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Author Topic: [TAT.VIRTUALMINE]  (Read 39627 times)
Eric Muyser
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June 04, 2013, 12:43:50 PM
 #101

So, yes it applies to the next difficulty in fact.

Sorry, I should be more clear. Yes, it technically applies to the next difficulty. I said that earlier, when I agreed with Deprived. What I mean is TAT did this for additional capital. I don't expect TAT wants to give his new capital back so soon. I don't see the point. AM keeps maintains or increases their hashrate, the difficulty goes up, he pays less dividends. It's a loan that he isn't making enough to pay initially but slowly is able to cover it, then it's just free money. He did the math, I don't know what it is, but I'm sure it ends up with free several thousand dollars at some point in the future. At least a few months, depending on AM.

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Eric Muyser
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June 04, 2013, 12:45:53 PM
 #102

Read my previous comment on faster difficulty means TAT has less reason to "pull a fast one". It's like you guys are throwing 2 different competing arguments at eachother for why this is a bad bond, but they both conflict logically.

Try taking it for what it is, and read the mans words.

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Eric Muyser
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June 04, 2013, 12:48:38 PM
 #103

Also, here is exactly why you cannot use YAMBC as an example:



ASICs changes the game, just like the effect GPUs and FPGAs had on the mining difficulty.

We'll see if that makes any difference soon enough. Its share price still hasn't felt an impact. It's also still going to be sitting at nice interest per week. Higher than AM, and people buy into AM right before dividends. There's no reason to bail yet.

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June 04, 2013, 12:53:01 PM
 #104

Since you seem to be really committed to it, let's have a 100 BTC wager - this vs Coinlenders over 3 months. Escrowed with John. Let me know and we can make a new thread.
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June 04, 2013, 01:52:08 PM
 #105

I'm simply saying it was built to be used an instrument to anyone that understands how to use it, as well as any that don't.


"as well as any that don't."

Is this where the incentive comes from?
Eric Muyser
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June 04, 2013, 01:55:00 PM
 #106

Since you seem to be really committed to it, let's have a 100 BTC wager - this vs Coinlenders over 3 months. Escrowed with John. Let me know and we can make a new thread.

It's not about this vs Coinlenders. (Where did that come from?) It's just about this bond being just fine. You're the one coming into a thread with theories as to why it's bad in a hypothetical future, when it's doing just fine in the present reality.

In any case, I don't have 100 BTC, and I'm going to agree to disagree. If you're doing well with Coinlenders, that's great. Cheers sir.

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June 04, 2013, 02:10:04 PM
 #107

How would you get on the other side of this currently?

This issue is logically a bet against network difficulty increase.

Are there any securities or derivatives that would place you on the other side?
ThickAsThieves (OP)
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June 04, 2013, 02:22:38 PM
 #108

How would you get on the other side of this currently?

This issue is logically a bet against network difficulty increase.

Are there any securities or derivatives that would place you on the other side?

https://bitfunder.com/asset/CoinBr.iDiff-O
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June 04, 2013, 02:46:45 PM
 #109

An argument against this bond and all other like it is basicly an argument against mining it self.
a GPU for example pays decreasing "dividents" over time and has diminising resale value
as the idea with mining is to sell your hardware at a price at a point that will allow you to make a profit
it is exactly the same here

..will the dividents be enough or the price decrease little enough to make a profit in the end?
Thats up for everyone to deside by himself
I dont see this as a sure win or a sure loss and propably will be both win and loss for some ppl...
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June 04, 2013, 03:01:03 PM
 #110

Since you seem to be really committed to it, let's have a 100 BTC wager - this vs Coinlenders over 3 months. Escrowed with John. Let me know and we can make a new thread.
You are coinlenders arent you?
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June 04, 2013, 03:44:22 PM
 #111

How would you get on the other side of this currently?

This issue is logically a bet against network difficulty increase.

Are there any securities or derivatives that would place you on the other side?

It's not as black and white as being a bet against network difficulty increase.

Investing is a bet that difficulty won't rise at a fast enough rate to make investing in this unprofitable.  It's not quite the same thing.

TAT's bet (in launching the security at all) is that there's enough people willing to buy at an unprofitable price (or a break-even/marginally proftable one that gives him cheap capital) to justify the listing cost and effort of maintaining it.  He's on a safe bet there.

There'll be a security allowing you to bet on the other side, hopefully within a few days.
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June 04, 2013, 04:25:00 PM
Last edit: June 04, 2013, 05:09:22 PM by EskimoBob
 #112

Can you explain what you mean by "backed by ... ASICMINER shares"? Does this mean that TAT.VM holds shares of ASICMINER, and these shares belong to bond holders? Or, does it just mean that TAT.VM promises to hold a certain number of shares of ASICMINER as assurance that TAT.VM dividends will be paid?

Also, does "ASICMINER shares that represent an amount of hashing power" mean average hashing power per ASICMINER share? For example, the current ASICMINER hashing power is about 20 Th/s, or about 50 Mh/s/share, so each TAT.VM share would be backed by 1/50th of an ASICMINER share, right?

Finally, in addition to mining, a portion of ASICMINER dividends is based on the profits from sales of hardware. What happens to this portion of the dividends?

TAT.VM promises to hold a certain number of ASICMINER shares as extra assurance that the daily payouts will be made. This is in addition to the confidence that I have enough personal bitcoin to make payouts, even if I didn't hold backing assets.

Your understanding of the hashing aspect and how it works to back this asset is correct. Essentially, I am promising to hold an amount of AM shares that provably represents and equal or greater amount of hashing power to the amount of TAT.VM I have sold.

The only relationship my AM holdings have to this asset is as a form of assurance that the daily payout, as determined by the 24-hour hashing reward formula, will be paid with total confidence. TAT.VM is strictly meant to represent a virtual 1MH/s of hashing power, and the average mining rewards that might reap in a real-world setting, as determined by the formula.

-----
... removed

I ques this is where the hook is hidden. Bite and swallow hard.

If I recall correctly, ASICMINER has 2 sources of income:
1) mining with the ASIC's they build
2) Selling chips / rigs

Do I understand it correctly that:
3) the idea of this perpetual loan is to finance a purchase of X ASIC shares.
4) And pay pass the ASICMINER dividends to bond holders who's "coupon" is based not on what ASICMINER pays out but what 1 Mh/s can mine at current difficulty.

ASICMINER guys and their friends are the only ones who arrived on this party on time. Everyone else is getting slowly but surely screwed.
Why? Take a look a the dif. Smiley If dif. keep running up that hill at same or faster rate, earning back the money invested becomes really hard or even close to impossible. Except for those few, who have already have the ASIC's running.

Now, let's get back to this fabulous opportunity here Smiley

Lets say that 700 BTC - fees will buy about 290 ASICMINER shares.
EDIT: 290 ASICMINER will pay you about what, 72 7.54 BTC in divs per week?
100 000 Mh/s = will earn a lucky bond holders what? 28.9 BTC per week at diff. 12153411.7098? (and this will keep falling as fast as diff keeps climbing)

EDIT: 43 BTC per week for start at 0 risk?  Or did I make a mistake somewhere? (Yes I did) 

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
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June 04, 2013, 04:35:05 PM
 #113

Isn't there is risk in assuming:

1. ASICMINER share value will not fall
2. The price of said PMB will not fall
3. ASICMINER won't blow up
4. ASICMINER won't choose to pay a lower div (which they have done)

?
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June 04, 2013, 04:47:42 PM
 #114

I dont follow.. for 1 BTC ATM i can buy 140 virtual mine shares or 41 Tat. asicminer shares..  now

For VM 140 * 0.000041 * 7 = 0.040 BTC/week

For Tat 41 * 0.0002 = 0.009 BTC/week

Correct me if i am wrong in my understanding that VM is paying more dividends per week as compared to Tat
(Sorry i dont have enough BTC to buy an ASICminer share whole.. so Tat.asicminer for me.. )

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June 04, 2013, 04:56:12 PM
 #115



Lets say that 700 BTC - fees will buy about 290 ASICMINER shares.
290 ASICMINER will pay you about what, 72 BTC in divs per week?


errm didnt ASICMINER PT pay 0.02653753 per share this week so lets say 290 * 0.02653753 = 7.7 BTC per week?
or am i missing something?
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June 04, 2013, 04:57:12 PM
 #116

errm didnt ASICMINER PT pay 0.02653753 per share this week so lets say 290 * 0.02653753 = 7.7 BTC per week?
or am i missing something?
I think the post was about the 1/100 passthrough, not a full AM share

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drdanishkhan
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June 04, 2013, 04:59:37 PM
 #117

No its for a full share.. hes buying 290 shares for 700 BTC you see..

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June 04, 2013, 05:09:46 PM
 #118

Correct, I did make a mistake.

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
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June 04, 2013, 05:10:58 PM
 #119

and here is why "quantity of ASICMINER shares that represent an amount of hashing power that is equivalent to TAT.VIRTUALMINE’s total simulated hashing power"

While reading what I wrote, use the most friendliest and relaxing voice in your head.
BTW, Things in BTC bubble universes are getting ugly....
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June 04, 2013, 07:10:48 PM
 #120

Lol, thanks to all panic sellers I made some easy bitcents. Tongue
How much did you buy?  Smiley

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