[OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading

[Ente]

This thread surely got a funny turn..

Ente

[1714686240]

1714686240

[CambioBTC]

This thread surely got a funny turn..

Ente

+1,   

[CambioBTC]

On an unrelated note:
Are there any vacant positions at Bitfinex? I would really be interested in working for you (customer service rep?) and would also
be willing to relocate to HK if necessary (I´m very young and don´t have much responsibilites )

I don't think Raphael or Giancarlo actually live in HK. Still, a vibrant city, so it wouldn't be a bad choice ;-)

Ente

please PM your CV,

thanks

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

Ente,

Appears that you were not so right about your assumption,

Dubai was the Wife and my first choice,
but the American Embassy has Travel Warnings
against Americans traveling in Arab Countries.

We were just talking about making Hong Kong our base two days ago,
not to work for someone, but to simply not have to have a 12:00 noon sleep schedule
in order to be on China's schedule.


Happy Trading !


P.S.:  

Ok, it's almost 12:00 noon here now, going to go and try to force myself to sleep now, the human body is not programmed to sleep at Noon ! Appears that I'm in luck, there is also India and Perth, Australia both not too far off of China's Time Zone, anything formerly British Occupied works for me, I'm American, but I also cling stead-fast to our British Roots, the English language being one of them, makes life Easier, which is why we had considered Hong Kong having British ties.

[nrd525]

Lending (aka CFD) rates are trending down as I predicted earlier.

The trend will reverse in the short-term if there is high volatility (or as lenders withdraw funds), but I think we are on a long-term downward trend to approximately 20% APR (or 0.005%/day).

If you look at the history of the BTC rate (historically as low as 2-5% APR), it is possible that US lending rates could drop as low as 5-10% APR.

[MustMan]

Lending (aka CFD) rates are trending down as I predicted earlier.

The trend will reverse in the short-term if there is high volatility (or as lenders withdraw funds), but I think we are on a long-term downward trend to approximately 20% APR (or 0.005%/day).

If you look at the history of the BTC rate (historically as low as 2-5% APR), it is possible that US lending rates could drop as low as 5-10% APR.

If US lending rates really go that low as 5-10% APR in the future, then it is not much incentives for people to lend rates here.

[johnny211]

If US lending rates really go that low as 5-10% APR in the future, then it is not much incentives for people to lend rates here.

In which case people may very well stop lending until rates go up again, apparently lenders find these rates attractive enough for now. I'm curious as to how removal of the flash rates would affect rates though.

Obviously restoring the higher leverage levels would massively increase rate volatility.

[aragalie]

If US lending rates really go that low as 5-10% APR in the future, then it is not much incentives for people to lend rates here.

In which case people may very well stop lending until rates go up again, apparently lenders find these rates attractive enough for now. I'm curious as to how removal of the flash rates would affect rates though.

Obviously restoring the higher leverage levels would massively increase rate volatility.

What you might want to take into account is the opportunity costs. As a lender, the money you have at BFX are "stuck" there, compared to let's say an FX platform where you can trade any of the many, many pairs or CFDs. With BFX you have a binary choice: lend at the prevailing market rates or don't lend at all. As such, in the short term, the logical (and financially optimal strategy) is to always lend your money, even at very very low rates. 1$ pe day is better than no dollar at all.

Sure, some people will kid themselves that instead of lending at 0.05%/day it's better to wait for a few days and then lend at 0.2%/day. You do the math and see that you can wait up to 4 days without lending and you'll still do the same benefit (actually a bit less if you're compounding). But, that is speculation on the interest rate movement so an identical behavior to trading, and something that i would venture to assume lenders don't want to do as a principle (otherwise it makes more sense to just trade on margin with your funds).

Yes, in the long term, if rates drop dramatically, the lenders will pull out their money and move them somewhere else. But, for the money that are in BFX at any point in time, the optimal financial strategy is to lend them out at whatever rate you can. Thus the reason for "auto lend" option and the prevailing use of the Flash Rate rate to auto-lend the money on a recurring basis.

If you take all that i've said before into consideration, you will see why very low lending rates are possible and even probable, and such a situation can only improve/reverse if BFX takes active steps in limiting the minimum rate.


But i would worry less on the above and more on the fact that the lending cost is being hiked by 50% whenever desired....curious how many of the lenders did the math on that one. Not that it matters anyways

[TwinWinNerD]

If US lending rates really go that low as 5-10% APR in the future, then it is not much incentives for people to lend rates here.

In which case people may very well stop lending until rates go up again, apparently lenders find these rates attractive enough for now. I'm curious as to how removal of the flash rates would affect rates though.

Obviously restoring the higher leverage levels would massively increase rate volatility.

What you might want to take into account is the opportunity costs. As a lender, the money you have at BFX are "stuck" there, compared to let's say an FX platform where you can trade any of the many, many pairs or CFDs. With BFX you have a binary choice: lend at the prevailing market rates or don't lend at all. As such, in the short term, the logical (and financially optimal strategy) is to always lend your money, even at very very low rates. 1$ pe day is better than no dollar at all.

Sure, some people will kid themselves that instead of lending at 0.05%/day it's better to wait for a few days and then lend at 0.2%/day. You do the math and see that you can wait up to 4 days without lending and you'll still do the same benefit (actually a bit less if you're compounding). But, that is speculation on the interest rate movement so an identical behavior to trading, and something that i would venture to assume lenders don't want to do as a principle (otherwise it makes more sense to just trade on margin with your funds).

Yes, in the long term, if rates drop dramatically, the lenders will pull out their money and move them somewhere else. But, for the money that are in BFX at any point in time, the optimal financial strategy is to lend them out at whatever rate you can. Thus the reason for "auto lend" option and the prevailing use of the Flash Rate rate to auto-lend the money on a recurring basis.

If you take all that i've said before into consideration, you will see why very low lending rates are possible and even probable, and such a situation can only improve/reverse if BFX takes active steps in limiting the minimum rate.


But i would worry less on the above and more on the fact that the lending cost is being hiked by 50% whenever desired....curious how many of the lenders did the math on that one. Not that it matters anyways

Very true, this is exactely my situation. Pulling out the money wouldn't make much sense, because i think rates will go above 0.1% soon again.

If the rates stay at below 0.1% for an extended period of time with no signs of improvement, then i think some of the money will leave the lending pool. Lets see...

[DoubleSwapper]

If US lending rates really go that low as 5-10% APR in the future, then it is not much incentives for people to lend rates here.

In which case people may very well stop lending until rates go up again, apparently lenders find these rates attractive enough for now. I'm curious as to how removal of the flash rates would affect rates though.

Obviously restoring the higher leverage levels would massively increase rate volatility.

What you might want to take into account is the opportunity costs. As a lender, the money you have at BFX are "stuck" there, compared to let's say an FX platform where you can trade any of the many, many pairs or CFDs. With BFX you have a binary choice: lend at the prevailing market rates or don't lend at all. As such, in the short term, the logical (and financially optimal strategy) is to always lend your money, even at very very low rates. 1$ pe day is better than no dollar at all.

Sure, some people will kid themselves that instead of lending at 0.05%/day it's better to wait for a few days and then lend at 0.2%/day. You do the math and see that you can wait up to 4 days without lending and you'll still do the same benefit (actually a bit less if you're compounding). But, that is speculation on the interest rate movement so an identical behavior to trading, and something that i would venture to assume lenders don't want to do as a principle (otherwise it makes more sense to just trade on margin with your funds).

Yes, in the long term, if rates drop dramatically, the lenders will pull out their money and move them somewhere else. But, for the money that are in BFX at any point in time, the optimal financial strategy is to lend them out at whatever rate you can. Thus the reason for "auto lend" option and the prevailing use of the Flash Rate rate to auto-lend the money on a recurring basis.

If you take all that i've said before into consideration, you will see why very low lending rates are possible and even probable, and such a situation can only improve/reverse if BFX takes active steps in limiting the minimum rate.


But i would worry less on the above and more on the fact that the lending cost is being hiked by 50% whenever desired....curious how many of the lenders did the math on that one. Not that it matters anyways

This is only true if you are a "pure" lender though. While I'm personally mostly lending and not trading you can make so much more money in times of increased volatility that I don't consider it worth it having you money lend out and unavailable for 2 days for sub 0.1 % while you can easily make 5-15 % gains trading the market in obvious situations such as the short to 550 we just had half an hour ago.

I feel we have some kind of fundamental problem though. With the lending rate approaching 20 % compounded interest a year we can see exactly why offering general insurance was not wise at all. People saw the (obviously not sustainable) compounded 3700 % to 248 % annual lending rate and with the insurance in mind started treating BFX lending as some kind of savings account. I wouldn't even wonder about people taking a classic bank loan to lend that money out at BFX. With every situation which seems too good to be true long term arbitrage will hit the market. Why would people pay 250 % interest a year if you can get money basically for free at the classic liquidity markets at the moment. It will take huge bullish momentum to get the lending rate up and even then I think liquidity has increased so much because of the perceived attractiveness that the 1 % times are over for good.

I would much, much more prefer leverage back to 4, no insurance whatsoever for standard swaps and building up of a sufficient insurance fund for those who want to pay 30 % to insure their loan. That would feel like engaging in a total return swap and not like putting your money in a savings account. Let's see how many people were willing to lend out their money at 0.0842 % after one or two flash crashes in which they lose 10 % of their deposit.
The insurance was a bad idea. In a serious market you would have something like call liability for the traders which a hong kong magic internet money trading company would unfortuantely not be able to realize though.

[aragalie]

I would much, much more prefer leverage back to 4, no insurance whatsoever for standard swaps and building up of an sufficient insurance fund for those who want to pay 30 % to insure their loan. That would feel like engaging in a total return swap and not like putting your money in a savings account. Let's see how many people were willing to lend out their money at 0.0842 % after one or two flash crashes in which they lose 10 % of their deposit.
The insurance was a bad idea. In a serious market you would have something like call liability for the traders which a hong kong magic internet money trading company would unfortuantely not be able to realize though.

Please understand there is no "insurance" in the normal sense of the word. If the market crashes/BFX gets hacked/exploited/etc., and the losses for lenders are higher than the reserves of BFX (which, as they indicated are about $1.5 millions), then money are lost for good and nobody will give them back to you. The recent announcement was basically a (poorly worded) justification to remove the "insurance pool" of $50k, which btw one might also argue that was no insurance at all due to our inability as users to actually check that those $50k were in an account in the first place.

Also, i don't think the drop in lending rates has anything to do with the newly announced "insurance". Do you really believe that people who use their brains assumed that their money are somehow now magically safeguarded by the Bitcoin FairyGodmother, and went on a "lending spree"?

[MustMan]

Yes, in the long term, if rates drop dramatically, the lenders will pull out their money and move them somewhere else. But, for the money that are in BFX at any point in time, the optimal financial strategy is to lend them out at whatever rate you can. Thus the reason for "auto lend" option and the prevailing use of the Flash Rate rate to auto-lend the money on a recurring basis.

If you take all that i've said before into consideration, you will see why very low lending rates are possible and even probable, and such a situation can only improve/reverse if BFX takes active steps in limiting the minimum rate.

My guess is that if most of the lenders take the same strategy of lending out their money at whatever rate they can, seems it is the case gradually happening right now, then in the long term, lending rates would be becoming more and more competing and that will inevitably lead to a very very low lending rate beyond anybody could think of.

[Ente]

Guys, get your 101 "Free market: Demand and supply" together! :-P

The only reason why swap rates go down, is, because it'#s unattractive to lend and do margin trading. We are in bull territory, for months, and will probably stay here for another while.
It'll go up to rates "noone can imagine" as soon as the next wave, cycle, bubble, madness starts over again.

Until then, yes, flash rate is good enough for me, lending out in USD.
I agree, trying to tweak the rate manually leaves you out of the loop too much. And is more of a hassle anyway.

Ente

[CambioBTC]

Guys, get your 101 "Free market: Demand and supply" together! :-P

The only reason why swap rates go down, is, because it'#s unattractive to lend and do margin trading. We are in bull territory, for months, and will probably stay here for another while.
It'll go up to rates "noone can imagine" as soon as the next wave, cycle, bubble, madness starts over again.

Until then, yes, flash rate is good enough for me, lending out in USD.
I agree, trying to tweak the rate manually leaves you out of the loop too much. And is more of a hassle anyway.

Ente

+1, 

[GurungBoi]

FIXEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[CambioBTC]

Wow,

Thanks BitFinex Team,

Just discovered that the BitFinex website
is actually fluid, being a WebSite designer
at times on my own projects I was surprised
to discover this.

Currently in Cancun, Mexico and yet to get out and
source the much needed  Nvidia geforce video cards,
to allow me to set up a 4 to 6 monitor setup I'm currently
working with only 2-monitors.

I'm sure you designed the BitFinex site to be fluid to work
with Tablets and Cellular Phones, but works great with
Fox Splitter, a add-on for FireFox also:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/fox-splitter/

This has helped solve a MAJOR problem for me, thanks for the "ForeTHOUGHT" !

Big Thumbs-Up to the BitFinex Team !

[CambioBTC]

Just thinking about the new OCO - One cancel the other Feature,

Nice,
But I also remember you guys saying that if one gets partially filled
that it still cancels the other, that would mean that in all actuality
that a partially filled order could result in leaving a open position
without a stop, naked.

Also, shouldn't the other stop not used be automatically greyed
out or something upon choosing if one is going to buy or sell,
that extra stop being there needing to be deleted would be
better served if automatically greyed out and rendered in-active, no  ?


Never can get any "Trading" questions answered in this thread,
everyone is only concerned with lending, geez !

[BitBits]

Is "Hide offer" function cancelled, or is it not working?

I used to work with plain horrible programmer on some project a while back, where every fucking single time some modification to the script is made by him, some other feature on the site get's screwed up and stops working or is malfunctioning, because of the new change introduced. The worst part is that when the site is heavily multifunctional, there is no way to know which feature gets screwed, until one tries to use it. It was really becoming a nightmare when these secondary issues were getting "fixed" and thus the troubles where just mounting at a snowball rate, with every next fucking "fix".  I really hope this is not the case at Bitfinex, I honestly do!!!

[BitBits]

... Never can get any "Trading" questions answered in this thread,
everyone is only concerned with lending, geez !

Makes one think why, doesn't it?
...Just a thought: Could it be that it is YOUR particular questions that don't get answered?

[flower1024]

Is "Hide offer" function cancelled, or is it not working?

I used to work with plain horrible programmer on some project a while back, where every fucking single time some modification to the script is made by him, some other feature on the site get's screwed up and stops working or is malfunctioning, because of the new change introduced. The worst part is that when the site is heavily multifunctional, there is no way to know which feature gets screwed, until one tries to use it. It was really becoming a nightmare when these secondary issues were getting "fixed" and thus the troubles where just mounting at a snowball rate, with every next fucking "fix".  I really hope this is not the case at Bitfinex, I honestly do!!!

tell your "programmer" about a brand new innovation: unit- and integration tests

[BitBits]

tell your "programmer" about a brand new innovation: unit- and integration tests

Thank you, I do appreciate the advice, but like I said, that "encounter" was in the past and I did had to tell him "differently". ...I don't really know the whereabouts of that programmer from that point on.