I'm Kevin, here's my side.

[DamienBlack]

+ Mt Gox has clearly made several times more revenue (through trading fees) than this incident would cost them to completely absorb.

I have no idea if you are who you so you are. I also agree that it is highly improbably that a single user was storing so many bitcoins on mt gox. However, this statement is not true. You are claiming that Mt Gox has already made millions of dollars and could absorb this loss without going under and taking the entire bitcoin economy with them.

No, I'm not claiming that they could have millions of dollars. But I am claiming that they've made many hundreds or thousands of bitcoins per day. Take the public volume, times their fee, and make a wild guess at how much is moving on the dark pool to add on top of that. If they don't have enough in BTC to cover the entirety of this, they're doing something very very wrong.

They aren't making "hundreds or thousands of bitcoins a day". The volume is usually around $300,000 USD. Times .013 is 3900 dollars. Or about 260 bitcoins a day. That isn't enough.

[1714036328]

1714036328

[1714036328]

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[1714036328]

1714036328

[Synaptic]

You stole 643 btc. Congrats.

Every major exchange breaks trades. Too bad for you, consider yourself lucky if you don't get sued for the 643 btc.

Every major exchange has written policies saying when breaks will happen. MtGox specifically said they weren't a party to the trades, and had no policy for doing so.

I also haven't said what I would do with that 643.

Most exchanges have a general rule about 'clearly erroneous trades' - this is usually defined as 20%+ away from recent activity. Trades at .011 clearly fall under this globally accepted guideline.

Mtgox is charged with running a fair and orderly exchange. That obv did not happen here and he has no choice but to correct it. Again, you have balls asking for the rest after taking 643 btc.

Why couldn't it be a valid trade?

Because you and all your dumbasshole friends here think that BTC could NEVER be crashed by someone who just didn't give a fuck?

You all take your little play money market WAY too seriously...

[lemonginger]

No, I'm not claiming that they could have millions of dollars. But I am claiming that they've made many hundreds or thousands of bitcoins per day. Take the public volume, times their fee, and make a wild guess at how much is moving on the dark pool to add on top of that. If they don't have enough in BTC to cover the entirety of this, they're doing something very very wrong.

#1) Volume includes dark pool trading
#2) You are not claiming they have millions of dollars available, but you think they could cover the loss of over 300k bitcoins without being made insolvent?

[bitrebel]

I actually agree with OP 100%. This is Mt. Gox's responsibility to make right. Especially in light of numerous complains regarding security well before the plummet. The fact is they were in over their heads and they dont know what to do now. Who are they to roll back a market?

THEY allowed their system to be compromised. They alone. I dont care if it was an auditor. That auditor had authorization to access their files and was acting on authority of the owner. No difference. I have zero pity for Mt. Gox. The only right thing to do is to reimburse the original owner for everything that he lost (since there arent enough bitcoins available, they need to BUY them for him. Period.) and the OP be allowed to retain the bitcoins fairly purchased. If I had money in Mt. Gox at the time, I would have been furiously trying to buy, too. There were plenty of posts here that thought it was a legitimate selloff. The OP did nothing wrong. Period.

Agreed

[relative]

Every major exchange has written policies saying when breaks will happen. MtGox specifically said they weren't a party to the trades, and had no policy for doing so.

no exchange is party to the trades (except maybe the clearing house of futures exchanges).
this doesn't mean they can't break trades.

the ONLY thing he could claim is that they're not allowed to break trades because there was no policy/agreement. but even that I doubt.

I also haven't said what I would do with that 643.

you basically admitted that you knew at the time you withdrew the 643 that it was the loot of a hacker.

[bitcola]

Bitcoin is hardly a professional currency yet. It's an amateur one.

More of these things can be expected until the pros step in and start running things.


It's like comparing a street full of globalised company owned stores to a kid's fair at a school.

[gdrop]

Honestly, I think you should just keep the coins. I personally was sleeping when the crash happened, but as a matter of principle I don't think actual BTC transactions should be reversed once finalized in the chain. Reversing the trades on MtGox's servers, though, is up to the owners, as there aren't actual BTC transactions being added to the chain.

MtGox screwed up though, and they should take the loss.

[foggyb]

Executive summary:

1.) "I took advantage of an extraordinary event that turned out to be initiated by a rogue sell order, not legitimate trading."

2.) "Can I keep it? Look, here's why."

No, sorry. To allow the trade to stand would legitimize the attack, is that what you really want? (Besides bitcoins and dollars, I mean.)

+ 1,000

[soades]

When I signed up at Mt.Gox first thing I noticed was lack of user identity security. Definitely left themselves open to abuse.

[Insuremeplz]

I almost wish you would have cashed out and would now have much more leverage against MtGox. I wish you luck OP, and think you're in the right

[foggyb]

Honestly, I think you should just keep the coins. I personally was sleeping when the crash happened, but as a matter of principle I don't think actual BTC transactions should be reversed once finalized in the chain. Reversing the trades on MtGox's servers, though, is up to the owners, as there aren't actual BTC transactions being added to the chain.

MtGox screwed up though, and they should take the loss.

What would be honest about that?

[toasty]

I also haven't said what I would do with that 643.

you basically admitted that you knew at the time you withdrew the 643 that it was the loot of a hacker.

No, I had no way of knowing what was going on then, and still don't know. At first I thought it'd be safer trying to get a pile of bitcoins off a site if it possibly was hacked, but had absolutely no way of knowing.

[myrkul]

I feel for you, Kevin, I really do. Problem is, this isn't someone making a stupid trade, or even someone trying intentionally to crash the market. In either of those instances, I would support you in keeping not only the 643, but the full 259684. It wasn't though. It was a Hack. Which means that the poor guy whose BTC you got had nothing to do with the trade, which means that he was stolen from.

MtGox allowed the theft, so its their responsibility to fix it, which means returning things to the way they were before the hack.

This means you're out those BTC you didn't get out, And I would return the 643, as well. On the bright side, you get your cash back.

[Vladimir]

Talk to a lawyer, preferably one specialising in securities. Who knows you might get a settlement from mtgox and rest of the community terms and conditions.

You will not find any justice even if you deserve it on the forum.

[bitrebel]

I also haven't said what I would do with that 643.

you basically admitted that you knew at the time you withdrew the 643 that it was the loot of a hacker.

No, I had no way of knowing what was going on then, and still don't know. At first I thought it'd be safer trying to get a pile of bitcoins off a site if it possibly was hacked, but had absolutely no way of knowing.

I think you are smart Kevin. That should be rewarded. Not with stolen bitcoins, but first we need proof they were actually "stolen". Otherwise, they are and should be rightfully, yours.

[cunicula]

Kevin, this isn't something that can be decided with forum posts. Get a lawyer and keep your mouth shut in public.

[bitrebel]

I feel for you, Kevin, I really do. Problem is, this isn't someone making a stupid trade, or even someone trying intentionally to crash the market. In either of those instances, I would support you in keeping not only the 643, but the full 259684. It wasn't though. It was a Hack. Which means that the poor guy whose BTC you got had nothing to do with the trade, which means that he was stolen from.

MtGox allowed the theft, so its their responsibility to fix it, which means returning things to the way they were before the hack.

This means you're out those BTC you didn't get out, And I would return the 643, as well. On the bright side, you get your cash back.

We have no idea they were hacked, absolutely. We do not know they did not hack themselves.

[GeniuSxBoY]

[chihlidog]

I am astounded at the outpouring of support for MtGox here. Wow. MtGox allowed itself to be compromised, THEY are the ones responsible for settling things financially here. If they werent ready for this possibility, they shouldnt have been in the business.

[toasty]

Kevin, this isn't something that can be decided with forum posts. Get a lawyer and keep your mouth shut in public.

If I lawyer up, it's game over. The lawyers I talked to said the first thing I'd have to do would be to get an injunction, which would effectively start a run on MtGox's reserves, which I won't do.

If nothing more, I'd like to be a cautionary tale to everyone else and stop the misunderstandings that resulted from Mt Gox's poorly written statement.