Why QQ?

[helmax]

why you dont ask your money back

[dogie]

why you dont ask your money back

I don't have any money to ask for, but I could try

To be honest you've already shown how one man could potentially take them down:

    BFL would undoubtedly get bukaki'ed by government agencies if an investigation was to occur. Assets frozen etc
    BFL would get spit roasted if the FCC found they were selling these uncertified products, even if it is just $7000 worth in 9 months LOL


Why dont you just report them to said agencies, watch the run on the bank as it comes out that everyone's money thats tied up has been frozen and under investigation, there would be charge backs on cards done on mass.

Because I'm not a US citizen. I did actually look at the FCC reporting a few months ago just for luls and I think you have to call a US number?

No you don't, although if you wanted to exert more pressure a phone call and hand written letter sent by registered post would prob raise more eyebrows.

Almost certainly it requires efforts of those on this forum...

http://www.fcc.gov/complaints

Also this would be helpful for you to read:

http://www.bureauveritas.com/wps/wcm/connect/bv_com/Group/Home/About-Us/Our-Business/Our-Business-Consumer-Products/Resources/Frequently+Asked+Questions/FCC

I think you would need to knock heads and create some congruency as to where you agree the fault lies and what you are complaining about exactly...

Ah that was it. Yeah when you follow it through it just gets more and more bullshit. Even the first category, what on earth do you select.

[Bitcoinorama]

why you dont ask your money back

I don't have any money to ask for, but I could try

To be honest you've already shown how one man could potentially take them down:

    BFL would undoubtedly get bukaki'ed by government agencies if an investigation was to occur. Assets frozen etc
    BFL would get spit roasted if the FCC found they were selling these uncertified products, even if it is just $7000 worth in 9 months LOL


Why dont you just report them to said agencies, watch the run on the bank as it comes out that everyone's money thats tied up has been frozen and under investigation, there would be charge backs on cards done on mass.

Because I'm not a US citizen. I did actually look at the FCC reporting a few months ago just for luls and I think you have to call a US number?

No you don't, although if you wanted to exert more pressure a phone call and hand written letter sent by registered post would prob raise more eyebrows.

Almost certainly it requires efforts of those on this forum...

http://www.fcc.gov/complaints

Also this would be helpful for you to read:

http://www.bureauveritas.com/wps/wcm/connect/bv_com/Group/Home/About-Us/Our-Business/Our-Business-Consumer-Products/Resources/Frequently+Asked+Questions/FCC

I think you would need to knock heads and create some congruency as to where you agree the fault lies and what you are complaining about exactly...

Ah that was it. Yeah when you follow it through it just gets more and more bullshit. Even the first category, what on earth do you select.

Don't know mate, that's for you to mutually agree on with those considering.

Perhaps of you knock heads with those vocally disenchanted Butterfly Labs opponents then you could determine a more pragmatic solution and post a walk through for all concerned?

That would be more eventful than a forum thread expressing disdain and not really going anywhere.

Otherwise all these negative Butterfly Labs threads are nothing but hot air!!!

I thought you were a millionaire at 13, surely you must be able to apply some logic to this...

Walk the talk.

[PulsedMedia]

Clearly, Dogie is biased against BFL.
BFL has started delivering which is very evident, all the major costs have now been covered.
The biggest costs has always been with the ASICs the initial design and prefab (masking and what not), once these are done the individual chip cost is extremely low.
Somehow i bet their per chip cost is in the 5$ ballpark now.
Add rest of the HW -> casing, pcb, caps, regs, resistors etc etc. bought in bulk you have something like this cost breakdown:
case 5$
fan 1$
pcb 2$
connectors 5$
on board components: 10$
Total: 23$
Assembly + testing: 20$ per unit.
43$ + chips = 53$ per jalapeno unit. So realisticially 50 to 100$ to mfg single unit.

Since this is an exponential growth business limited by bitcoin valuation, which exponentially raises as mining costs raise, and they are now delivering they are starting to rake in more and more orders each and every day.

Why exponential growth?
Let's assume 5G unit has a steady ROI of 6months after costs (right now more like 1week, in couple of months 3months, in a year probably 11months), and bitcoin price does not fluctuate.
Customer buys 1 unit, 6months later he buys another with the mining revenue, 6months after he buys 2 units, 6months after 4 units and so forth.
Since ROI is more like 1 week now, it goes more like this:
1 week purchase 2nd unit
2nd week purchase 2 more units
4th week purchase 3 more units (ROI is getting longer), now 7 units
6th week purchase 5 more units, total 12
8th week purchase 9 more units, total 21
10th +15 = 36
12th +20 = 56
14th +20 = 86
and so forth.

Now as we start reaching point where ROI takes 11 months, miners suddenly stop purchasing and hoarding, which leads to prices raising as more miners are hoarding, if some major event happens then with several month lead time BTC price will hike and all the miners suddenly sell their BTC and purchase a lot of new equipment, just like what happened lately.

Therefore, as long as BFL is shipping they are getting ever increasing revenue.
The true winner again is the one selling shovels, not digging the gold.


All of this lets me conclude that Dogie has a vested interest in Avalon, Bitfury, KNC or ASICMINER. Probably ASICMINER, and he is trying to guard his investment by spreading FUD and trying to get people to run at BFL at the very last possible moment.
You forget just one thing, BFL likely has in their war chest few thousand BTCs alone, which easily pays the current salaries for some months and the components for next several wafers completion and as per T&C refunds are not guaranteed, even if suddenly 15% asked refund today, they'd probably honor 5% and then stop and keep on shipping.

Nice try troll, but no luck. I think i'll go buy another few 50G units now, ty very much.

[dogie]

why you dont ask your money back

I don't have any money to ask for, but I could try

To be honest you've already shown how one man could potentially take them down:

    BFL would undoubtedly get bukaki'ed by government agencies if an investigation was to occur. Assets frozen etc
    BFL would get spit roasted if the FCC found they were selling these uncertified products, even if it is just $7000 worth in 9 months LOL


Why dont you just report them to said agencies, watch the run on the bank as it comes out that everyone's money thats tied up has been frozen and under investigation, there would be charge backs on cards done on mass.

Because I'm not a US citizen. I did actually look at the FCC reporting a few months ago just for luls and I think you have to call a US number?

No you don't, although if you wanted to exert more pressure a phone call and hand written letter sent by registered post would prob raise more eyebrows.

Almost certainly it requires efforts of those on this forum...

http://www.fcc.gov/complaints

Also this would be helpful for you to read:

http://www.bureauveritas.com/wps/wcm/connect/bv_com/Group/Home/About-Us/Our-Business/Our-Business-Consumer-Products/Resources/Frequently+Asked+Questions/FCC

I think you would need to knock heads and create some congruency as to where you agree the fault lies and what you are complaining about exactly...

Ah that was it. Yeah when you follow it through it just gets more and more bullshit. Even the first category, what on earth do you select.

Don't know mate, that's for you to mutually agree on with those considering.

Perhaps of you knock heads with those vocally disenchanted Butterfly Labs opponents then you could determine a more pragmatic solution and post a walk through for all concerned?

That would be more eventful than a forum thread expressing disdain and not really going anywhere.

Otherwise all these negative Butterfly Labs threads are nothing but hot air!!!

I thought you were a millionaire at 13, surely you must be able to apply some logic to this...

Walk the talk.

Misinterpretation OP.

[dogie]

Clearly, Dogie is biased against BFL.
BFL has started delivering which is very evident, all the major costs have now been covered.
The biggest costs has always been with the ASICs the initial design and prefab (masking and what not), once these are done the individual chip cost is extremely low.
Somehow i bet their per chip cost is in the 5$ ballpark now.
Add rest of the HW -> casing, pcb, caps, regs, resistors etc etc. bought in bulk you have something like this cost breakdown:
case 5$
fan 1$
pcb 2$
connectors 5$
on board components: 10$
Total: 23$
Assembly + testing: 20$ per unit.
43$ + chips = 53$ per jalapeno unit. So realisticially 50 to 100$ to mfg single unit.

Since this is an exponential growth business limited by bitcoin valuation, which exponentially raises as mining costs raise, and they are now delivering they are starting to rake in more and more orders each and every day.

Why exponential growth?
Let's assume 5G unit has a steady ROI of 6months after costs (right now more like 1week, in couple of months 3months, in a year probably 11months), and bitcoin price does not fluctuate.
Customer buys 1 unit, 6months later he buys another with the mining revenue, 6months after he buys 2 units, 6months after 4 units and so forth.
Since ROI is more like 1 week now, it goes more like this:
1 week purchase 2nd unit
2nd week purchase 2 more units
4th week purchase 3 more units (ROI is getting longer), now 7 units
6th week purchase 5 more units, total 12
8th week purchase 9 more units, total 21
10th +15 = 36
12th +20 = 56
14th +20 = 86
and so forth.

Now as we start reaching point where ROI takes 11 months, miners suddenly stop purchasing and hoarding, which leads to prices raising as more miners are hoarding, if some major event happens then with several month lead time BTC price will hike and all the miners suddenly sell their BTC and purchase a lot of new equipment, just like what happened lately.

Therefore, as long as BFL is shipping they are getting ever increasing revenue.
The true winner again is the one selling shovels, not digging the gold.


All of this lets me conclude that Dogie has a vested interest in Avalon, Bitfury, KNC or ASICMINER. Probably ASICMINER, and he is trying to guard his investment by spreading FUD and trying to get people to run at BFL at the very last possible moment.
You forget just one thing, BFL likely has in their war chest few thousand BTCs alone, which easily pays the current salaries for some months and the components for next several wafers completion and as per T&C refunds are not guaranteed, even if suddenly 15% asked refund today, they'd probably honor 5% and then stop and keep on shipping.

Nice try troll, but no luck. I think i'll go buy another few 50G units now, ty very much.

So much shit in here its not even possible to go through it all. I couldn't give a shit if BFL shipped 3000000000000 chips tomorrow or Avalon decided to mine themselves. Its a shit company who is laughing so hard at anyone with a preorder.

If you ordered from Newegg and they offered you a money printing machine, and said "next week", laughed at you when you questioned them, then didn't do anything for 9 months but continue to make false promises. Why do you put up with it? Because you are blinded by greed.

*what if they ship my 1.5TH minirig tomorrow, what if what if what if*

BFL will have a documentary about then im a few years, and you'll all be referred to as victims xD

[k9quaint]

Clearly, Dogie is biased against BFL.
BFL has started delivering which is very evident, all the major costs have now been covered.
The biggest costs has always been with the ASICs the initial design and prefab (masking and what not), once these are done the individual chip cost is extremely low.
Somehow i bet their per chip cost is in the 5$ ballpark now.

That would be Avalon's chip cost because:
it is a much simpler chip
it using a much larger fab process
they did their own mask and design
they order 100,000+ of chips

BFL's chip cost is much more because:
they use a small process (45nm according to some sources)
they have a larger and more complex chip
they are ordering in hundreds of units which means a multi-project wafer
multi-project wafers mean $30-$60 per chip depending on die size

Add rest of the HW -> casing, pcb, caps, regs, resistors etc etc. bought in bulk you have something like this cost breakdown:
case 5$
fan 1$
pcb 2$
connectors 5$
on board components: 10$
Total: 23$

fan + heatsink alone will run them $10, $15 if it is copper, not $1
you forgot the power brick cord which is at least $5 and packaging which is another $5
so your COGs is $50, not $23

Assembly + testing: 20$ per unit.
43$ + chips = 53$ per jalapeno unit. So realisticially 50 to 100$ to mfg single unit.

Using the actual values for COGs we get:
$50 for non-BFL ASIC chip components
$60-$120 for ASIC chips in a Jalapeno (2 chips)
Assembly + testing $20 (total WAG since it depends on salaries, rent, and time spent per unit)
So realistically, total COGs is $130 to $190 per unit which means they are probably hemorrhaging money on early pre-orders.
This is why BFL is so touchy about bad press and hostile forum posts. They need more pre-orders because they have burned through 11 months of salaries and rent (at $400K a month for 20 people, that adds up). That is why they jacked the price up on their Jalapeno's by $100 as soon as they had a working prototype, to re-establish their margins.

[glendall]

I think the idea behind this is correct, and something like this is a good idea.  That being said, 2 points:

1) I think this decision should be up to the BFL pre-order folks  (which doesn't include me).

2) If what OP said goes down and BFL gets shutdown or whatever, I think, IMHO that it would be a far from guaranteed thing that folks would get their pre-order money back. If anything shutting down the company like this would basically make your preorder money a lost cause. It's one thing to get a financial judicial judgement against a company, but it's quite another thing to get money out of a more-than-bankrupt company. (As far as I know -- not a legal expert, but that's my impression...)

[chalidore]

I find it disgustingly hypocritical that in a community of libertarian anarcho-capitalists some of you want to run to government agencies and ask them to attack a company that will make mining more competitive.
If you are encouraging government involvement, and you don't even have an order in with BFL, you are scum, and a disgrace to this community.

[k9quaint]

I find it disgustingly hypocritical that in a community of libertarian anarcho-capitalists some of you want to run to government agencies and ask them to attack a company that will make mining more competitive.
If you are encouraging government involvement, and you don't even have an order in with BFL, you are scum, and a disgrace to this community.

I am not a libertarian anarcho-capitalist. I am math geek, computer science geek, and security nerd. I know quite a few Bitcoiners like me.
I don't believe your characterization of the Bitcoin community to be correct.

But your broad point of libertarians running to the government as soon as shit lands on their doorstep is correct.

[PeZ]

People who don't have preorders with BFL should not be QQ on these forums.

There are a great number of injustices in the world. Put your efforts into something worthwhile.

If you want something local, how about a call to arms against Herbalife - the biggest pyramid conjob there ever was. Too afraid of Carl Icahn?

Or if you want to stick with cryptocurrencies, take a look at Ripple's pyramid scheme.

[spiral_mind]

Dogie probably whined and cried for months about BFL being a scam.

Now that they are shipping and he decided not to order he is venting his anger at BFL itself instead of blaming himself (because that hurts too much).

Don't blame the company, blame your own stupidity Dogie.

[minternj]

People who don't have preorders with BFL should not be QQ on these forums.

Exactly what i've been saying on other bfl related threads. If you don't have business with them STFU. If you do have an order, feel free to whine. Everything has already been said in regards to sony, delays, waht josh ate for breakfast, etc. Stop rehashing it on every thread, everyone knows and has made thier decision to stay or get refunds.

[Bicknellski]

I find it disgustingly hypocritical that in a community of libertarian anarcho-capitalists some of you want to run to government agencies and ask them to attack a company that will make mining more competitive.
If you are encouraging government involvement, and you don't even have an order in with BFL, you are scum, and a disgrace to this community.

As an anarchist we should simply stop buying their products considering they do not value the work force or the consumers they are producing for. You do know what anarchists want right or LIBERTARIANS are right? I think you might want to rethink what you define them as. I for one as a Libertarian do not want a company to disregard it's ethical obligations as that would infringe on the rights of the people who put faith in them.

Seriously what reeks to high heaven here are not those asking the government to step in but those would invoke "libertarianism" as some how a reason for a corporate entity to lie to people. Ignorant. Maybe you need to read up on Anarchism and Libertarian Socialism.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDHBvQRyOr0 Noam Chomsky: On Anarchism Libertarian Socialism. What a real Anarchist / Libertarian looks like. DEMOCRACY THROUGH OUT ALL SOCIETY.

[chalidore]

I find it disgustingly hypocritical that in a community of libertarian anarcho-capitalists some of you want to run to government agencies and ask them to attack a company that will make mining more competitive.
If you are encouraging government involvement, and you don't even have an order in with BFL, you are scum, and a disgrace to this community.

As an anarchist we should simply stop buying their products considering they do not value the work force or the consumers they are producing for. You do know what anarchists want right or LIBERTARIANS are right? I think you might want to rethink what you define them as. I for one as a Libertarian do not want a company to disregard it's ethical obligations as that would infringe on the rights of the people who put faith in them.

Seriously what reeks to high heaven here are not those asking the government to step in but those would invoke "libertarianism" as some how a reason for a corporate entity to lie to people. Ignorant. Maybe you need to read up on Anarchism and Libertarian Socialism.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDHBvQRyOr0 Noam Chomsky: On Anarchism Libertarian Socialism. What a real Anarchist / Libertarian looks like. DEMOCRACY THROUGH OUT ALL SOCIETY.

Don't bring Chomsky into this. That guy is my hero.
Chomsky is going after the petro-chemical/millitary industrial complex, OK?
He has more important shit to deal with than BFL!
I am waiting on BFL to ship, but I'm not going to write a letter to Chomsky, because he is probably busy resolving the Israeli/Palestinian conflict er sum such shit.
If you don't see the hypocrisy of a bitcoin miner going to a federal regulating agency to go after BFL, especially if they don't even have an order with BFL, you are blinded by your own agenda.

[Inaba]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

[dogie]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

If you weren't scared, you wouldn't be posting here. You've done more than I ever could have to verify just how precarious your position is.

Oh and, if you have all those 100s of THs, why aren't you sending out more than 100GH of orders? Ah yes.... next week right?

[k9quaint]

People who don't have preorders with BFL should not be QQ on these forums.

Exactly what i've been saying on other bfl related threads. If you don't have business with them STFU. If you do have an order, feel free to whine. Everything has already been said in regards to sony, delays, waht josh ate for breakfast, etc. Stop rehashing it on every thread, everyone knows and has made thier decision to stay or get refunds.

If the BFL sockpuppets would stop posting misinformation, I think most people would stop responding. However, I can understand you begging people to stop giving BFL bad press. 2 days ago, there was not a single thread on the front page of Custom Hardware about BFL. As it should be IMHO. But customers keep complaining about not having the product they ordered 11 months ago...

At this point BFL has such a tiny piece of the overall hashing rate and is showing few signs of being able to catch up to ASICMiner & Avalon. BFL's customers have paid such enormous opportunity costs already, I just don't see BFL being relevant to Bitcoin hashing for much longer. If KNCMiner delivers, that would be the nail in the coffin.

P.S. Miners who are looking out for their wallet should encourage BFL investors to not refund. Refunded capital would go to Avalon or ASICMiner and result in more actual hashing power deployed sooner than BFL can deliver.

[Inaba]

So let me get this straight... Dogie is advocating a mass refund on BFL, who has a bunch of mining hardware.  Lets say Dogies exceptionally brilliant plan came to pass (which is, in and of itself completely ridiculous, but we'll table that for now).  Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do?  Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service?

Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out.

For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business.  Would we have to pare down on employees?  Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway.

If you weren't scared, you wouldn't be posting here. You've done more than I ever could have to verify just how precarious your position is.

He's pointing out the obviously flawed logic in your idea.

The "plan" is so illogical that even if was realistically possible, it would likely end up helping BFL by giving a better profit margin on units already produced being sold at $274 going forward instead of $150 (similarly increased profit margins on the 25/50 GH/s), where most of the proposed "refund exodus" was supposed to take place.

Oh, and as a bonus it would help clear out the pre-order queue that is likely holding back a lot of potential prospective buyers from purchasing BFL right now. 

So the final result would be:

• BFL earns higher profits
• Everyone who didn't refund is bumped up in the queue
• Refunders get their original value back in $

Oh and, if you have all those 100s of THs, why aren't you sending out more than 100GH of orders? Ah yes.... next week right?

...again, the logical conclusion of time wasted going through the proposed Call to arms hypothetically means that BFL has hardware that nobody buys.  Therefore they can mine with it.

It's so refreshing to see someone with a brain posting.  Bonus points for your taste in TV.

[minternj]

However, I can understand you begging people to stop giving BFL bad press. 2 days ago, there was not a single thread on the front page of Custom Hardware about BFL. As it should be IMHO.

i very much doubt that there was no threads talking about BF even for half a second. Even the stupid KNC thread is polluted with BFL bullshit. I go in that thread to read stuff about knc, but nooo we can't behave like normal people on this forum.