I'm Kevin, here's my side.

[BCEmporium]

Got a different result because cut the column using Excel which gave me double floats (1.000.123 for 1,000.123). WTG Bill! What a nice piece of sh... spreadsheet software Excel is...  

[1713548197]

1713548197

[1713548197]

1713548197

[1713548197]

1713548197

[1713548197]

1713548197

[1713548197]

1713548197

[d.james]

There's only stupid users

[JonasKohlheim]

About my 51 million bitcoins post, i found what went wrong  
My excel transformed European Format numbers into American ones and changed numbers like 21.652,252 into  21 million....  
Sorry guys, but hey, it's not easy sometimes. Why can't we all just use the same formats throughout the entire world?

[d.james]

good thing you're not running mtgox.com...

or is it a bad thing? 

[Epinnoia]

A total of 51 million bitcoins got sold by 1 sell order this Sunday.

source?

http://pastebin.com/J0HXBjWu

That's from sunday, the price reached 0.01
In order to reach the price of 0.01, all these orders had to be cleared.
If you paste it in excel and do a count of the amount of bitcoins that people wanted to buy @ 0.01 or higher, then you can see that there needed to be sold a total of 51 million bitcoins in order to clear the whole bid-side of 0.01 or greater, which happened, but was impossible...

Obvious forge is obvious.

I opened that file, and I see nothing which indicates whether the lines are buy or sell orders, or a mixture of both.

[airdata]

fuck it... i think i might be on team kevin.  I've been pro roll back since I heard about what happened.  I still am, but after reading Kevin's long post he's obviously well educated (more than me at least )  My main issue is that the sell off was not legitimate.  It's akin to a bank robber stealing 1oz gold coins and then selling them all off at a flea market for $10 when people know they're worth $1500 each.  Sure, you're going to buy buy buy.  But at the end of the day, it's basically receiving stolen property which at least in the states is a crime.

I'm almost willing to think this option 3 as layed out by Kevin could be the best thing to do.  The rollback was obviously a hasty decision, as I'm sure in such a panic state it would be hard to think of what else to do.  Surely the idea of covering the losses didn't just come to mind.  A mainsteam type business would have insurance for things like this and it wouldn't be about coming out of pocket as the business operator.

Option 3: Mt Gox takes responsibility, and reimburses the original account owner's account to the best of their ability.

+ The exchange is forced to deal with the consequences of their negligent lapse in security
+ Faith in the trading market would be largely restored if not increased
+ Buyers who placed orders that were executed get what they paid for
+ Mt Gox has clearly made several times more revenue (through trading fees) than this incident would cost them to completely absorb.
+ If this became an expected feature of an exchange, only exchanges that actually protected our accounts would survive.
+ Mt Gox is the only party that can go after the auditor that they are claiming was responsible for this incident
- It is uncertain if Mt Gox actually has that much liquid reserve to do this fully.

I do however have my doubts about how option 3 would effect the bitcoin community.  How does that effect value to know that some guy just got nearly 300k bitcoins for a little more than the money you've insvested in mining equipment over the past month?  

If a bank is robbed and the robber simply transfers money to other peoples accounts, what do you think the bank would do?  They're not going to let people keep the ill-gotten monies.

I just know I would not want to be MTGox.  And if I were the guy w\ 500k bitcoins, I'd feel obligated to lessen the blow to Kevin for being a stand up guy.  Kevin as he said could have simply hit withdraw over and over again and taken out much more btc than he did, but he's obviously an honest guy w\ morals.

[d.james]

In a real debate, team Kevin would be winning right now,
but the hammer is in gox' hand, so...

[bitsalame]

@d.james
If the jury (us) reach a consensus, it is a great moment to see the impartiality of the judge.
If we all agree that it is plain ridiculous, and that actually Kevin should get compensated somehow, but MtGox takes an arbitrary position.

For me, that will be a ticker telling me to GTFO.
And I might do it if that happens.

[Batouzo]

If a bank is robbed and the robber simply transfers money to other peoples accounts, what do you think the bank would do?  They're not going to let people keep the ill-gotten monies.

You buy exotic fruits. Later you found out you got them for 1 cent but they cost 10 dollars a day before. Later it turns out it was becasuse the baazar owner left doors unlocked and some people rearranged price tags.

Now YOU are called the thief.
And the guys that bought apples for 3 or 10 USD are also - well perhaps not called thiefs - but they are not getting the apples they dealed and payed for (well they will have their money returned, but they would prefer the deal to be carried out and shop owner is not reimbursing this).

[Terpie]

@d.james
If the jury (us) reach a consensus, it is a great moment to see the impartiality of the judge.
If we all agree that it is plain ridiculous, and that actually Kevin should get compensated somehow, but MtGox takes an arbitrary position.

For me, that will be a ticker telling me to GTFO.
And I might do it if that happens.

Unfortunately every poll shows overwhelmingly a preference for a rollback.

[Batouzo]

@d.james
If the jury (us) reach a consensus, it is a great moment to see the impartiality of the judge.
If we all agree that it is plain ridiculous, and that actually Kevin should get compensated somehow, but MtGox takes an arbitrary position.

For me, that will be a ticker telling me to GTFO.
And I might do it if that happens.

Unfortunately every poll shows overwhelmingly a preference for a rollback.

Every poll shows overwhelming support for wolves to eat the sheep. So what?

There are just few people that gamed the AUCTION system when the price was very attractive.

[Nescio]

So yes, one account with 500k BTC can fill every buy order on the market at the time,

and still have about 260K left waiting to be sold at 0.01 each.

Heh, so could it be that Kevin actually saved Mt. Gox? If his buy order went in just as the hacker's sell was winding down and he was the first to buy in quantity, Kevin snapped up the balance and the hacker could not transfer out anything because he sold the complete balance (didn't see that coming). Unless Kevin was the hacker or associated with of course.

Still, rollback is the fair thing to do.

[airdata]

So yes, one account with 500k BTC can fill every buy order on the market at the time,

and still have about 260K left waiting to be sold at 0.01 each.

Heh, so could it be that Kevin actually saved Mt. Gox? If his buy order went in just as the hacker's sell was winding down and he was the first to buy in quantity, Kevin snapped up the balance and the hacker could not transfer out anything because he sold the complete balance (didn't see that coming). Unless Kevin was the hacker or associated with of course.

Still, rollback is the fair thing to do.

BUAHHAHA... you honestly can't write this stuff.

How sweet would that be that this hacker is going along and mr Kevin swoops in and buys all the btc lol

[makomk]

So yes, one account with 500k BTC can fill every buy order on the market at the time,

and still have about 260K left waiting to be sold at 0.01 each.

Which Kevin then got with his buy order. There's even apparently evidence in another thread that he did actually place the order after the market started crashing. Looking good so far.

[myrkul]

You buy exotic fruits. Later you found out you got them for 1 cent but they cost 10 dollars a day before. Later it turns out it was becasuse the baazar owner left doors unlocked and some people rearranged price tags.

Now YOU are called the thief.
And the guys that bought apples for 3 or 10 USD are also - well perhaps not called thiefs - but they are not getting the apples they dealed and payed for (well they will have their money returned, but they would prefer the deal to be carried out and shop owner is not reimbursing this).

Nobody called Kevin, or any of the 5 or 6 other lucky traders who got a piece of that pie, a thief (Tux implied it, but nobody rational would steal that much money and then come forward like Kevin did). Option 3 would be a fine idea, If it were not such a large amount that got traded, and it weren't such a C-F as to the source of those funds. As it stands, a roll-back is the sanest way to get everyone as close to made whole as possible, and then they can proceed with paying back anyone who got shafted as a result.

[elk-tamer]

Nobody called Kevin, or any of the 5 or 6 other lucky traders who got a piece of that pie, a thief (Tux implied it, but nobody rational would steal that much money and then come forward like Kevin did). Option 3 would be a fine idea, If it were not such a large amount that got traded, and it weren't such a C-F as to the source of those funds. As it stands, a roll-back is the sanest way to get everyone as close to made whole as possible, and then they can proceed with paying back anyone who got shafted as a result.

It's rational if you realize you're going to be caught anyway. Did he come forward before he thought he'd be tracked down, or after? Seemed like after to me.

[Batouzo]

Nobody called Kevin, or any of the 5 or 6 other lucky traders who got a piece of that pie, a thief (Tux implied it, but nobody rational would steal that much money and then come forward like Kevin did). Option 3 would be a fine idea, If it were not such a large amount that got traded, and it weren't such a C-F as to the source of those funds. As it stands, a roll-back is the sanest way to get everyone as close to made whole as possible, and then they can proceed with paying back anyone who got shafted as a result.

It's rational if you realize you're going to be caught anyway. Did he come forward before he thought he'd be tracked down, or after? Seemed like after to me.

Why should he, bitcoin is rather wild west.  If you want a government regulated thing, try government bonds or something.

[barrymac]

Well of course the polls favour a rollback. When a market moves this fast there is going to be a very slim proportion of traders that gain!!

Surely we should refer to examples in the traditional financial system. This kind of thing has happened and does happen from time to time.

[Phil21]

It's rational if you realize you're going to be caught anyway. Did he come forward before he thought he'd be tracked down, or after? Seemed like after to me.

He came forward within minutes (lets call it an hour or two so I'm not later called a liar) of this all going down, directly to the owner of MtGox via IRC.  At that time it was attempted to keep things a bit quiet on the public side for obvious reasons.

Chat logs will confirm this, should it ever come to that.

This was also mentioned in the OP.

[Rassah]

Oh, hey, how about Solution #5:

Take a vote for rolling back versus letting transactions stay. Since it's fairly obvious that the 500kBTC sale was from the pooled account holding everyone's money,

+ Those who were against the roll back have a  fair (% weighted) portion of the stolen money withdrawn from their accounts to pay for the theft, letting them keep their sense of morality about it.
+ Those who are for the roll back are compensated partially from MtGox's own wallet and partially from the other people
+ MtGox takes a hit in the wallet, but that hit is somewhat mitigated
+ People who managed to get away with the ridiculously low buys get to keep their money.

This way everyone wins!