Bitcoin is being killed by governments and nobody seems to care!

[bytemaster]

You are wrong to assume 49% are basically OK... this 49% recognizes there is no REAL CHOICE and could not find anyone WORTH voting for.  End result is that 75% of the public is actively against the man in charge and only 25% voted for him.   Unfortunately, of the 25% that voted for him, half of those people were really voting AGAINST the other guy who they thought was worse.  End result is that only 12% of the population REALLY endorses and supports the policies of the elected official.

[1714840607]

1714840607

[Atruk]

BTC-e have just switched on their OKPAY service again for a few days, to allow people to move their cash into their exchange, before they switch off the service for another 2 months.

We are seeing all the various financial services throughout the world getting their cogs spun up to make the movement of fiat to a bitcoin exchange so difficult that without already having your cash in the exchange, you can't take advantage of any movements in value.  If you do want to move your fiat into bitcoins the whole process is taking longer and longer - last time it took me 2 weeks.

I don't expect US users to note how difficult it is for the rest of the world, but at this rate its going to be impossible to get enough bitcoins / altcoins into the mainstream to gain enough traction to make any success happen.

Anyone else having this problem, or am I just looking in the wrong place? - BTW, I really don't like MTGox, I don't trust them, and to only use that service to get your bitcoins seems to defeat to object of having them!

Probably in the wrong place. Have you considered OTC?

[Hawker]

You are wrong to assume 49% are basically OK... this 49% recognizes there is no REAL CHOICE and could not find anyone WORTH voting for.  End result is that 75% of the public is actively against the man in charge and only 25% voted for him.   Unfortunately, of the 25% that voted for him, half of those people were really voting AGAINST the other guy who they thought was worse.  End result is that only 12% of the population REALLY endorses and supports the policies of the elected official.

What world do you live in?  Where I live, every election has loads of local angry candidates fighting on local issues.  OK they lose but that doesn't mean there is no choice.  It means that people did not agree with them!

Just cos you can't win an election does not mean the process is invalid. 

[bytemaster]

You are wrong to assume 49% are basically OK... this 49% recognizes there is no REAL CHOICE and could not find anyone WORTH voting for.  End result is that 75% of the public is actively against the man in charge and only 25% voted for him.   Unfortunately, of the 25% that voted for him, half of those people were really voting AGAINST the other guy who they thought was worse.  End result is that only 12% of the population REALLY endorses and supports the policies of the elected official.

What world do you live in?  Where I live, every election has loads of local angry candidates fighting on local issues.  OK they lose but that doesn't mean there is no choice.  It means that people did not agree with them!

Just cos you can't win an election does not mean the process is invalid. 

The process is invalid because the winner claims moral authority to execute violence against those who did not consent to the results of the election via contract.   They claim the right to declare 'right and wrong' and to then 'reward' and 'punish' people based on an arbitrary definition of right and wrong with NO REGARD to the fact that the MEANS by which they exercise power (pointing a gun at people) is universally recognized as wrong and immoral for any other individual to do except in immediate self defense.   

In your system of many choices, half are still voting for the lesser of N evils. 

[Viceroy]

Dude, we don't "execute violence against those who did not consent" except those who are in jail/prison.  This is a modern country.  We ended slavery one hundred fifty years ago.

"(pointing a gun at people)"

Facts or it didn't happen.

[Hawker]

You are wrong to assume 49% are basically OK... this 49% recognizes there is no REAL CHOICE and could not find anyone WORTH voting for.  End result is that 75% of the public is actively against the man in charge and only 25% voted for him.   Unfortunately, of the 25% that voted for him, half of those people were really voting AGAINST the other guy who they thought was worse.  End result is that only 12% of the population REALLY endorses and supports the policies of the elected official.

What world do you live in?  Where I live, every election has loads of local angry candidates fighting on local issues.  OK they lose but that doesn't mean there is no choice.  It means that people did not agree with them!

Just cos you can't win an election does not mean the process is invalid. 

The process is invalid because the winner claims moral authority to execute violence against those who did not consent to the results of the election via contract.   They claim the right to declare 'right and wrong' and to then 'reward' and 'punish' people based on an arbitrary definition of right and wrong with NO REGARD to the fact that the MEANS by which they exercise power (pointing a gun at people) is universally recognized as wrong and immoral for any other individual to do except in immediate self defense.   

In your system of many choices, half are still voting for the lesser of N evils. 

So when you lose the result is because there is no REAL CHOICE and then the process is invalid because you think its immoral.

Who made you Ayatollah?

[Elwar]

Dude, we don't "execute violence against those who did not consent" except those who are in jail/prison.  This is a modern country.  We ended slavery one hundred fifty years ago.

"(pointing a gun at people)"

Facts or it didn't happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown

April 2007
 On April 24, U.S. District Judge Steven McAuliffe sentences Ed and Elaine Brown to five years and three months in prison each for concealing earnings and failing to pay federal income tax on nearly $2 million of income. Neither of the Browns appeared in court for the sentencing.

May 2007
 On May 18, Ed and Elaine Brown are reported as stating they do not intend to appeal their convictions on federal tax evasion charges. They said they have abandoned "man's law" and now follow only the rules and laws put forth in the Bible.
 
June 2007
 On June 7, police, SWAT teams, and armored vehicles are seen gathering in a field near the Browns' home. United States Marshal Stephen Monier confirms that one Brown supporter was detained near the Browns' property. Several sources later identify the Browns' supporter as a man named Danny Riley, and state that he was detained while walking the Browns' dog, Zoe. Monier's office later releases a press statement indicating that the government agents were not raiding the Browns' home, but were in the area to serve a warrant for the seizure of Elaine Brown's dental office in West Lebanon, New Hampshire. (Subsequent testimony at trial revealed that this operation was in fact an arrest attempt.) In the evening of June 7, Riley records a video describing his encounter with and detainment by federal agents earlier that day. In the video Riley claims that one camouflaged agent fired two shots over his head after he fled from the agent once happening upon him hiding in the woods near the Browns' property. Riley claims that after being tackled and tasered, he was threatened with 15 years in jail by the FBI unless he told the media that the siege was expected and planned for, and was not the outcome of an abortive attempt to serve a warrant.[

[Hawker]

Dude, we don't "execute violence against those who did not consent" except those who are in jail/prison.  This is a modern country.  We ended slavery one hundred fifty years ago.

"(pointing a gun at people)"

Facts or it didn't happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown

April 2007
 On April 24, U.S. District Judge Steven McAuliffe sentences Ed and Elaine Brown to five years and three months in prison each for concealing earnings and failing to pay federal income tax on nearly $2 million of income. Neither of the Browns appeared in court for the sentencing.
...snip...

Seems fair enough.  You can't just "opt out" of the stuff you don't like.  If you have fiat money, then you render unto Ceaser what is due to Ceaser.

[Elwar]

Are you saying that anyone who does not pay taxes and still uses government services is a thief?

No. Just those who don't pay their entire required share, as laid out by the law.

So some people can not pay taxes and use government services and not be considered thieves and other people can not pay taxes and use government services and be considered thieves?

Are those people forcing the government at the point of a gun to provide those services?

[Viceroy]

Approximately 50% of Americans 'pay no taxes' and we ALL benefit from services.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/only-53-percent-pay-income-tax.htm

[Hawker]

Are you saying that anyone who does not pay taxes and still uses government services is a thief?

No. Just those who don't pay their entire required share, as laid out by the law.

So some people can not pay taxes and use government services and not be considered thieves and other people can not pay taxes and use government services and be considered thieves?

Are those people forcing the government at the point of a gun to provide those services?

Doesn't matter.  They have to pay.  There is no such thing as a perfect system that makes everyone happy.

[Hawker]

Approximately 50% of Americans 'pay no taxes' and we ALL benefit from services.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/only-53-percent-pay-income-tax.htm

Did you miss the word "income" there?  Almost all people pay taxes of some kind. 

[Viceroy]

Yes I did.

Edit  +income

[Hawker]

Yes I did.

Edit  +income

[Anon136]

I would do whatever the majority wanted.

If the majority wanted you to kill me for not paying taxes, then you would kill, right?

Would you feel proud of yourself?

Maybe you should just pay taxes?  Even in the most libertarian of societies there will be things you have to pay for.

of course but we would like to have a choice in WHO should be providing those things that we have to pay for. with taxation there is no choice, the government will make that choice for you.

[alkuluku]

A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51 percent of the people may take away the rights of the other 49.

That's not how the us government works.

The president isn't chosen by popular vote, and presidents have lost the popular vote and still won the election. Representatives and senators are voted in by localities and represent the interests of the individual states they serve (not 51% of the country).
 
51% of the votes in this country gets you nothing.

That's a false argument. Maybe it would be better to say democracy in the US is tyranny of 70% against the 30% (70% of the votes basically guarantees that you'll win in any US election, period).

Keep in mind that even if it was a popular vote with a 51% majority rule, because the participation rate is so ridiculously low (2008 was a highly anomalous 60%, usually it's around 50%), in reality only 26% of the voting eligible population would establish the majority rule...

That's 49% of the population saying that they are basically OK with whoever wins and 51% who care enough to vote.  Which makes sense - the US is not going through any fundamental upheaval so you'd expect most people to be indifferent as to who wins elections.

"Democracy" is tyranny of 1% against the 99%, but sadly most of the 99% are sheep and don't see this.

[BTCoder]

A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51 percent of the people may take away the rights of the other 49.

That's not how the us government works.

The president isn't chosen by popular vote, and presidents have lost the popular vote and still won the election. Representatives and senators are voted in by localities and represent the interests of the individual states they serve (not 51% of the country).
 
51% of the votes in this country gets you nothing.

That's a false argument. Maybe it would be better to say democracy in the US is tyranny of 70% against the 30% (70% of the votes basically guarantees that you'll win in any US election, period).

Keep in mind that even if it was a popular vote with a 51% majority rule, because the participation rate is so ridiculously low (2008 was a highly anomalous 60%, usually it's around 50%), in reality only 26% of the voting eligible population would establish the majority rule...

That's 49% of the population saying that they are basically OK with whoever wins and 51% who care enough to vote.  Which makes sense - the US is not going through any fundamental upheaval so you'd expect most people to be indifferent as to who wins elections.

"Democracy" is tyranny of 1% against the 99%, but sadly most of the 99% are sheep and don't see this.

I agree completly

[SEC agent]

Are you saying that anyone who does not pay taxes and still uses government services is a thief?

No. Just those who don't pay their entire required share, as laid out by the law.

So some people can not pay taxes and use government services and not be considered thieves and other people can not pay taxes and use government services and be considered thieves?

Yes, if we are referring to income tax (which is what most people are referring to when they complain about "taxes"). It would be asinine to expect people who are below the poverty level and live on a fixed government income to pay income tax.

However, these people still pay back into the system through sales taxes, and often (even disproportionally) "sin" taxes such as liquor and tobacco, as well as "stupidity" taxes like the lotto, etc. So no one really gets by tax free.

[bytemaster]

Approximately 50% of Americans 'pay no taxes' and we ALL benefit from services.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/only-53-percent-pay-income-tax.htm

Did you miss the word "income" there?  Almost all people pay taxes of some kind.  

Did you forget to subtract out the NET benefits people receive vs taxes paid?   Many people receive more benefits than taxes paid via sales tax, gas, etc.   What about the NEGATIVE 'benefits' that people people were forced to pay for that actually worked AGAINST them such as paying for immoral wars, foreign aid, subsidizing their competition?   Regulatory expenses and delays and downright outlawing honest livelihoods?

Also since when does one party get to dictate the price someone else has to pay for the service received whether wanted or not?  If I show up at an intersection, wash your window, then demand $1000 at gun point on the grounds that 'you benefited' by the services I provided despite the fact that I left smears on your previously already clean window?  

[Hawker]

Approximately 50% of Americans 'pay no taxes' and we ALL benefit from services.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/only-53-percent-pay-income-tax.htm

Did you miss the word "income" there?  Almost all people pay taxes of some kind.  

Did you forget to subtract out the NET benefits people receive vs taxes paid?   Many people receive more benefits than taxes paid via sales tax, gas, etc.   What about the NEGATIVE 'benefits' that people people were forced to pay for that actually worked AGAINST them such as paying for immoral wars, foreign aid, subsidizing their competition?   Regulatory expenses and delays and downright outlawing honest livelihoods?

Also since when does one party get to dictate the price someone else has to pay for the service received whether wanted or not?  If I show up at an intersection, wash your window, then demand $1000 at gun point on the grounds that 'you benefited' by the services I provided despite the fact that I left smears on your previously already clean window?  

So, make your case and if you can't find a politician who agrees with you, stand for election and see if you can get the votes.  I'm sure you will find persuading people to sure that the blind and aged stop getting Medicare an interesting experience.  I doubt you'll get many votes.

The logic here is simple.  Government is something the vast majority of people want.  All human institutions are a mess.  Democracy is a human institution so it too will be a mess.  But no better system has been found so you have to make the best of it.