I'm starting to get fucking pissed (BFL)

[nottm28]

Oh don't start him off please - I am following this and don't want to see a million posts from xian about bfl

[1715284009]

1715284009

[firefop]

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week.

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

nothing from bfl was ever priced in btc, it was always USD. You're making the mistake of attempting to hold bfl accountable for the price change in btc...

Yes, it sure sucks all those coins I mined and sold when btc was 6 bucks, or 10, or 20... sure wish I'd saved more...

[-ck]

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week.

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

nothing from bfl was ever priced in btc, it was always USD. You're making the mistake of attempting to hold bfl accountable for the price change in btc...

Just to be the devil's advocate, what do you think BFL would have done should the value of BTC fallen by half instead of risen by ten times?

[Jack1Rip1BurnIt]

Just stopping by to say I ordered a Jalepeno (later upgraded to a Little Single) June 23 2012, I actually received the device July 03 2013. I have been mining for 2 weeks straight on it and have now recovered all $ spent on the device. I will proceed to make profits for as many days as possible from here on out. The product I received is fantastic and looks sleek as hell too! With that being said I think Butterfly Labs is a FUBAR company that has no idea how to handle a schedule. I will not purchase another device from BFL until the shipping rate is down to a week or two maximum and the price of the asics have dropped dramatically. With all this competition starting to pop up the prices will begin to drop, and there will be at least one company that outshines the rest. Whomever is the best will receive my money. Till then...FUCK BFL's bullshit!

P.S.- They gave me a coffee mug and made it all better  

[Syke]

If it would make 20 btc a day and the btc value in $ would have dropped to $0.20, you would still have a party I guess? Fact is my jalapeno paid back the $ spent on it in 10 days.

Yes, that's right! When you get more btc than you spent, you've made a profitable investment. When you get less btc, you've lost.

[k9quaint]

If for example you got your 60gh single upgrade right now... ROI in under a week.

Singles cost 200 btc back then and now generate 1 btc per day. ROI is already at 6 months assuming no difficulty increases. But as we all know, there's lots of increases on the way. A single delivered now will never break even.

nothing from bfl was ever priced in btc, it was always USD. You're making the mistake of attempting to hold bfl accountable for the price change in btc...

Just to be the devil's advocate, what do you think BFL would have done should the value of BTC fallen by half instead of risen by ten times?

It doesn't matter what the BTC exchange rate is when you buy mining equipment. It also does not matter whether the exchange rate rises or falls. You can calculate whether or not you should purchase for any given set of difficulty growth rates and starting rate.

When you buy mining equipment you are making an investment in BTC. Buying ASIC mining equipment provides a variable amount of BTC. Buying the BTC from an exchange provides a fixed amount of BTC. If you get more BTC from mining than from buying BTC off an exchange, then mining might be a good investment. If you get more BTC from the exchange than from buying mining equipment, then mining would be a bad investment.

BTC cannot have negative value, ergo (all other things being equal) more BTC is always better than less BTC.
Nobody is holding BFL responsible for the exchange rate.
BFL customers from June 2012 could not have predicted that their investment in BFL was inferior to purchasing BTC off an exchange because of the "Two More Weeks(TM)" marketing that went on.

[-ck]

Just to be the devil's advocate, what do you think BFL would have done should the value of BTC fallen by half instead of risen by ten times?

-Snip lots of good comments-

All your comments are valid, but the question was what do you think BFL would have done?

If you had bought your hardware with $1500 worth of bitcoin, they're refunding you with $1500 worth of USD because that amount of bitcoin is now worth $15000 (for argument's sake), but if bitcoin had dropped and that amount of bitcoin was now worth $750, do you think they would have refunded you with $1500 worth of USD or with $750 worth of BTC?

[k9quaint]

Just to be the devil's advocate, what do you think BFL would have done should the value of BTC fallen by half instead of risen by ten times?

-Snip lots of good comments-

All your comments are valid, but the question was what do you think BFL would have done?

I am not sure I understand the question. Regarding what exactly?

If the price of BTC fell by half from the price @ June 2012? That would put it at a price of about $4 per BTC. That might flatten the difficulty curve in the future (after all the pre-ordered ASICs are delivered to sad pandas). This would give BFL customers a better shot at breaking even in BTC terms.

The price fall would be a great opportunity to acquire BTC from exchanges, for the people who have capital available.

I am not sure how that would make BFL work bugs out faster or build units faster. Unless they have been holding units back and mining with them, which I think unlikely but possible.

[-ck]

Check my edit.

[Cluster2k]

A 60GH single delivered today makes $3,410 a month, Syke and facts, bleh

Mining hardware generates bitcoins. Not dollars. So it only makes sense to calculate ROI based on bitcoins. Bitcoins spent vs. bitcoins generated. Anything else is just to soothe your losses.

I purchased my Jalapenos with USD, not bitcoins.  ROI for me with postage and 2Gh cost included was about three weeks.  I guess you could say I won the speculation game by paying with dollars as bitcoins went up in value during the time it took BFL to deliver.  Had it been the other way around the people paying with bitcoins would be cheering now.  All my costs, from electricity to the mortgage I pay for the place where the Jalapenos sit is paid in anything but bitcoins.

Bitcoin is a very high risk, high reward tool.  We all understand that and accept the inherent risks.

[k9quaint]

Check my edit.

Got it.
My position has been if customers paid with X BTC, they should be refunded with X BTC. BFL said they were putting the funds in a separate escrow and not using them for operating costs. There should have been no reason to convert the BTC to another currency under those circumstances. On one hand, BFL would have been taking a currency risk at that point because their liabilities are in USD. On the other hand, they demanded a 100% deposit instead of a more sensible 10% deposit to reserve a unit. It always baffled me why they took the pre-order funds if they were not using them for operating costs. It also makes no sense allowing someone to pay in BTC but have to give bank information (or PayPal) to get a refund.

Having said that, BFL would have probably refunded in BTC if they stood to make USD from it. If I paid a Peruvian company $100 for an Alpaca rug, I would expect $100 back upon a refund regardless of how the currencies have moved in the intervening time.

I purchased my Jalapenos with USD, not bitcoins.

How you paid is not exactly relevant. What is relevant is how many BTC could you have bought off MtGox instead of BFL at the time you placed your order. Compare that with how many BTC you have earned to date. That is the measure of whether a mine is profitable. Can I make the commodity for less than I can buy it off the market?

[polarhei]

My advice: get a refund and don't look back.

Agreed. I think the behind person is too greedy while they do slowly to keep us believing us

[mezzomix]

My advice: get a refund and don't look back.

Agreed. I think the behind person is too greedy while they do slowly to keep us believing us

Well, I asked BFL for a refund in Jan 2013. They ignored my request and now I lost almost everything. Thank you BFL!

How do you get a refund when the vendor ignores your requests?!

[Flying Hellfish]

My advice: get a refund and don't look back.

Agreed. I think the behind person is too greedy while they do slowly to keep us believing us

Well, I asked BFL for a refund in Jan 2013. They ignored my request and now I lost almost everything. Thank you BFL!

How do you get a refund when the vendor ignores your requests?!

BFL is in clear violation of FTC regulations concerning the mail order rule.

If you paid with paypal, call them up (even if outside the 45 day buyer protection window offered by PP) and explain the situation.

If you paid with an alternate method the only recourse you have at this point is the FTC.

Direct link to FTC compliant form:

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/FTC_Wizard.aspx?Lang=en


WHERE TO GO FOR HELP

For more information about the Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule, call the Federal Trade Commission toll-free: 1-877-FTC-HELP; write: Federal Trade Commission, Consumer Response Center, 600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Washington, DC 20580; or visit: www.ftc.gov.

You also may want to contact relevant trade associations, such as the Direct Marketing Association. Contact the DMA’s Washington, DC office at: 202-955-5030; write: 1111 19th Street, N.W., Suite 1100, Washington, DC 20036-3603; or visit: www.the-dma.org.

Your local U.S. Postal Service or consumer protection agency may offer additional assistance. State and local governments also may have requirements with which you must comply. You should consult appropriate state agencies for information about laws that affect your business.




For More Information

The FTC works for the consumer to prevent fraudulent, deceptive, and unfair business practices in the marketplace and to provide information to help consumers spot, stop, and avoid them. To file a complaint or to get free information on consumer issues, visit ftc.gov or call toll-free, 1-877-FTC-HELP (1-877-382-4357); TTY: 1-866-653-4261. The FTC enters consumer complaints into the Consumer Sentinel Network, a secure online database and investigative tool used by hundreds of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies in the U.S. and abroad.

[YipYip]

To be honest the nails for the BFL coffin have arrived ........the avalon mass delivery of chips are hear !!!

It may be a slow death (or fast one if sonny has packed his bags with the account numbers )

But BFL are history.......or they hold true too the 60000 -(~3000 of delivered units) commitements that they have made ..instead of   all of the never ending lies and bullshit........they would needto totally change
there attitude & basically everything about them as a company in the next 30 days....lolz

yeah thats going to happen or maybe not 30 days ..how about "2 weeks" ...lolz

[Cluster2k]

I purchased my Jalapenos with USD, not bitcoins.

How you paid is not exactly relevant. What is relevant is how many BTC could you have bought off MtGox instead of BFL at the time you placed your order. Compare that with how many BTC you have earned to date. That is the measure of whether a mine is profitable. Can I make the commodity for less than I can buy it off the market?

Indeed, I could have purchased a lot more bitcoins for the same USD mid last year than I can now and overall had more money, but I guess the question is would I have?  For me the answer is no.  Woulda, coulda, shoulda is a prime enemy for any trader.  I preferred to buy mining hardware rather than speculate on the bitcoin price itself.  Even the most enthusiastic hyper bull did not predict this year's $266 bubble in mid 2012.  In hindsight BFL's many delays cost a lot of people considerable profit.  But hindsight is 20/20 as they say and there's nothing that can be done about it now.  If anyone can confirm that a bitcoin will be worth $2k this time next year however please feel free to drop me a line  

Ultimately for me bitcoin is a way to make USD and then convert them to my home currency to actually use.  Pretty much any commodity is the same, whether it's gold, silver, platinum, oil, etc.  The value has to be measured against the currency of the realm.  I can't go into my local supermarket with 1/20oz of gold and buy groceries, and neither can I spend a bitcoin there.

[k9quaint]

I purchased my Jalapenos with USD, not bitcoins.

How you paid is not exactly relevant. What is relevant is how many BTC could you have bought off MtGox instead of BFL at the time you placed your order. Compare that with how many BTC you have earned to date. That is the measure of whether a mine is profitable. Can I make the commodity for less than I can buy it off the market?

Indeed, I could have purchased a lot more bitcoins for the same USD mid last year than I can now and overall had more money, but I guess the question is would I have?  For me the answer is no.  Woulda, coulda, shoulda is a prime enemy for any trader.  I preferred to buy mining hardware rather than speculate on the bitcoin price itself.  Even the most enthusiastic hyper bull did not predict this year's $266 bubble in mid 2012.  In hindsight BFL's many delays cost a lot of people considerable profit.  But hindsight is 20/20 as they say and there's nothing that can be done about it now.  If anyone can confirm that a bitcoin will be worth $2k this time next year however please feel free to drop me a line  

^Absolutely.
You made a trading decision based on flawed data (the estimated difficulty level at the time BFL ships your unit). Only hindsight would reveal the extent of BFL's delays. I was not expecting you to divine this back in June 2012. 

[Bicknellski]

Just remember what you have learned and apply it today. Lesson learned. BFL = footnote in Bitcoin History.

[PuertoLibre]

I am waiting for them to do mass shipping.

Nothing like disappointed customers to make your day.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

The FTC works for the consumer to prevent fraudulent, deceptive, and unfair business practices in the marketplace and to provide information to help consumers spot, stop, and avoid them. To file a complaint or to get free information on consumer issues, visit ftc.gov or call toll-free, 1-877-FTC-HELP (1-877-382-4357); TTY: 1-866-653-4261. The FTC enters consumer complaints into the Consumer Sentinel Network, a secure online database and investigative tool used by hundreds of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies in the U.S. and abroad.