looking for clarification to this specific question.

My posts say what I want to say. I'm not going to dumb down a nuanced discussion at your request.

Ok I am not surprised you can't answer simple question like this either Smooth to be honest after your lead dev today accuses straight out that Dash is a premine for the first time, you are ambiguous, and neither of you can present any factual research or are even aware of the actual launch date or which blocks are involved.

First of all he's not my lead dev, he is one of the core team. Second of all, I don't speak for him, nor does he speak for me. If you have some concern about something he said, you will have to ask him about it. Finally I did present factual research in terms of when the public launch was repeatedly scheduled and rescheduled over a period of a few hours (including links to and quotes from specific posts), and the facts about specific blocks is clear from the blockchain and various graphs (with almost 600k coins mined in the first hour, so if the launch was even one hour ahead of schedule, that would be at a minimum a 600k premine). So it is nonsense that no "factual research" is presented.

Apologies to this thread that the Monero trolling has spilled here and that CMC is now put in a really awkward position - Welcome to Trollero...

Name calling doesn't do your cause any favors, it just makes you look like a typical altcoin pumping zealot.

If you are starting up the convo again Smooth...I don't care about the conjecture and name calling, I just want a simple clarification of your position:

Are you accusing Dash of being a premine, yes or no?  

Why are you leaving this as a grey area, you either are able to make that accusation or you aren't which is it?

(this is going to get really tedious while I presumably have to keep repeating this question until Smooth actually answers it...and this is the 6th time I had to ask it plus another 6 times I asked Fluffy until he put me on ignore so he doesn't have to answer either...)

This is getting repetitious. I already said I've given my opinion on the question and I've also explained why there is no clear yes or no answer. No need to continue going in circles simply because you don't like my answer.

Apologies I think you misunderstood my question.

Fluffy has today for the first time to accuse of Dash as being a premine and when I asked him for evidence he put me on ignore after I had to ask 5 times: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199685.msg11215773#msg11215773

As a fellow member of the core team, and some posts suggesting that you agree with that, I am asking you are you making the same accusation or not?

That is a binary question, you either are making this accusation or you aren't.

If you answer is that there is no clear answer, then I presume you are not making the same accusation?

So to avoid a lot of further messages, to clarify again, are you able to make the accusation that Dash is a premine like Fluffy has done, or you are not able?  It has to be one or the other...which is it?

Fluffypony's opinions are his own, as are mine. There have been no statements made at all on behalf of the core team, so you can leave that part of it out entirely.

You should simply accept that I reject your attempt to create a narrow range of how I may express my opinion. It has been expressed. Read it. That's all you get.

Ok so I will leave it there, unless one of you decides to fill in the blanks. The answers I got are:

Monero core team members position on accusations that Dash was premined after petitioning CoinMarketCap to mark Dash as a "significantly premined coin":

FluffyPony: Accused Dash dev of premining (relating to the launch 16 month ago), for the first time today, upgraded from being an "instamine" before today.  Refused to provide any evidence to backup the premine accusation.

Smooth: Refused to say if he is making the same accusation that any Darkcoin were mined before the launch and also doesn't know the Darkcoin launch date.

[smooth]

"Because the time of "launch" was very ambiguous."

So if *you don't know* the launch date, how do you know there was a premine?

What part of ambiguous and open to interpretation and reasonable disagreement is not clear?

I.e. how can you say with enough certainty that there was a premine, to warrant throwing accusations like this around, and even pressuring 3rd party websites to warn their users of this on your behalf?  Are you saying that you don't actually know if there was a premine?

I made no accusation with respect to premine, nor did I pressure. I posted evidence of the instamine, described as such. You can see it back on this thread.

Again if there was a premine, where is your research / hard evidence / blocks / dates etc like any normal person would give before slandering a coin that if price gets negatively affected you will directly benefit?

You throw the word slander around occasionally but it doesn't mean something you don't like, or that make you uncomfortable, or that impede promotion of a coin. It means untrue statements that cause harm. My statements are not untrue.

OK so can you confirm that your position is that you are not accusing Dash of having a premine?  I am looking for clarification to this specific question.

My posts say what I want to say. I'm not going to dumb down a nuanced discussion at your request.

Ok I am not surprised you can't answer simple question like this either Smooth to be honest after your lead dev today accuses straight out that Dash is a premine for the first time, you are ambiguous, and neither of you can present any factual research or are even aware of the actual launch date or which blocks are involved.

First of all he's not my lead dev, he is one of the core team. Second of all, I don't speak for him, nor does he speak for me. If you have some concern about something he said, you will have to ask him about it. Finally I did present factual research in terms of when the public launch was repeatedly scheduled and rescheduled over a period of a few hours (including links to and quotes from specific posts), and the facts about specific blocks is clear from the blockchain and various graphs (with almost 600k coins mined in the first hour, so if the launch was even one hour ahead of schedule, that would be at a minimum a 600k premine). So it is nonsense that no "factual research" is presented.

Apologies to this thread that the Monero trolling has spilled here and that CMC is now put in a really awkward position - Welcome to Trollero...

Name calling doesn't do your cause any favors, it just makes you look like a typical altcoin pumping zealot.

If you are starting up the convo again Smooth...I don't care about the conjecture and name calling, I just want a simple clarification of your position:

Are you accusing Dash of being a premine, yes or no? 

Why are you leaving this as a grey area, you either are able to make that accusation or you aren't which is it?

(this is going to get really tedious while I presumably have to keep repeating this question until Smooth actually answers it...and this is the 6th time I had to ask it plus another 6 times I asked Fluffy until he put me on ignore so he doesn't have to answer either...)

This is getting repetitious. I already said I've given my opinion on the question and I've also explained why there is no clear yes or no answer. No need to continue going in circles simply because you don't like my answer.

Apologies I think you misunderstood my question.

Fluffy has today for the first time to accuse of Dash as being a premine and when I asked him for evidence he put me on ignore after I had to ask 5 times: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199685.msg11215773#msg11215773

As a fellow member of the core team, and some posts suggesting that you agree with that, I am asking you are you making the same accusation or not?

That is a binary question, you either are making this accusation or you aren't.

If you answer is that there is no clear answer, then I presume you are not making the same accusation?

So to avoid a lot of further messages, to clarify again, are you able to make the accusation that Dash is a premine like Fluffy has done, or you are not able?  It has to be one or the other...which is it?

Fluffypony's opinions are his own, as are mine. There have been no statements made at all on behalf of the core team, so you can leave that part of it out entirely.

You should simply accept that I reject your attempt to create a narrow range of how I may express my opinion. It has been expressed. Read it. That's all you get.

Ok so I will leave it there, unless one of you decides to fill in the blanks. The answers I got are:

Monero core team members position on accusations that Dash was premined after petitioning CoinMarketCap to mark Dash as a "significantly premined coin":

FluffyPony: Accused Dash dev of premining (relating to the launch 16 month ago), for the first time today, upgraded from being an "instamine" before today.  Refused to provide any evidence to backup the premine accusation.

Smooth: Refused to say if he is making the same accusation that any Darkcoin were mined before the launch and also doesn't know the Darkcoin launch date.

Paraphrasing someone else's statement while subtly (or not-so-subtly) changing the meaning is a cheap rhetorical trick. If you are going to quote, just quote.

Also, I didn't "petition" anything, I just replied to a post here and quoted factual (at least factual in the sense they were accurate quotes) information about the launch (two of Evan's posts and a FAQ entry).  I don't know what fluffypony may or may not have petitioned.

Seriously, you are really bad at not injecting bias when you try to summarize or paraphrase. Best you stick to just quoting what was actually said.

[BlockaFett]

"Because the time of "launch" was very ambiguous."

So if *you don't know* the launch date, how do you know there was a premine?

What part of ambiguous and open to interpretation and reasonable disagreement is not clear?

I.e. how can you say with enough certainty that there was a premine, to warrant throwing accusations like this around, and even pressuring 3rd party websites to warn their users of this on your behalf?  Are you saying that you don't actually know if there was a premine?

I made no accusation with respect to premine, nor did I pressure. I posted evidence of the instamine, described as such. You can see it back on this thread.

Again if there was a premine, where is your research / hard evidence / blocks / dates etc like any normal person would give before slandering a coin that if price gets negatively affected you will directly benefit?

You throw the word slander around occasionally but it doesn't mean something you don't like, or that make you uncomfortable, or that impede promotion of a coin. It means untrue statements that cause harm. My statements are not untrue.

OK so can you confirm that your position is that you are not accusing Dash of having a premine?  I am looking for clarification to this specific question.

My posts say what I want to say. I'm not going to dumb down a nuanced discussion at your request.

Ok I am not surprised you can't answer simple question like this either Smooth to be honest after your lead dev today accuses straight out that Dash is a premine for the first time, you are ambiguous, and neither of you can present any factual research or are even aware of the actual launch date or which blocks are involved.

First of all he's not my lead dev, he is one of the core team. Second of all, I don't speak for him, nor does he speak for me. If you have some concern about something he said, you will have to ask him about it. Finally I did present factual research in terms of when the public launch was repeatedly scheduled and rescheduled over a period of a few hours (including links to and quotes from specific posts), and the facts about specific blocks is clear from the blockchain and various graphs (with almost 600k coins mined in the first hour, so if the launch was even one hour ahead of schedule, that would be at a minimum a 600k premine). So it is nonsense that no "factual research" is presented.

Apologies to this thread that the Monero trolling has spilled here and that CMC is now put in a really awkward position - Welcome to Trollero...

Name calling doesn't do your cause any favors, it just makes you look like a typical altcoin pumping zealot.

If you are starting up the convo again Smooth...I don't care about the conjecture and name calling, I just want a simple clarification of your position:

Are you accusing Dash of being a premine, yes or no?  

Why are you leaving this as a grey area, you either are able to make that accusation or you aren't which is it?

(this is going to get really tedious while I presumably have to keep repeating this question until Smooth actually answers it...and this is the 6th time I had to ask it plus another 6 times I asked Fluffy until he put me on ignore so he doesn't have to answer either...)

This is getting repetitious. I already said I've given my opinion on the question and I've also explained why there is no clear yes or no answer. No need to continue going in circles simply because you don't like my answer.

Apologies I think you misunderstood my question.

Fluffy has today for the first time to accuse of Dash as being a premine and when I asked him for evidence he put me on ignore after I had to ask 5 times: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=199685.msg11215773#msg11215773

As a fellow member of the core team, and some posts suggesting that you agree with that, I am asking you are you making the same accusation or not?

That is a binary question, you either are making this accusation or you aren't.

If you answer is that there is no clear answer, then I presume you are not making the same accusation?

So to avoid a lot of further messages, to clarify again, are you able to make the accusation that Dash is a premine like Fluffy has done, or you are not able?  It has to be one or the other...which is it?

Fluffypony's opinions are his own, as are mine. There have been no statements made at all on behalf of the core team, so you can leave that part of it out entirely.

You should simply accept that I reject your attempt to create a narrow range of how I may express my opinion. It has been expressed. Read it. That's all you get.

Ok so I will leave it there, unless one of you decides to fill in the blanks. The answers I got are:

Monero core team members position on accusations that Dash was premined after petitioning CoinMarketCap to mark Dash as a "significantly premined coin":

FluffyPony: Accused Dash dev of premining (relating to the launch 16 month ago), for the first time today, upgraded from being an "instamine" before today.  Refused to provide any evidence to backup the premine accusation.

Smooth: Refused to say if he is making the same accusation that any Darkcoin were mined before the launch and also doesn't know the Darkcoin launch date.

Paraphrasing someone else's statement while subtly (or not-so-subtly) changing the meaning is a cheap rhetorical trick. If you are going to quote, just quote.

Also, I didn't "petition" anything, I just replied to a post here and quoted factual (at least factual in the sense they were accurate quotes) information about the launch (two of Evan's posts and a FAQ entry).  I don't know what fluffypony may or may not have petitioned.

Seriously, you are really bad at not injecting bias when you try to summarize or paraphrase. Best you stick to just quoting what was actually said.

Not sure what you mean Smooth.  

The result I posted is totally accurate and correct based on what you said and I stand by it 100%.

If you disagree, please be specific to what I wrote otherwise it isn't clear what you mean.

I.e. this:

Monero core team members position on accusations that Dash was premined after petitioning CoinMarketCap to mark Dash as a "significantly premined coin":

FluffyPony: Accused Dash dev of premining (relating to the launch 16 month ago), for the first time today, upgraded from being an "instamine" before today.  Refused to provide any evidence to backup the premine accusation.

Smooth: Refused to say if he is making the same accusation that any Darkcoin were mined before the launch and also doesn't know the Darkcoin launch date.

[spatula]

CoinMarketCap could easily put an end to this debate by changing the tag to "significantly pre-mined, insta-mined or ninja-mined". So my suggestion is to make this change.

This. Or alternately select coins that had a clearly scheduled release time publically announced say a minimum of 24 hours ahead of any mining, with coins subsequently emitted substantially in accordance with the originally published schedule. Filter the rest.

XMR should be included with this tag as well because of the scam mining software they released on launch. It is was purposely "de-optimized" so that the developers and insiders could mine at 100x the speed of the normal user.

Smooth and friends claim that this was an oversight or an accident, just like Evan claims the same for that launch of xcoin/dash. Same issue, same tag?