65 nm Chips - [BFL ACCEPTED 100% ESCROW by John K.] - Group Buy #1 - Kernel32

[wrenchmonkey]

To those who are so concerned with heat dissipation, why not just go water-cooled. I don't really care about having a small cute little case that sits on my desk. I think we'd probably be fine using standard heatsinks on each pair of chips. This would require a slightly larger board area, but we're all going to be doing custom cases. If it turns out that we need more heat dissipation than we can get with heatsinks, throw a water block or two on there, and call it a day.

Ultimately, I see it as virtually a non-issue. The question now, of course, is whether it's worth paying the same $/hash to get these chips. I'm thinking BFL needs to come off their price by roughly $25/chip at a minimum. If they can come down to $50, they'll sell like hotcakes.

[k9quaint]

To those who are so concerned with heat dissipation, why not just go water-cooled. I don't really care about having a small cute little case that sits on my desk. I think we'd probably be fine using standard heatsinks on each pair of chips. This would require a slightly larger board area, but we're all going to be doing custom cases. If it turns out that we need more heat dissipation than we can get with heatsinks, throw a water block or two on there, and call it a day.

Ultimately, I see it as virtually a non-issue. The question now, of course, is whether it's worth paying the same $/hash to get these chips. I'm thinking BFL needs to come off their price by roughly $25/chip at a minimum. If they can come down to $50, they'll sell like hotcakes.

Zomg, I agree with Wrenchmonkey about something. One heatsink + fan per chip, or a waterblock per 2-4 chips should handle the heat problem. Unfortunately, that raises the price of a unit by $15 - $35 per chip used (including copper sinks/blocks, pump & plumbing). That sort of expense shreds BFL's bang for the buck.

[erschiessen]

Encased in a mineral oil bath?

[turtle83]

Encased in a mineral oil bath?

then u need to figure out how to keep the oil cool...

[k9quaint]

Encased in a mineral oil bath?

To move the heat away from the chip,:
One should use copper. Copper has far higher thermal conductivity than mineral oil (like 50x). So, more chips will need more copper sinks in contact with them.
To move the heat away from the copper:
If you go with water blocks (or mineral oil blocks), then you can use less copper and move the heat away from the copper faster with water (or oil). I don't think you will save money or power consumption that way since the plumbing adds cost and complexity. A bit more copper with some fans for each cluster of 2 chips should be sufficient.

[wrenchmonkey]

To those who are so concerned with heat dissipation, why not just go water-cooled. I don't really care about having a small cute little case that sits on my desk. I think we'd probably be fine using standard heatsinks on each pair of chips. This would require a slightly larger board area, but we're all going to be doing custom cases. If it turns out that we need more heat dissipation than we can get with heatsinks, throw a water block or two on there, and call it a day.

Ultimately, I see it as virtually a non-issue. The question now, of course, is whether it's worth paying the same $/hash to get these chips. I'm thinking BFL needs to come off their price by roughly $25/chip at a minimum. If they can come down to $50, they'll sell like hotcakes.

Zomg, I agree with Wrenchmonkey about something. One heatsink + fan per chip, or a waterblock per 2-4 chips should handle the heat problem. Unfortunately, that raises the price of a unit by $15 - $35 per chip used (including copper sinks/blocks, pump & plumbing). That sort of expense shreds BFL's bang for the buck.

This is true, and I considered that, but considering that each chip, running at 2.5GH-4GH, the density more than makes up for the cost difference. Each chip is the equivalent of roughly one of Burnin's boards, or a Klondike k-16 board, which each requires its own heatsink and board anyway. If we can use fewer boards, less power, and less real-estate than the equivalent in Avalon chips, there would actually probably be a small savings (board and assembly costs), even after accounting for the heat sinks. Not to mention that Burnin's and BKK's boards also require either individual heat sinks for each 4 chips, or one large heat sink. If we're buying heat sink material by the bar and cutting them down, we really are only paying for heat sink area, not the actual individual sinks, so it doesn't ultimately matter if we use one giant one, or several smaller ones.

[philips]

Small update from Josh (shoutbox):

We will be dropping the price for the chips to ~75 bucks each or so. Not guaranteed on that price, but it'll likely be close to there.

[hax0red]

Encased in a mineral oil bath?

To move the heat away from the chip,:
One should use copper. Copper has far higher thermal conductivity than mineral oil (like 50x). So, more chips will need more copper sinks in contact with them.
To move the heat away from the copper:
If you go with water blocks (or mineral oil blocks), then you can use less copper and move the heat away from the copper faster with water (or oil). I don't think you will save money or power consumption that way since the plumbing adds cost and complexity. A bit more copper with some fans for each cluster of 2 chips should be sufficient.

I would simply buy a Corsair H60 or H110 and use thermal adhesive to mount the block once I was satisfied it could do the job. I mounted a H55 to my 7870 using zip ties and it never went above 57C at 1225mhz  core (tahiti chipped version) so I already have experience with conditions that aren't exactly ideal and it worked out just like my custom water loops have and honestly took far less time but once the adhesive is used and sets there is no going back.

[k9quaint]

Encased in a mineral oil bath?

To move the heat away from the chip,:
One should use copper. Copper has far higher thermal conductivity than mineral oil (like 50x). So, more chips will need more copper sinks in contact with them.
To move the heat away from the copper:
If you go with water blocks (or mineral oil blocks), then you can use less copper and move the heat away from the copper faster with water (or oil). I don't think you will save money or power consumption that way since the plumbing adds cost and complexity. A bit more copper with some fans for each cluster of 2 chips should be sufficient.

I would simply buy a Corsair H60 or H110 and use thermal adhesive to mount the block once I was satisfied it could do the job. I mounted a H55 to my 7870 using zip ties and it never went above 57C at 1225mhz  core (tahiti chipped version) so I already have experience with conditions that aren't exactly ideal and it worked out just like my custom water loops have and honestly took far less time but once the adhesive is used and sets there is no going back.

An H110 would almost certainly do the job, but that is an extra $130 per chip cluster. That cooling expense drops BFL's price/performance below Avalon's.
Plus, scaling chip clusters would be hard with all the extra plumbing required.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Small update from Josh (shoutbox):

We will be dropping the price for the chips to ~75 bucks each or so. Not guaranteed on that price, but it'll likely be close to there.

Sales are so brisk, outta the kindness of their hearts they're offering a discount. Now why didn't they do that for their actual miners?

[philips]

FFS man,
when they raise the price = they're evil,
when they lower the price = they're evil.

Whatever they do, is not good enough for some.

[Bicknellski]

FFS man,
when they raise the price = they're evil,
when they lower the price = they're evil.

Whatever they do, is not good enough for some.

When they fail to ship and lie about many aspects with regards to their build and timelines they are not evil, they just lack morality and ethical boundaries the most of us in the community find reprehensible. No one in their right mind is going to waste their time producing a design that won't have chips available. Given the fact that Avalon is going to 55nm undercuts everything BFL is doing and pretty much closes the door on them especially if Avalon gets those chips to market in 4 months time. If some of the work already done on the Klondike can be morphed into the Bonanza... well I would say people doing a new BFL PCB design are going to have a dead end road as no one is going to buy it.

[philips]

FFS man,
when they raise the price = they're evil,
when they lower the price = they're evil.

Whatever they do, is not good enough for some.

When they fail to ship and lie about many aspects with regards to their build and timelines they are not evil, they just lack morality and ethical boundaries the most of us in the community find reprehensible.

OK, I will fix it:

when they raise the price = they lack morality and ethical boundaries the most of us in the community find reprehensible,
when they lower the price = they lack morality and ethical boundaries the most of us in the community find reprehensible.

Whatever they do, is not good enough for some.

There.

[Bicknellski]

They haven't done anything...

Where are the units?

Where are the chips?

Where are the documents for someone to actually design a PCB?

If you actually think these people at BFL can be trusted to put all the necessary information out and have working "grade A" chips the you are delusional. Seriously what does price have to do with anything given their track record. No one is going to design anything for these chips it would be a waste of time. They can't even design a board and they have had 11 months! Also who wants to buy from BFL at all? They pretty much slit their own throats and as a community no one especially PCB designers should come to their aid. Let em rot.

[philips]

They haven't done anything...

Where are the units?

Where are the chips?

Where are the documents for someone to actually design a PCB?

If you actually think these people at BFL can be trusted to put all the necessary information out and have working "grade A" chips the you are delusional. Seriously what does price have to do with anything given their track record. No one is going to design anything for these chips it would be a waste of time. They can't even design a board and they have had 11 months! Also who wants to buy from BFL at all? They pretty much slit their own throats and as a community no one especially PCB designers should come to their aid. Let em rot.

If trusting BFL is delusional, then I am delusional and that's my problem, please don't try to cure me. So far they delivered 6 units to me, so I am OK with being delusional.

Who wants to buy from BFL? I am pretty sure they will and have lots of customers (but then again, I am delusional).

Let them rot?
  
Man, you have issues or really love theatricals.

[Bicknellski]

They haven't done anything...

Where are the units?

Where are the chips?

Where are the documents for someone to actually design a PCB?

If you actually think these people at BFL can be trusted to put all the necessary information out and have working "grade A" chips the you are delusional. Seriously what does price have to do with anything given their track record. No one is going to design anything for these chips it would be a waste of time. They can't even design a board and they have had 11 months! Also who wants to buy from BFL at all? They pretty much slit their own throats and as a community no one especially PCB designers should come to their aid. Let em rot.

If trusting BFL is delusional, then I am delusional and that's my problem, please don't try to cure me. So far they delivered 6 units to me, so I am OK with being delusional.

Who wants to buy from BFL? I am pretty sure they will and have lots of customers (but then again, I am delusional).

Let them rot?
  
Man, you have issues or really love theatricals.

No theatrics...

Where are the fucking the miners?
Where are the fucking chips?
Where are the fucking design specs to make a PCB work with the chips?
Which kind of fucking chips will they ship grade D?


Dude stop being a poster boy for a lost cause. BFL is a turd that won't even float.

[philips]

Where are the fucking the miners?
Where are the fucking chips?
Where are the fucking design specs to make a PCB work with the chips?
Which kind of fucking chips will they ship grade D?

Gee, wipe that foam man...just a little more...there.
I can understand complaining, but you just went berserk there, red eyes and all.
I thought you were a teacher or something  

[wrenchmonkey]

BFL has shipped 3 months worth of Jalapeno orders in about a week's time. This is why Bicknellski and his fellow BFL trolls are getting desperate, leading him to search for all terms BFL, and post nonsense in every thread he can find, including posts that have been dead for months. Also why he's clearly over his limit on the 'rageahol'... 

[Inaba]

I think he passed his limit about a week ago.  He's on an epic bender at this point.

[Bicknellski]

Proof? Evidence?

Those be nice to have.