Why QQ?

[wrenchmonkey]

First off, once again, who is this mysterious "they"? You're quoting a Yahoo news article, not a person, as far as I can tell. Not that it's relevant to the point.

It doesn't matter WHAT claim you hypothetically made in my analogy, you say the analogy doesn't hold up, simply because you didn't claim to have designed the engine? OK. fine.

But why does the analogy hold up until the point of the engine? In that analogy, you didn't design ANY of it, yet you claimed to be an automotive design leader. You're willing to claim credit for being a leader in automotive design, just not in Turbine Engine design, when you haven't done ANYTHING in either field? 

Sounds to me like you're applying some arbitrary limitations on what you're willing to say somebody's allowed to claim credit on, based on your pre-defined position in the argument, rather than on simple logic. If your argument were consistent, you'd have to deny credit for being an industry leader in automotive design, if having received outside help AT ALL (let alone for EVERYTHING, as in this example).

The reality is that neither you nor I actually know the level of BFL's direct involvement in the design. Maybe they designed most of it and had outside help in finalizing it. Maybe they designed none of it at all. We don't know, and frankly, it's a moot point, because EVERY INDUSTRY subcontracts complex specialized jobs out. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. This includes the market leaders.

This includes Apple, who uses Intel's processors, and Nvidia's graphics cards, and Sharps' LCD screens, Foxconn's motherboards and assembly services...

Even IF you were directly quoting a BFL rep making a claim to be an industry leader in ASIC design, that would STILL be a factual statement, as they WERE the leaders who drove the rest of the industry to move toward ASIC design, and implementation. They single-handedly shifted the entire mining equipment industry from GPU/FPGA to ASIC, after already having been industry leaders in the FPGA mining aspect as well.

You're falling WELL short of the mark in falsifying these (unattributed, mind you) claims/statements, even on the grounds of playing petty 'semantics'.

Whether you like BFL or not, there's no denying that they are and were an industry leader in the ASIC mining arena.

But keep fuckin' that chicken, if that's what gets you off...  

[k9quaint]

But keep fuckin' that chicken, if that's what gets you off...  

Analogy fail again. BFL is not a chicken. Chickens are delicious.

[wrenchmonkey]

More deflection [surprising no one].

[k9quaint]

Facts not addressed by Wrenchmonkey because they clearly show BFL to be lying about their capabilities.

Why hasn't Inaba come to save you by sprinkling LiarDouche Powder (TM) on the thread to cover your escape?

BFL the self-proclaimed leaders in semiconductor design who have never designed a semiconductor ought to stick up for their shills better than this.
Perhaps you shills should unionize and ask for better treatment.

[wrenchmonkey]

EDIT: But what's the origin of the cited article? Was the article written by BFL? It appears to be 3rd party statements you're nitpicking, which even further weakens your point.

They're the words of BFL.  See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.0

I chose not to pick on the fact that they're a "market" leader, because it's too vague.  One could argue that the market they're referring to is the bitcoin mining market, in which case I'd concede that it was a quasi-truth at the time.  On the other hand, if the argument made is that they're a leader in SHA-256 hardware design, I'm sure if one spent the time it could easily be dismissed as a fallacy.  To better put it into perspective, compare ASICMiner with BFL.  It's my understanding that friedcat et al. designed their own chip, had it manufactured and have manufactured enough hardware to put double digit terrahash numbers onto the network.  I don't think it's necessary to pick apart Inaba's statements claiming that BFL has production facilities that dwarf any competitor when they have shipped near nothing in comparison to AM.

*Sigh*... That's like digging up an old advertisement for the DVD format, and reading that it "offers the highest resolution and clearest picture quality available in home entertainment".

Lies, bullshit! Everybody knows that Bluray and HDDVD offer a better picture quality than DVD!

Or watching a DVRed broadcast of a motorcycle race that you already know the outcome of "Valentino Rossi is in the lead!"

"God, what a fucking liar! Rossi fell behind, and Nicky Hayden won! This just goes to show you that the mainstream media can't be trusted!"

  Really, man, you're just too much!

You are comparing claims made a year ago, to the current market today. You don't compare past statements about the state of the industry, to the state of the CURRENT industry. Compare the claims to the state of the industry at the time the claim was made, and you'll see that it's pretty irrefutable. They were the clear leader. ASICMiner didn't sell any equipment until VERY recently.

[wrenchmonkey]

More deflection [surprising no one].

Keep fuckin' that chicken...

[k9quaint]

EDIT: But what's the origin of the cited article? Was the article written by BFL? It appears to be 3rd party statements you're nitpicking, which even further weakens your point.

They're the words of BFL.  See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.0

I chose not to pick on the fact that they're a "market" leader, because it's too vague.  One could argue that the market they're referring to is the bitcoin mining market, in which case I'd concede that it was a quasi-truth at the time.  On the other hand, if the argument made is that they're a leader in SHA-256 hardware design, I'm sure if one spent the time it could easily be dismissed as a fallacy.  To better put it into perspective, compare ASICMiner with BFL.  It's my understanding that friedcat et al. designed their own chip, had it manufactured and have manufactured enough hardware to put double digit terrahash numbers onto the network.  I don't think it's necessary to pick apart Inaba's statements claiming that BFL has production facilities that dwarf any competitor when they have shipped near nothing in comparison to AM.

*Sigh*... That's like digging up an old advertisement for the DVD format, and reading that it "offers the highest resolution and clearest picture quality available in home entertainment".

Lies, bullshit! Everybody knows that Bluray and HDDVD offer a better picture quality than DVD!

Or watching a DVRed broadcast of a motorcycle race that you already know the outcome of "Valentino Rossi is in the lead!"

"God, what a fucking liar! Rossi fell behind, and Nicky Hayden won! This just goes to show you that the mainstream media can't be trusted!"

  Really, man, you're just too much!

You are comparing claims made a year ago, to the current market today. You don't compare past statements about the state of the industry, to the state of the CURRENT industry. Compare the claims to the state of the industry at the time the claim was made, and you'll see that it's pretty irrefutable. They were the clear leader. ASICMiner didn't sell any equipment until VERY recently.

Actually, its like digging up old statements of BFL and showing how (by comparing them with later admissions from BFL) that the earlier statements could not possibly have been true.
No DVDs or Blue Ray discs, or Apple phones, or flying cars made by Boeing were involved.

So the original doesn't get lost in Wrenchmonkey spunk:

Oh, so then they were lying when they posted "Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design [...]" and "The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design."?

Sounds to me like they are ASIC designers.  Or maybe they're a bunch of fucking liars?

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html

[wrenchmonkey]

Actually, its like digging up old statements of BFL and showing how (by comparing them with later admissions from BFL) that the earlier statements could not possibly have been true.

So, enlighten us then. Who WAS leading the ASIC race at the time of that news article?

[dropt]

First off, once again, who is this mysterious "they"? You're quoting a Yahoo news article, not a person, as far as I can tell. Not that it's relevant to the point.

Click this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg966882#msg966882  Read the post. The "They" you're referring to is the "We" in the post I'm linking you to for the second time.

Please refresh my memory as to what point it is you're referring to?  

Your claim:

You people just keep piling on more and more totally irrelevant nonsense. Anybody who has ever run a company that does any serious manufacturing knows that sub-contracting is part of the biz. BFL started out doing FPGA miners. They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

Which, if we want to get into "facts", your assessment does not align with BFL's public statement.

As for the rest of your post.  Who are you replying to? k9? a1pha? me?

Focus man!

[dropt]

Actually, its like digging up old statements of BFL and showing how (by comparing them with later admissions from BFL) that the earlier statements could not possibly have been true.

So, enlighten us then. Who WAS leading the ASIC race at the time of that news article?

That depends.  How would you like quantify what constitutes "leading" the ASIC race?

[k9quaint]

Actually, its like digging up old statements of BFL and showing how (by comparing them with later admissions from BFL) that the earlier statements could not possibly have been true.

So, enlighten us then. Who WAS leading the ASIC race at the time of that news article?

You got it wrong again. Let me quote you the original statements.

BFL started out doing FPGA miners. They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

That was your own statement that BFL does not have ASIC engineers.

Here is BFL's statement that they do:
http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html
Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design
The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design.

Not ASIC race. Microprocessor design. How do you lead the markets in microprocessor design and offer consulting services in semiconductor design without having any ASIC engineers? Which one of you is lying?

[Flying Hellfish]

Dude I'm serious, give me a something to work with, I'd love to add that to my list of reasons BFL is shady, but seriously, saying another user searched for it isn't good enough. I don't own a jalapeno and have no idea to look up. Can you also explain why it needs fcc licensing? I'm not trying to counter-troll, I honestly want to know.

This thread was interesting.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=189464.0

[wrenchmonkey]

First off, once again, who is this mysterious "they"? You're quoting a Yahoo news article, not a person, as far as I can tell. Not that it's relevant to the point.

Click this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg966882#msg966882  Read the post. The "They" you're referring to is the "We" in the post I'm linking you to for the second time.

Please refresh my memory as to what point it is you're referring to?  

Your claim:

You people just keep piling on more and more totally irrelevant nonsense. Anybody who has ever run a company that does any serious manufacturing knows that sub-contracting is part of the biz. BFL started out doing FPGA miners. They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

Which, if we want to get into "facts", your assessment does not align with BFL's public statement.

As for the rest of your post.  Who are you replying to? k9? a1pha? me?

Focus man!

Once again, you're continuing to try to play the semantics game. ASIC design is not the same thing as FPGA design. There are different specialized skills involved with developing various components. If you as a company, don't have any individuals on your staff with this specialized skill, that doesn't mean that you're forever barred from getting into the ASIC game.

You have two options. The first one would be to hire a specialized ASIC engineer onto your staff. Now, this doesn't seem like a particularly great option, if you only need to design on ASIC. Most specialized folks are gonna be wary about being hired on to do ONE chip design. Most likely, they'll want to free-lance it, because they know that once you're done with them, they're gonna have to search for another job. So specialized guys like this don't like to go to work for a couple of months at a time for every company they design a chip for. It's not prudent for ANYBODY.

So, in order to make everybody's lives simpler, and make it so that people with specialized skills have to pick up and move every few weeks, what usually happens is that a company will crop up that says "Hey, specialized engineers, we will hire you, give you long-term employment, and benefits, or whatever. You won't have to move around. You won't have to shop for work. We'll get the clients, bring them in, you do the design, and then we'll move onto the next project.

So, say hypothetically, a company like BFL doesn't have the specialized skills to design this very specific type of chip that they need. It's not in their interest to hire a full-time chip designer, just to satisfy some nit-picky little child on an internet forum. It's in their interest to get a chip designed, and integrate it into their overall hardware design. It just so happens that there are companies who already employ specialized engineers to do this exact type of work.

What should they do? How about go hire the company that already employs those specialized engineers?

BFL still gets to be the first company to design a Bitcoin mining-specific ASIC, by farming out the work to a 3rd party, and everybody wins. Being that BFL is the first company to come up with an ASIC chip for bitcoin mining, this qualifies them as an industry leader, puts them in the lead in the race for hashing power, and establishes them as the benchmark for ASIC mining going forward.

It does not guarantee that they'll continue to be the leader. It doesn't gurantee that everybody will love them. It doesn't make them the best ASIC design company. But it DOES make them a leader in ASIC design, since they're the first company on the planet to own a Bitcoin mining ASIC. THE FIRST OF THEIR KIND. That sets them apart as leaders, son. Like it or don't.

The direct full-time employees of the company don't have to have done all (or, for that matter ANY) of the work in order for this company to still be considered the leader. It's their product. They're the first to have it. They're the leader. Period. The ins and outs of who did the physical labor is completely immaterial to the discussion, and if you're latching onto that to try and play semantics, you really are running out of ideas.

Subcontracting out all or some engineering aspects of a particular product is done ALLLLLL THEEEEE FUCKIN' TIME. And it's done by 'industry leaders' all the fuckin' time. If you aren't able to wrap your head around this concept, you've got more pressing issues than your obsessive all-consuming hatred for BFL. You should probably try getting some sun.

[wrenchmonkey]

Actually, its like digging up old statements of BFL and showing how (by comparing them with later admissions from BFL) that the earlier statements could not possibly have been true.

So, enlighten us then. Who WAS leading the ASIC race at the time of that news article?

You got it wrong again. Let me quote you the original statements.

BFL started out doing FPGA miners. They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

That was your own statement that BFL does not have ASIC engineers.

Here is BFL's statement that they do:
http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html
Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design
The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design.

Not ASIC race. Microprocessor design. How do you lead the markets in microprocessor design and offer consulting services in semiconductor design without having any ASIC engineers? Which one of you is lying?

As I said before, it doesn't matter whether the company directly hires an employee to do the work, or contracts through a 3rd party to complete the work on their behalf. If a building contractor doesn't drive one single nail, and instead subcontracts all of the jobs (by the way, this is how this ACTUALLY works) he's still considered the "builder".

It would take a special kind of moron to challenge a building contractor when he says something like "We're a leader in building construction," and scream "no that's bullshit, he didn't build those buildings they hired somebody else to do it!"

Please tell me you're not REALLY this stupid.

[wrenchmonkey]

And this question was so precious that I thought it deserved its own special post
Q:

How do you lead the markets in microprocessor design and offer consulting services in semiconductor design without having any ASIC engineers?

A: By subcontracting out the design.

[wrenchmonkey]

Furthermore.
Complete the following sentence:

If all ASICs are semiconductors, but not all semiconductors are ASICs _____

A. Only ASIC engineers can design semiconductors
B. All semiconductor engineers design ASICS
C. Some semiconductor engineers design ASICS
D. I hate BFL, so much that logic is no longer a factor to me.

[PuertoLibre]

Not BFL, it's sub-contractors who made the actual ASIC if I recall correctly. Everything was outsourced, as was evident from you always explaining why everything was done away from your direct control. (In stark contrast to why Avalon got things done quickly)

I quite enjoy when this fact gets brought up after BFL's monkey runs off on diatribes about how they created an ASIC. 

I quite enjoy when the trolls grasp at smaller and smaller straws, when their arguments get completely destroyed by facts and logic.

That like me paying an olympic runner to run in my race. Then state on the record that I am the fastest in the world!

Small details....you know....small details....

[wrenchmonkey]

Not BFL, it's sub-contractors who made the actual ASIC if I recall correctly. Everything was outsourced, as was evident from you always explaining why everything was done away from your direct control. (In stark contrast to why Avalon got things done quickly)

I quite enjoy when this fact gets brought up after BFL's monkey runs off on diatribes about how they created an ASIC.  

I quite enjoy when the trolls grasp at smaller and smaller straws, when their arguments get completely destroyed by facts and logic.

That like me paying an olympic runner to run in my race. Then state on the record that I am the fastest in the world!

Small details....you know....small details....

More like Honda paying Nicky Hayden to race their motorcycles, and then declaring themselves to be a leader in motorcycle racing.

[PuertoLibre]

[shill bullshit]

They're not ASIC engineers by trade. So what's the best thing to do when you need a product/component from a trade you don't specialize in? Find somebody who DOES specialize in that, and hire them to design that component for you. Then subcontract with another company to manufacture that component.

[more shill bullshit]

Oh, so then they were lying when they posted "Butterfly Labs (BF Labs Inc.), a market leader in microprocessor design [...]" and "The company offers a range of products and consulting services in semiconductor design."?

Sounds to me like they are ASIC designers.  Or maybe they're a bunch of fucking liars?




Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20130129102300/http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html

So in order to be a market leader, you can't have outside help, or subcontracted components? Come on, you can't be real... Who put you up to this? Am I on Punk'd?

To be a market leader, you have to have in house engineers who know what they are doing.

Like Avalon. (See that anooyying fact?)
In this way, the products and people can come together under one roof or one unified management and the products issues are resolved quickly and on time.

Not by paying Bob in France who only works on Monday and Tuesdays, but hes occupied elsewhere and therefore must attend to his priority projects. Or working as a possible bank teller (no, this parody is very much not a joke).

I know, facts bother the mind of a shill. I should know, I am a Master BFL Shill myself.

When confronted with such issues, deflect. Always deflect. Simply comment on the color of the ground today. That will surely get your mind off that reality. Or simply get you off. One or the other.

[PuertoLibre]

Not BFL, it's sub-contractors who made the actual ASIC if I recall correctly. Everything was outsourced, as was evident from you always explaining why everything was done away from your direct control. (In stark contrast to why Avalon got things done quickly)

I quite enjoy when this fact gets brought up after BFL's monkey runs off on diatribes about how they created an ASIC.  

I quite enjoy when the trolls grasp at smaller and smaller straws, when their arguments get completely destroyed by facts and logic.

That like me paying an olympic runner to run in my race. Then state on the record that I am the fastest in the world!

Small details....you know....small details....

More like Honda paying Nicky Hayden to race their motorcycles, and then declaring themselves to be a leader in motorcycle racing.

Thats what a sponsor does. They don't hide the company or people that make things happen. In fact, often they tout it.

But I assume this small argument went right over your capacity as a human being.

I'm going to take this as your lighthearted admission to being wrong.  Give yourself a pat on the back [of your head], it feels good to admit it once and awhile, doesn't it?